verklingen

renob

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Waves

if it was a lack of belief why would you need paragraphs and paragraphs of information and rhetoric to back up your "lack of belief"

i dont get when atheists say that. everything is belief. belief is built into humans. atheists just choose to believe in chaos. not that i dont respect atheists, i respect all beliefs. alot of atheists just seem confused to me. everyones the same when they're arguing their viewpoint. atheists, catholics, buddhists.

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

stoneric

Not believing in god doesn't equate to believing in chaos.

Sugar420

well thats just waves' belief

SageTree

Perhaps by chaos he only means not guided or formed with an "intellegent design". Evolution left to itself would still be chaos in my mind, even if it is appears paradoxically orderly and fluid?

How would you finish the sentence "Not believing in god equates to believing (or appropriate word) in .......?

converse explaination with positive language, rather than what you don't believe, what do you, in other words, stand firm in. Even if that firmness is the changing present moment, it still something, no?

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Bodhisattva

you dumb monkeys, arguing about whether the Mystery is a God or a Devil

choke on your dumb discussions, slip away from your distaste thereafter, and fall far off and down from that uncomfortable Fence wedged up your ass that you so need to escape

says the modern man into my ear

the thing is, the more intelligent variety of atheist is not against the Possibility of god being real, they are Against the Possibility of being assured of the existence of god enough to 'believe', they are against not the theory of god, but that people take that theory and make a Faith out of it.

so its ridiculous of people to expect the atheist to pose 'alternate possibilities' instead of just attacking the possibilities that people have Adhered to so far, because Adherence and its fruits and its roots are the only point's of the atheist

dont confound having no-belief with believing in the importance of not believing anything with regard to some things

the difference between the atheist and agnostic is that the agnostic takes up the position 'for themselves', whereas the atheist wants to make that lack of faith = the powers that be, the ruling order, this kind of atheism wouldn't exist anymore if theism and deism died off, its like liberalism in that way.. the reality is almost all atheists even the really dumb ones, would call themselves agnostic if theism and deism weren't present/prevalent

its not a religious position as much as a sociological outcry for a upheaval and or revamping of the moralism of the powers that be; the god-believers

if you want to argue against the atheist then argue For adherence to God-belief, dont tell him his brand new and structurally unfinished ideas are old and tired. thats my opinion atleast

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SageTree

Wouldn't say I was trying to pry beliefs from him ,in a defend yourself, manner of thinking. I mean by asking this.

We all have a philosphy that we use in life no matter how tight, shakey, or founded, I feel there is a way we go about it. We still have a core of where our truest likes and dislikes arise. I simple am asking, if you can identify it, please elaborate. Perhaps 'you' have read something that has really made you ponder to change course of actions.

I feel this is a very secular question and not baited for any response. I can understand why it's hard to develope hard explainations of thoughts and ideas, because I too am always searching for adiquite words to describe my feelings and beliefs. This is understandable. I guess I was just hoping we had some windy wordy atheists in the buildling.

In my most theistic parts of my life, I still think that I would have totally admitted that I was agnostic about alot of core beliefs in Christianity. Early on I remember considering,' If I can't be sure Jesus was killed and rose, then what does his life mean to me and all this ritual I take part in?' Perhaps this is why I went searching years later.

I would say that now while standing firm on certain ideals, that make sense, like meditation. But am still open, that is to say 'agnostic' about the particulars of where when and why along time ago? The where when and whys of now are more my concern and things I feel I know or can atleast admit to what my 'knowing' constitutes.

So this is all I wanted to ask....

What is atheist philosophy? And if you can explain, I welcome it. I don't wish to defend what I believe mostly because I don't feel that telling someone something that I don't feel I have the words for isn't my means for developing understanding. Therefore I figured someone who was speaking out might posibly have the words to suite their opinions.

I'll mention that I feel rooted firmly in the Buddha Dharma, and to me this is a logical path that mostly entails faith in the methods, not in the goal. I know I'll die I only wish to live and help other live in peace, if I am able. I am very thankful for the experiences I have everyday and that I have the will power to stay comitted to mindful thinking. I don't know who I am thankful to outside of the people I can conceive, so it's more a feeling of graditude to All that help me experience my life, here and now.

Today that is the best I can put it without writing paragraphs why, so if anyone is interested I'll be back later. I have to get my work stuff together.

In loving kindness,
Sage

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stoneric

I don't feel the need to find an answer to that.

SageTree

If you don't have the words or the urge to do so, no worries.

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verklingen

i don't think anyone here wants to argue against the atheist. not myself, anyway. my aim would simply be to clarify that his ideas are truly no more or less valid than the ideas of others. what i find troubling though is that so much of his discussion deals not with his own ideas, but with his conceptions on the ideas of others: conceptions which invariably attempt to invalidate such ideas and the beliefs they generate. i consider it rather shallow tbh, to found one's view solely upon the carcass of other views. that stench rises to the top, and while it may be structurally unfinished there's for damn sure nothing new about it.

it's a lot like morons arguing religious priority, except you might call this iteration an argument for logical priority. it's utterly silly, the same backward, divisive, anti-progressive concept dressed in modern clothing.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

JcP

Sorry dude, but I don't buy this as an applicable point in this thread. The OP is clearly not of the variety of "intelligent atheist" you speak of.

while this might be true of some atheists, I think a large proponent of the growing atheist...faith? movement? tea club? is the assertion that there is no God. Period. They do not suggest that God might be real, they just can't be assured of it enough to believe...they suggest God is NOT REAL and, frankly, mock those who believe otherwise as if a belief in something higher requires a mental retardation or something. It is THAT FORM of Atheism that I see expressed over and over and over again. Your "intellectual" Atheism is a new one for me...and I've been talking about faith on this board and others for a long time. So that says something!

If Atheism is simply the argument against deism as a structured religion...fuck, I'm an atheist. I think 90% of all structured faith is bullshit and ironically enough a roadblock in the search for spiritual understanding of one's self. I also don't think there will ever be enough evidence to "prove" God. But that does not remove the questions and my wanting and searching for answers.

But Atheism is used as an identity for a lot of people, this OP included, as a way of defining themselves in reference to God. And by doing so...and by adhering to a group mentality, they create their own religious structure...

So your definition of Atheism might be true for some Atheists, I do not think it's true for all (or most, for that matter).

edit: in fact, if the OP and others like him expressed themselves as you did, I would have agreed with him.

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Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

farmergiles

1- I don`t think atheism implies belief in chaos or at least I think that statement is very misleading.

Patterns arise in nature out of chaos- chaos theory permeates modern science and is observed in nature everywhere. The reality we see around us exhibits pattern and chaos simultaneously. I`m an atheist and this is how I perceive the universe. Other atheists almost certainly perceive things differently.
I don`t see that there has to be an intelligent architect or prime mover for patterns to evolve; I see no necessity at all.
Even if there is some primal design we are so far from comprehending it that the whole concept just plain fails for me.

2- Not believing in god does not equate to believing in anything. Atheists are not united in their beliefs, just in their disbelief* (see below). It`s as if you asked what do people who don`t like brussell sprouts eat? The answer is anything else or possibly nothing.


*Atheism does however encourage faith and belief- in both self and humanity. If no one else is in charge then we need to act somewhat responsibly. Although atheism seems negative because of the a at the front, it could be seen as an acceptance of responsibility. Hardly a negative viewpoint.
I can`t help but feel that a lot of "believers" feel they need a metaphysical parental hand to tuck them into bed at night and theism serves this need.

Just my opinions of course, but I think I`m entitled to them .

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Cultivate a stoic calmness

zerodown

Not believing in god equates to believing in the nonexistence of deities.

Ego Tripping

Pretty funny...now that xxoozero isn't posting anymore, the thread turned into an actual discussion.

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420smokeman

ism this ism that, we are all the same thing no matter what you belive in your mind.

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cause there aint nothing else to do and any where i go i know im you and i keep coming back forward through to myself

Waves

not believing in anything equates to believing in chaos. thats my point. lack of belief is still belief. just like saying "no" to something is still a choice. its the choice not to do or experience.

chaos in itself is a belief, because chaos doesnt exist. every phenomena in nature can be analyzed and brought down to basic laws that can be re-constructed and tested and proven. chaos is a word given to things we dont understand intellectually. just like all other beliefs.

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Waves

its funny how people talk about the prime mover and the primal design, whatever those are, as seperate from nature and ourselves.

why do they have to be? cant our very universe be a manifestation of that primal design? wouldnt our experiences themselves be a part of the primal design?

put very bluntly- heres my question to you giles- how did our universe gain existence? what force caused the big bang? what force caused the force that caused the big bang? what force caused the force that caused the force that caused the big bang?

now you might notice when answering this in your head that you will be going off of believe and speculation just as much as those who you perceive as religious. and that also is my point. no one fuckin knows. securing your belief in atheist to me, is just as limiting as securing your belief in religion. theres no balance. theres no openness. the result of both is a closed, shut mind.

yes and no are both choices. people who dont like brussels are united in their no. and thats still a choice.

by uniting in disbelief, your still united. and thats my point. it doesnt matter if its belief or disbelief, you are still believing and choosing. and like someone else said, theres no evidence to prove or disprove god either way. athiests have nothing to show for their belief, in other words. athiesm exists only to deter other beliefs and oppose other beliefs. its a reaction to other beliefs. it in itself is not a valid belief system, it proves nothing and it explains nothing. it just says "your wrong."

can you tell that i prefer agnostics over atheists yet?

Alot of athiests feel that way and frankly i used to as well. Not anymore. Now that perspective seems elitist and naive to me. You see yourselves as more evolved than the primitive believers. Which couldnt be further from the truth. you are both so caught up in your beliefs you dont realize that youve both closed your minds.

ps- i dont mean "YOU" as in you, farmer. im talking about atheist in general here as i obviously have a limited knowledge of your individual beliefs.

good lil debate we got goin farmer. dont take anything personally of course

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

stoneric

I guess I was going by webster's definition of chaos.

SageTree

These are two nice answers, Zero, short and sweet, ringing true. And Farmgilies, this sentence really caught me, highly rational, right under my nose, realization, thanks. I enjoyed the rest and agree with your first paragraph especially regaurding the phenomena of our Being. That is a scientific word for how Buddhists practice life and meditation, watching the present moment, and what rises and falls into and out of existence.

Thanks fellas.

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Bodhisattva

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