Question: Who has more Freedom?? - Page 2

Meth0d · 05-07-2009, 10:24 AM

I think man does, man's though process is more logical then instinctual so we have a greater capacity for choice. I believe that ability to choose make us more free.

**SageTree** · 05-07-2009, 10:43 AM

Is choice our instinct?

Cerebro · 05-07-2009, 04:30 PM

i dont think so, survival is our instinct
but we have survival laid on a platter for us
so we have the luxury of choice

B. · 05-07-2009, 05:59 PM

I say animals for sure... mainly because, as far as I am aware, they are not conscious of their own plight/mortality... they react on instinct and generally do not suffer the same levels of self inflicted stress that humans do.

Even an animal that is not truly free, say rabbits living in an urban park... they are free within the confines of the park, but venturing beyond the park would be foolish... not truly free you would think, but the rabbit is not aware of this... it just knows to stay in the park... no stress, just instinct. Free within its own world, which is true freedom in my opinion.
I also think this applies to domestic animals... a dog doesn't think he is a dog, he thinks he is a member of your family.

Humans are not free in this world I think, the awareness of our situation takes that from us... even if you break free from materialism, you are still aware of your existence therefore you will always be aware, on a level that no animal can replicate, of your own mortality and impending demise.
We are intellectually aware of our limitations, both self-imposed and dictated by others... we are always aware of future obstacles and chalenges that must be overcome in order to progress... most of all we are aware of the possible futility of our existence. This greatly erodes freedom in my opinion.

Generally speaking, humans and wild animals both have the ability of free will... the free will of humans is of a greater capacity but much more subject to the parameters of the society a person lives within.

NewbieFarmer · 05-08-2009, 09:07 AM

Freedom is basically just an illusion. The only true freedom we have, are our dreams and thoughts.

**SageTree** · 05-08-2009, 09:52 AM

So if animals have the most freedom because 'they don't know their own problems', is freedom not having choices? Freedom to suffer and choose liberation from that seems like there is a greater extreme between suffering and liberation, which would make it a larger expanse between the two. Thus leaving more options in the middle.

So are more options or no options freedom?

Roach · 05-08-2009, 05:55 PM

didn't even require a second thought.

The more "civilized" man becomes the greater the number and complexity are the barriers he builds between what he is...and what he wants to be.

as with everything there are innumerable shades of gray in the gray sciences.

**SageTree** · 05-08-2009, 06:09 PM

Like the harder we work for 'freedom' the higher the prison walls get?

ProfessorMurder · 05-09-2009, 06:17 PM

Isn't this one of those trick philosophy questions, that your suppose to think beyond the question or transcend.

Neither.

They're both subject to man's vice.

Cerebro · 05-10-2009, 12:48 AM

but even slavery contains choice
you choose if you must, or must not
your choice has consequences
how can animals and man be different?
it's crazy

farmergiles · 05-10-2009, 02:46 AM

Some animals are freer than others, a swallow is free to fly from continent to continents, a battery hen can`t even stand up.

Like Cerebro says, humans are animals. The dichotomy of humanity and bestiality is an artificial construct bearing no relation to reality.

Monkey see, monkey do.

B. · 05-10-2009, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageTree

So if animals have the most freedom because 'they don't know their own problems', is freedom not having choices? Freedom to suffer and choose liberation from that seems like there is a greater extreme between suffering and liberation, which would make it a larger expanse between the two. Thus leaving more options in the middle.

So are more options or no options freedom?

The more I think about it, the more I realise that freedom can be defined in a number of ways...

Be it mental freedom, physical freedom, freedom of choice (ie control over your own destiny) ...it all depends what is meant by freedom I suppose.

An animal (excluding humans), in my eyes, certainly has more mental freedom as they are not subject to the constructs of "civilised" society and are unaware of their very existence on an intellectual level. I know that being anaware of your own freedom doesn't sound much like freedom, but I think it is.
However, this very reason for mental freedom is also the reason for a wild animals lack of control over their own fate. People have more freedom of choice as, like you say, there are more options open to humans due to the awareness of these options and ability to manipulate your own personal reality.

Like Farmergiles says, physical freedom is comepletely dependent on the situation of a species or individual... a Swallow has more physical freedom than a battery hen, a white middle class westerner has more physical freedom than a poor person from the Phillipines or somewhere similar.

All shades of grey as someone pointed out.

My revised answer is... animals are more free in some senses and humans in others.

**SageTree** · 05-10-2009, 08:06 AM

Both is always a safe answer in a philosphical conversation. And probably alot more correct that pure speculation.

420smokeman · 05-10-2009, 08:43 AM

what is freedom?? imo nothing is free till everything is free because every little thing is actually the whole universe, kinda like a hologram. the universe has laws, does that mean we are not free?? no cause we are the universe. we are freedom and love and peace itself, we "think" we are "something" which causes all the problams, in reality we are nothing.. and everything, IMO complete freedom will not manifest and become apparent in physical reality untill all matter becomes consciouse and aware of itself. cause in the reality beyond matter and "all our minds" we are all completley free and the same.. every particle... cause what are the particles appeaaring in?? YOU!!! so imo freedom is all that exists, yet we think we are not free and seperate from freedom... trying to get free, all of recorded history is the species trying to get free and understand everything...... evolving, but what are we evolving to?? IMO to relize who we are. the entire universe of physicall matter is about expirencing duality, all possibillitys good and bad, so it could go though all the stages to wake up out of duality, its a huge ass expirence. eventually you will see the pointlessness of it all and wake up out of the illusion, and when everyone does this we wil be able to expirence or not expirence the illusion with the knowing of what it is.. kinda like a lucid dream.

ProfessorMurder · 05-10-2009, 09:32 AM

I think there maybe a problem with the question.

A species (humans) vs. an entire ecological system (serveral species)?
Already seems biased toward animals.
Now, if the question were 'who has more freedom a dog or a man?' that you could answer.

You have the freedom to pay taxes, register with selective service, and go to mandatory public schooling.

View Poll Results: Who has more Freedom, Man or Animals?
Man	9	32.14%
Animals	12	42.86%
Unsure...	7	25.00%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

05-07-2009, 10:24 AM	#21 (permalink)
Meth0d Senator of Sativa Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: In my Head Posts: 2,113 Thanks: 9 Thanked 50 Times in 36 Posts	I think man does, man's though process is more logical then instinctual so we have a greater capacity for choice. I believe that ability to choose make us more free. __________________ -Life begins at 3am Vive La Revolution :finger: -My Rods and Cones are freakin out man!

05-07-2009, 10:43 AM	#22 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	Is choice our instinct? __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

05-07-2009, 05:59 PM	#24 (permalink)
B. Drexciyan Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 779 Thanks: 22 Thanked 96 Times in 72 Posts	I say animals for sure... mainly because, as far as I am aware, they are not conscious of their own plight/mortality... they react on instinct and generally do not suffer the same levels of self inflicted stress that humans do. Even an animal that is not truly free, say rabbits living in an urban park... they are free within the confines of the park, but venturing beyond the park would be foolish... not truly free you would think, but the rabbit is not aware of this... it just knows to stay in the park... no stress, just instinct. Free within its own world, which is true freedom in my opinion. I also think this applies to domestic animals... a dog doesn't think he is a dog, he thinks he is a member of your family. Humans are not free in this world I think, the awareness of our situation takes that from us... even if you break free from materialism, you are still aware of your existence therefore you will always be aware, on a level that no animal can replicate, of your own mortality and impending demise. We are intellectually aware of our limitations, both self-imposed and dictated by others... we are always aware of future obstacles and chalenges that must be overcome in order to progress... most of all we are aware of the possible futility of our existence. This greatly erodes freedom in my opinion. Generally speaking, humans and wild animals both have the ability of free will... the free will of humans is of a greater capacity but much more subject to the parameters of the society a person lives within. __________________ The Lizard-Man makes his living as a freak... Sound Cloud photos Last edited by B.; 05-07-2009 at 06:09 PM.

05-08-2009, 09:52 AM	#26 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	So if animals have the most freedom because 'they don't know their own problems', is freedom not having choices? Freedom to suffer and choose liberation from that seems like there is a greater extreme between suffering and liberation, which would make it a larger expanse between the two. Thus leaving more options in the middle. So are more options or no options freedom? __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

05-08-2009, 09:07 AM	#25 (permalink)
NewbieFarmer YaHookan Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: In the middle of the atlantic. Posts: 7 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Freedom is basically just an illusion. The only true freedom we have, are our dreams and thoughts.

05-08-2009, 05:55 PM	#27 (permalink)
Roach Victoria Aut Mors Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7,166 Thanks: 2,368 Thanked 1,984 Times in 1,507 Posts	didn't even require a second thought. The more "civilized" man becomes the greater the number and complexity are the barriers he builds between what he is...and what he wants to be. as with everything there are innumerable shades of gray in the gray sciences. __________________ לזיין את הקופים

05-08-2009, 06:09 PM	#28 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	Like the harder we work for 'freedom' the higher the prison walls get? __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

05-09-2009, 06:17 PM	#29 (permalink)
ProfessorMurder Jackal Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rio Grande Valley, Texas Posts: 1,270 Thanks: 31 Thanked 125 Times in 99 Posts	Isn't this one of those trick philosophy questions, that your suppose to think beyond the question or transcend. Neither. They're both subject to man's vice. __________________ "No contaban con mi astucia!"

05-10-2009, 02:46 AM	#31 (permalink)
farmergiles Yahookan Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sick of the hatred and the lies Posts: 7,793 Thanks: 2,280 Thanked 3,745 Times in 2,550 Posts	Some animals are freer than others, a swallow is free to fly from continent to continents, a battery hen can`t even stand up. Like Cerebro says, humans are animals. The dichotomy of humanity and bestiality is an artificial construct bearing no relation to reality. Monkey see, monkey do. __________________ Cultivate a stoic calmness *Fuck the Monkeys* Every Kind of Vice

05-10-2009, 08:06 AM	#33 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,767 Times in 4,664 Posts	Both is always a safe answer in a philosphical conversation. And probably alot more correct that pure speculation. __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

05-10-2009, 08:43 AM	#34 (permalink)
420smokeman CannabisConnoisseur Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: BC Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 202 Thanked 149 Times in 100 Posts	what is freedom?? imo nothing is free till everything is free because every little thing is actually the whole universe, kinda like a hologram. the universe has laws, does that mean we are not free?? no cause we are the universe. we are freedom and love and peace itself, we "think" we are "something" which causes all the problams, in reality we are nothing.. and everything, IMO complete freedom will not manifest and become apparent in physical reality untill all matter becomes consciouse and aware of itself. cause in the reality beyond matter and "all our minds" we are all completley free and the same.. every particle... cause what are the particles appeaaring in?? YOU!!! so imo freedom is all that exists, yet we think we are not free and seperate from freedom... trying to get free, all of recorded history is the species trying to get free and understand everything...... evolving, but what are we evolving to?? IMO to relize who we are. the entire universe of physicall matter is about expirencing duality, all possibillitys good and bad, so it could go though all the stages to wake up out of duality, its a huge ass expirence. eventually you will see the pointlessness of it all and wake up out of the illusion, and when everyone does this we wil be able to expirence or not expirence the illusion with the knowing of what it is.. kinda like a lucid dream. __________________ cause there aint nothing else to do and any where i go i know im you and i keep coming back forward through to myself Last edited by 420smokeman; 05-10-2009 at 08:53 AM.

05-10-2009, 09:32 AM	#35 (permalink)
ProfessorMurder Jackal Ghoul Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rio Grande Valley, Texas Posts: 1,270 Thanks: 31 Thanked 125 Times in 99 Posts	I think there maybe a problem with the question. A species (humans) vs. an entire ecological system (serveral species)? Already seems biased toward animals. Now, if the question were 'who has more freedom a dog or a man?' that you could answer. You have the freedom to pay taxes, register with selective service, and go to mandatory public schooling. __________________ "No contaban con mi astucia!"

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