Spirituality? Old Testament Judgement.

farmergiles · 03-12-2009, 12:50 AM

God will remind us what we already know. That the human race is about to reap what it`s sowed. It`s forgotten the message and worships the creeds.

Peace seeker · 03-12-2009, 12:57 AM

i agree FG.

We are missing the forest and focusing on the tree (creeds).

Its only natural to reap what we sowed

The Rev · 03-12-2009, 05:42 AM

I can't imagine what it would be like to be the God of the Old Testament. Something like an 8-year old standing over an anthill with a magnifying glass (and a sense of righteous indignation). That just doesn't sound right to me.

The Rev

**SageTree** · 03-12-2009, 02:49 PM

I've always enjoyed the old testament for its 'hiSTORYcal' side. I still enjoy reading about what other believe and try to see larger metaphores like in Exodus, where lost people are searching for a promised land. And try to ponder the basis for laws in Leviticus...I don't think pork is popular because you have to cook it alot to make it safe, at this point in time, and it goes bad really easy, bad for people in hot climates. The Judges are mostly anthropoligical structure for understanding the times, with some good metaphores. The story of Samuel being called by God in a dream is a good tale. Around King Davids time there is alot of war and gore. Ecclesiastes and Proverbs are interesting on a logical basis, more escoteric thoughts on God, and the prophets are kind of exciting to read and think about their calls for social justice and adherance to living justly are powerful.

But

Do I get the same feelings as when I read the Words of the Gospel? Do I see the 'same' God? No to both. The Hebrew Testement tells me more about their faith in a historical way and understanding. The Gospels are great! Acts is a good history of new sense of purpose, but I feel the rest of the Christian Scripture is almost as scarey as the Angry or Scarey as the Old Testament God.

Then there are the discrepanecies like Paul and Jude making referance to the Book of Enoch, one of the most populous finds at Nag Hamaddi. Why isn't that included? Clitically looking at how the Bible came to be disrupts my faith in it that I have. Which is why I really centrically focus on Gospels and the few Wisdom books. These inspire me more often.

In my Humble Opinion.
SageTree

JcP · 03-12-2009, 05:26 PM

I dig the Old Testament along with the New Testament.
God used to be an AAAASSSHOOOLLLEEE, then he was just sort of a brat.

God seems to be growing up along with us. The soon-to-be New New Testament might show a God who actually has his act together! Who knows!

Sugar420 · 03-12-2009, 11:26 PM

you are reading the O.T. wrong if you think God is such the bad guy

but as for judgment, dont you think the judgment of the most impartial and righteous font of existence is the best judge of the downpressor man and the multitudes of wickedness?
i mean we are talking about the most compassionate and ever loving Jah

so this is why we should spread this message to everyone: Repent! the Kingdom of Jah is at hand

Peace seeker · 03-12-2009, 11:40 PM

Jcp you re confusing God, with people.

People can be bad. God is a father and a (good) father would never do something bad to his children.

God didnt write the old or new testament. Humans did.

Some parts are very wise and others are dogma. Dogma that was carried through the years. Those parts dont apply to todays more open minded spiritual approaches (at least i hope that we re more open minded, although sometimes i have my doubts).

JcP · 03-13-2009, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peace seeker

Jcp you re confusing God, with people.

People can be bad. God is a father and a (good) father would never do something bad to his children.

God didnt write the old or new testament. Humans did.

Some parts are very wise and others are dogma. Dogma that was carried through the years. Those parts dont apply to todays more open minded spiritual approaches (at least i hope that we re more open minded, although sometimes i have my doubts).

wait, back up.

I was making a completely "devils advocate post" as I don't believe the bible to be anything but a creation myth and a moral code told through personified astrology.

People can be bad, but God would never do something bad to his children? Says who? That's a great belief you have. But that's as proveable (and logical, based on the bible) as me saying God is an eggplant. What would lead you to believe God would never harm his children when he kills a shit-ton of them in the text? When he allows the existence of Hell? When he provides temptation to a consciousness he created (knowing full well it has the potential to be tempted), then punishes his creation for giving into the temptation he tempted it with? That's like what a really dickish kid does to a dog...puts the treat on the dog's nose then if the dog goes to bite it, the kid punches the dog in the nose.

I do not have ANY desire to debate belief with you...you can believe anything you want...but if you apply the same criteria of what makes someone an asshole to the actions of the old testament God, he's a big one...

God in the Old Testament is vindictive and plays mindgames with his subjects...my favorite being the "test of faith" on the mountain.
If a human being behaved in such a way...if you boss made you prove your loyalty to the company by killing your only child...and at the last minute going, "lolz just joshing ya. wanted to see if you would do it" you'd think he was an asshole.
The New Testament God isn't as much of a childish prick as the Old Testament one, but he's still a pretty shallow God. The New New Testament, hopefully, will have a God in his late twenties, early thirties in terms of maturity and behavior to his "children."

So I'm not sure what you're taking issue with with regards to my presentation of an evolving God in the Bible. Would you like a list of reasons I think Old-Testament God is an ass, and New Testament God is a bit more adult (but still pretty silly)?
Or are you just taking issue with me calling your God a childish asshole? I don't mean to offend, but that is my perception of him, according to the available evidence of his action(s)

Peace seeker · 03-13-2009, 05:48 AM

By calling God names, you re only punishing yourself JcP. The sooner u realise that, the less confusion and anger your life will have.

God is not the Old or New Testament, so you can (so) easily judge Him.

God is the whole universe and way beoynd that.

God (imho) doesnt let evil in peoples lives.

People invite evil in their lives with their actions.

**SageTree** · 03-13-2009, 10:18 AM

I think that labeling what is right and wrong here isn't going to really go far in seeing the others side. Maybe you can agree on what to do in this life accoring to what you believe, and then have a talk about the particulars later???

If JCPs judgement is based on a God of the Old Testement, it's mearly his opinion, he can't be wrong, he never said Fact, anywhere.

"I don't mean to offend, but that is my perception of him, according to the available evidence of his action(s)"

Raised in a culture where people tell you constantly about the infaliable word of God, can lead one to use that same logic to make this statement, he uttered.

I think that labeling God positively or negatively is punishment to yourself because it limits our potential to experiance It, without attachment.

JcP · 03-13-2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peace seeker

By calling God names, you re only punishing yourself JcP. The sooner u realise that, the less confusion and anger your life will have.

God is not the Old or New Testament, so you can (so) easily judge Him.

God is the whole universe and way beoynd that.

God (imho) doesnt let evil in peoples lives.

People invite evil in their lives with their actions.

That's your opinion. And more power to you!

Again, no interest in debating belief. I do want to reiterate one more time that I do not believe God to be the God of the Bible. That "God" is the asshole. I think you misread my intention in my original post.
If you don't believe that the bible is the word of God either, then we're on the same page. If you do believe the Bible to be the word of God, then I'm curious how you can reconcile something like...the flood with a compassionate creator? Or how you can reconcile the example I mentioned last post with an "adult" God? etc etc.

My God is loving, albeit slightly aloof, and trying his/her best to make things right. Just like me! Isn't that a coinkydink?

Peace seeker · 03-14-2009, 04:47 AM

i certainly dont believe that the Old or New Testament are the exact word of God

They were written a few hundred years ago when prophets had a different approach to religion.

i certainly dont agree with the dogma theories either

**SageTree** · 03-14-2009, 07:34 AM

^^ Nice positive response

Vague yet concise enough, to keep the conversation rolling.

JcP · 03-14-2009, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peace seeker

i certainly dont believe that the Old or New Testament are the exact word of God

They were written a few hundred years ago when prophets had a different approach to religion.

i certainly dont agree with the dogma theories either

cool beans, so we're actually in agreement!

do you agree that the God in the old testament behaves much more "childlike" than the God in the new testament?

Paranoid Android · 03-15-2009, 01:08 AM

The time of reckoning is upon us

For better or for worse..

Peace seeker · 03-15-2009, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JcP

do you agree that the God in the old testament behaves much more "childlike" than the God in the new testament?

With all respect to the Bible and those who wrote it, we cant judge God by what is written by people and not by Him.

Some parts are indeed very dogmatic (and judgemental) and they dont focus on real spirituality, but they rather persuade the reader to "follow rules".

But theres also parts in both Old and new testament with great wisdom.

Imho, you gotta read between the lines sometimes. When both books were written, they prolly made alot of sense to the people of that era.

But we have evolved since that time

JcP · 03-15-2009, 10:10 AM

.....right, I know. We both don't believe God is in the old and new testament.

What I'm asking is that if you look at the God presented in the Old and New Testament (a God I don't believe to be the 'real' God), he seems to have grown up. He was an asshole in the old testament, and he was still a jerk, but less so, in the New Testament.

That was my point in my original post.

Sugar420 · 03-15-2009, 10:47 AM

jcp can you give more explanation of why you think that way? because i think such an attitude comes from a biased reading, or from relying on other ppl's opinions about what the bible says
the way i read it, it's the humans that were pretty jerky back in the day, and they still are

Peace seeker · 03-15-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by v3d4

it's the humans that were pretty jerky back in the day, and they still are

^^^^^^

**SageTree** · 03-15-2009, 12:10 PM

This is a book that we had a study group on at the Unitarian Universalist Church I attend a few years ago.

Who Wrote the Bible?: Amazon.co.uk: Richard Elliott Friedman: Books

Interesting read. Kinda sets up some things that historically make things fall into common sense better.

Nice topic you all. This is the ideal way for people to talk about belief.

Congratulations.

Loving Kindness,
Sage

03-12-2009, 12:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
farmergiles Yahookan Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sick of the hatred and the lies Posts: 7,796 Thanks: 2,280 Thanked 3,746 Times in 2,551 Posts	Spirituality? Old Testament Judgement. God will remind us what we already know. That the human race is about to reap what it`s sowed. It`s forgotten the message and worships the creeds. __________________ Cultivate a stoic calmness *Fuck the Monkeys* Every Kind of Vice

03-12-2009, 12:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
Peace seeker free the herb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 6,844 Thanks: 773 Thanked 551 Times in 385 Posts	i agree FG. We are missing the forest and focusing on the tree (creeds). Its only natural to reap what we sowed Last edited by Peace seeker; 03-12-2009 at 06:11 AM.

03-12-2009, 05:42 AM	#3 (permalink)
The Rev Clear Light Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,863 Thanks: 5,015 Thanked 5,419 Times in 2,864 Posts	I can't imagine what it would be like to be the God of the Old Testament. Something like an 8-year old standing over an anthill with a magnifying glass (and a sense of righteous indignation). That just doesn't sound right to me. The Rev __________________ Budforce - My Friend August 29, 1973- May 25, 2012

03-12-2009, 02:49 PM	#4 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	I've always enjoyed the old testament for its 'hiSTORYcal' side. I still enjoy reading about what other believe and try to see larger metaphores like in Exodus, where lost people are searching for a promised land. And try to ponder the basis for laws in Leviticus...I don't think pork is popular because you have to cook it alot to make it safe, at this point in time, and it goes bad really easy, bad for people in hot climates. The Judges are mostly anthropoligical structure for understanding the times, with some good metaphores. The story of Samuel being called by God in a dream is a good tale. Around King Davids time there is alot of war and gore. Ecclesiastes and Proverbs are interesting on a logical basis, more escoteric thoughts on God, and the prophets are kind of exciting to read and think about their calls for social justice and adherance to living justly are powerful. But Do I get the same feelings as when I read the Words of the Gospel? Do I see the 'same' God? No to both. The Hebrew Testement tells me more about their faith in a historical way and understanding. The Gospels are great! Acts is a good history of new sense of purpose, but I feel the rest of the Christian Scripture is almost as scarey as the Angry or Scarey as the Old Testament God. Then there are the discrepanecies like Paul and Jude making referance to the Book of Enoch, one of the most populous finds at Nag Hamaddi. Why isn't that included? Clitically looking at how the Bible came to be disrupts my faith in it that I have. Which is why I really centrically focus on Gospels and the few Wisdom books. These inspire me more often. In my Humble Opinion. SageTree __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

03-13-2009, 10:18 AM	#10 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	I think that labeling what is right and wrong here isn't going to really go far in seeing the others side. Maybe you can agree on what to do in this life accoring to what you believe, and then have a talk about the particulars later??? If JCPs judgement is based on a God of the Old Testement, it's mearly his opinion, he can't be wrong, he never said Fact, anywhere. "I don't mean to offend, but that is my perception of him, according to the available evidence of his action(s)" Raised in a culture where people tell you constantly about the infaliable word of God, can lead one to use that same logic to make this statement, he uttered. I think that labeling God positively or negatively is punishment to yourself because it limits our potential to experiance It, without attachment. __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

03-12-2009, 11:26 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sugar420 Freedom Bird Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 6,138 Thanks: 41 Thanked 179 Times in 730 Posts	you are reading the O.T. wrong if you think God is such the bad guy but as for judgment, dont you think the judgment of the most impartial and righteous font of existence is the best judge of the downpressor man and the multitudes of wickedness? i mean we are talking about the most compassionate and ever loving Jah so this is why we should spread this message to everyone: Repent! the Kingdom of Jah is at hand

03-12-2009, 11:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
Peace seeker free the herb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 6,844 Thanks: 773 Thanked 551 Times in 385 Posts	Jcp you re confusing God, with people. People can be bad. God is a father and a (good) father would never do something bad to his children. God didnt write the old or new testament. Humans did. Some parts are very wise and others are dogma. Dogma that was carried through the years. Those parts dont apply to todays more open minded spiritual approaches (at least i hope that we re more open minded, although sometimes i have my doubts).

03-13-2009, 05:48 AM	#9 (permalink)
Peace seeker free the herb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 6,844 Thanks: 773 Thanked 551 Times in 385 Posts	By calling God names, you re only punishing yourself JcP. The sooner u realise that, the less confusion and anger your life will have. God is not the Old or New Testament, so you can (so) easily judge Him. God is the whole universe and way beoynd that. God (imho) doesnt let evil in peoples lives. People invite evil in their lives with their actions.

03-14-2009, 04:47 AM	#12 (permalink)
Peace seeker free the herb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 6,844 Thanks: 773 Thanked 551 Times in 385 Posts	i certainly dont believe that the Old or New Testament are the exact word of God They were written a few hundred years ago when prophets had a different approach to religion. i certainly dont agree with the dogma theories either

03-14-2009, 07:34 AM	#13 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	^^ Nice positive response Vague yet concise enough, to keep the conversation rolling. __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

03-15-2009, 01:08 AM	#15 (permalink)
Paranoid Android Down is the new up. Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 2,991 Thanks: 29 Thanked 36 Times in 31 Posts	The time of reckoning is upon us For better or for worse.. __________________ "We're not scaremongering, this is really happening."

03-15-2009, 10:47 AM	#18 (permalink)
Sugar420 Freedom Bird Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 6,138 Thanks: 41 Thanked 179 Times in 730 Posts	jcp can you give more explanation of why you think that way? because i think such an attitude comes from a biased reading, or from relying on other ppl's opinions about what the bible says the way i read it, it's the humans that were pretty jerky back in the day, and they still are

03-15-2009, 12:10 PM	#20 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	This is a book that we had a study group on at the Unitarian Universalist Church I attend a few years ago. Who Wrote the Bible?: Amazon.co.uk: Richard Elliott Friedman: Books Interesting read. Kinda sets up some things that historically make things fall into common sense better. Nice topic you all. This is the ideal way for people to talk about belief. Congratulations. Loving Kindness, Sage __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread: