farmergiles

Nope, chaos exhibits predictable characteristics. White noise can be defined and it`s effects predicted. Chaos is part of the structured world that we see around us, chaos and order being part of the same whole both in certain religions and according to modern science. I`ve already mentioned chaos theory which describes how order and pattern arise from chaos.
Also consider quantum mechanics, which postulates models for events which are not random but statistical. There is if you like a pattern (like a woodgrain) of order over the chaos/energy around us.
Einstein said "God doesn`t play dice". If there is a god then Einstein was wrong.


Forgive buthchery of post
1- Obviously if there is a primal design then our universe and experiences are part of it.
But why does there have to be? I think that need is psychological.

2- I have no proof. I have some ideas.

If you went to another time and place when people had no idea about astronomy and asked a random person what the sun was you would get various answers. One would almost certainly be along the lines of "the sun is a god", another "the sun is the source of life". Another might be "I don`t know but it provides light and warmth and fuels nature and the seasons".
Which is the best answer? Would you say a person who gave the third answer and scorned the first answer was wrong?
The first answer is theist, the third atheist.

What force caused the big bang? I think the cyclical nature of all things is the best simple explanation- as the patterns arising from chaos are in evidence everywhere so are wave patterns- which can also express or be expressed in terms of exponentials or logarithms. Maybe there are an infinite number of possibilities and we experience just one. Does this mean that we are in this possibility by design? If you tell me you know we are I find that hard to believe.
In infinity all patterns are present. Is the universe finite or infinite? Again how should I know? I suspect that all is possible and there are multiple realities. Too much can be made of coincidence.

Personally I acknowledge that I do not understand the origins of the universe and have a total disbelief in the ideas presented to explain those origins by religion.

3- You have defined my atheism for me. Please don`t, see above paragraph.
If you perceive atheists as closed minded and elitist how do you think many theists appear to atheists? Most hardline christians and muslims believe that atheists are sinners and go to hell. Fossilization of beliefs.
Also I`ve yet to meet an atheist who would wish to deny anyone else the right to believe or worship as they chose. Such atheists may well exist but most merely wish to be left alone to believe what they want.

Atheists are rather like anarchists in that they are unlikely to ever band together and form cohesive realist power blocks.
Which is a shame as I would like to live in an atheist anarchist state. (NB in my atheist state anyone can worship as they please, only religion has no place in politics or law and is not taught in school outside of the context of sociology).

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farmergiles

I would think of atheism as refusing to found one`s view on the carcass of other views.

I don`t think Buddhism and atheism are incompatible at all, Taoism neither.

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SageTree

That's why I mentioned it . Thought it was totally valid for the sake of our talk to say that the parts of religion that matter to my metaphysical mental states furtherance, are the jews of solid living advice that have physical proofs. Like meditation, yoga, diet and things like that. Once I practice them there is no denying the benefit I get from them. But it's hard for me to get into, for instance, shria law. While I see the social code in the Quran, it seems there is alot more dogma to 'properly' applying these beliefs. Where as Buddhism is laid out as a belief in the methods, more than belief in a goal. As well as the fact that, we are asked to used the methods that we have experienced benefit from and just not blindly or intellectually accept them. It's not secular, persay, but depending on the practicioner you ask, it quite could be.

The only profession of 'faith' is the the Buddha, the teacher, the Dharma, the teachings, and the Sangha, the community which extends to the whole world.

For me its a practical philosphy that helps me calm the mind, open my heart and help as many in need as I encounter each day. I know I'll die, why wait in worry, living each day well? Using relgion as a means for action in life, seems to be alot safer that using it to set yourself up in a safety net.

In kind
SageTree

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verklingen

then why is so much of its rhetoric (read: richard dawkins et al) delivered like a mailbomb to a house of thought?

but i get what you're saying, and technically it's true. it's just that atheism sets out to be this big, new thing and yet falls prey to the same need for validation at the expense of others that's plagued us since our earliest recorded history. it's supposed to be a void of belief, and yet believing in void IS a belief! it's like all the bad of religion with none of the good tbh.

i'm speaking of atheists generally, of course.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Center

So bored of this topic.

Yes, I believe in consciousness.

Ego Tripping

Thanks for contributing.

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xxoozero

Y'all niggaz still postin in my troll thread?

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tits lol

verklingen

good discussion is like a fungus, it can grow pretty much anyplace

even troll shit

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

JcP

edit: Verk wins the thread. Must have posted that before i finished my post. ROFL>


Farmergiles, on this point I agree with you. It is not anyone's business defining your beliefs, nor is it your job to define the beliefs of others.

However, almost 100% of atheists I have ever spoken to (until this thread, in fact) have ALWAYS mocked belief in anything other than 'science' as if it explains everything.

And almost 100% of all atheists I have ever spoken to are also quite interested in , as verk put it, "mailbombing" religious traditions and beliefs. Mocking those who believe, trying to use logic to disprove a post-logical concept like God (which is lol), completely avoiding the lack of a creation-force in the universe yet professing the universe began with the big bang, etc.

In effect, I believe this is the first time I've been in the presence of intelligent AND compassionate atheists.

Who are the biggest Atheist "speakers" presently? Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. Have you ever heard either of these jackasses speak about religion? Dawkins is dumb AND insulting, Hitchens is EXTREMELY smart but also insulting.

So again, as I said to Boddhisatva, if atheism is now being defined as simply not believing in a deist that's great. If atheism is being defined as knowing there is no God, that's fundamentalism.

sorry if this rambled, I just woke up.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

Center

oh god, ego, how many times have we discussed this top over the years. it's redundant on forum. however, certain people have expressed their desire for me to post more regularly in this forum so im obliging.

god is consciousness. Nuff said.

farmergiles

TBH there`s not that much to say, apart from non-belief in god.

Most atheists probably wouldn`t identify themselves primarily as atheists. When`s the last time you heard of an atheist suicide bomber or an atheist crusade?

If there is a core belief that atheists hold it is that religion and politics should be separate.

But I can give you a quote from a famous person, even though he wasn`t an atheist as far as I`m aware.

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farmergiles

I`d say Dawkins was reacting against creationism.

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verklingen

^ agreed, with all the hostile gusto of dark age christians reacting against paganism and such. all that's missing are the tortured and burnt bodies.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Bodhisattva

"Not their love of men but the impotence of their love of men keeps the Christians of today from -- burning us." -Nietzsche

shakeNbake06

Not really.. But I choose to accept that I do not know, nor does any other human being on this planet.. But I'm not going to live my whole life according to how some ancient book/s tell me or choose a certain religion that somehow makes it better than others. I mean organized religion imo has no place in modern days. It's like if you choose one religion, or were born into it, you put this so called "faith" in it and accept it as the absolute truth.. If you were born in America you'd most likely be raised a Christian whereas if you were born in Iraq you'd be likely to be raised Muslim. It better be the "right" religion or according to the books you could find yourself suffering for eternity..ridiculous . But to completely dismiss the possibility that there might be something "beyond" this life and that this physical life is all there is, is also kinda ignorant imo. Just because there is no "proof" doesn't really mean much. I mean there might be WAY more to "reality" than what we know of. All we can do is wait to die and than we'll find out.. hopefully

JcP

see what you're doing? This is what makes me want to pull my hair out when debating with atheists. you're making the argument that religion leads to atrocity. Which is silly, as billions upon billions of religious people have come and gone without blowing up a temple or a bus. And using the CRUSADES as a parallel to religious traditions today is like suggesting because cavemen used to beat on their women that it's an inherant aspect of manhood to be violent to women.

Religion is used as an EXCUSE for action(s) of humans on occasion, but that is not a problem with belief(s), it is a problem with the humans who choose to do the acts.

so I reject this. I'm sure there are PLENTY of atheist criminals out there...is there an al-qaida equivalent in the atheist community? Dunno. Maybe when atheism becomes more mainstream there will be.

This is your first argument that smells bad to me...
Great. As an agnostic, I agree with this platform. And if I, someone who believes in a higher power, can agree with atheists, then the common definition of atheism (there is no God, this is it), is somehow irrelevant?
I love John Lennon! Beautiful Quote!

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

JcP

which is his mistake, as he tries to lump intelligent design (which I believe, although should obviously not be taught in school as it's a belief and not science) and creationism into the same thing.

Richard Dawkins on militant atheism | Video on TED.com


he's enfuriating to watch. So if you believe what you've been saying, you should take to the streets and fight the fundamentalist atheism being proposed by people like this guy.

edit: check out 22:00ish...his references of tooth fairy and teapots are erroneous, as tooth fairies and teapots around saturn are irrelevant to the actual mystery of existence, and therefore apples and oranges. Shrug. I do like his "non-theist" definition however.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

Kompressor

Jcp, can you please elaborate on the difference between Intelligent Design and Creationism? Because most ID institutes are funded by Christian fundie groups. I'd also like to mention that I'm not a big fan of Dawkins either.

That being said I should also mention that i consider myself well-versed in evolution theory, from general Darwin to specifics like Hardy-Weinberg theorems, and have actively engaged in public debates with ID reps and other religious representatives. ID not the same on the surface but when you dive into it they will steer you towards the christian view to the origins of life.

What i think giles is trying to demonstrate as patterns and natural mathematical formulas are known as Emergence, from from the wavelength dunes of the Sahara to the fibonacci sequence of leaf distribution. If you want to really immerse yourself in the 'alternative atheist' writings, there is infinite data and numerous machinery that have been produced through scientific research over belief, from every ancient and modern convenience to the Large Hadron Collider and the elusive search for the Higgs-Boson ["God"] particle.

The one aspect I revere with science and reason compared to scriptures, is that science will wholeheartedly agree that it does not have all the answers, but it's looking for them and displays the current theories from previous exhaustive research that can be corrected based on new evidence from new minds tackling and working with these concepts. In that search, considering it's vast depth, we pick up other knowledge of our environments and how it relates to us as well as how we might manipulate deistic forces, such as human flight.

As for the 'bigger' questions, science to me is the great equalizer. Whereas however you believe the earth was formed, ultimately religious texts are confined to the limited range that each relgion inhabits on planet earth, where as science literally expands from deep into the farthest reaches of space to the electrons flying instantaneously at the speed of light in the immense yet miniscule empty space that is the atom. Asking questions like 'why are we here' and 'where are we headed' implies that we are inherently more deserving to be here than the humble protozoa instead of looking into the process of how all life came to be, terrestrial and possibly otherwise, and also estimates that there is a predetermined path to where life, or more specifically humans, are going. Science itself is a collaborative effort from across the globe to ever understand true nature of the universe around us, which admittedly may be too much for humans to understand instead of reverting to a vague force known as God.

Science doesn't dispute the existence/belief of God, it just places God in a smaller role as Laws and Axioms and labels the forces that 'God' exerts instead of a conscious state with predetermined futures.

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JcP

Intelligent Design: A creative force (God, higher consciousness, something beyond our comprehension) created life from no life...evolution is how life has changed over time.

Creationism: God created humans out of nothing (Adam and Eve).

the difference is that Intelligent Design does not conflict with evolution. it merely puts evolution into its (in my opinion) proper place as the HOW, not the WHY in terms of how humanity has gotten here.

I'd also like to reiterate that Intelligent Design has no place in the classroom (especially science classroom) as I fully admit it is a belief based on nothing but my own observation of reality and what my heart tells me to be true.

Evolution does not explain how life began. It explains how life has evolved. And therein lies the inherent flaw in the God vs. Evolution debate. They are only contradictory if you believe in CREATIONISM, which is the 6,000 year old Earth and Noah and the Ark and all that.

And yes, it is unfortunate that Fundies have gotten behind intelligent design. Their goal is to teach it as if it's a scientific theory...using the patterns and "immeasurably small odds life could evolve in such a perfect way" to try and "prove" God. It's how they are hoping to get God into the classroom.

And while I certainly think the question of "how did life begin?" should be posed to every student, it should be posed as a question...not for the children to find answers, but to begin the questioning of themselves.

and I agree Science admits it does not have all the answers. It's why I dig science. It's also why I do NOT dig dogmatic religious institutions. However, assuming we live in an infinite universe, science will NEVER have all the answers. And "God" in whatever form you may think, is what lies beyond.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

Kompressor

Creationism isnt just humans, it's also the 5 days or so before adam and eve arrived as well, which is what ID is all about. Evolution does go into origins if you expand beyond the works of Darwin and go into other visionaries like Gregor Mendel, Watson & Crick, Hardy & Weinberg, Linnaeus, etc... I personally cant see how one can deny evolution and enjoy modern medicine and biology as a means of deducing the origins of life. Not to mention that biologists are on the cusp of creating man made life, if some mod wants to dig up that article i've posted on here from the lost thread vault it would be greatly appreciated.

Science may never have all the answers, and neither will any religion or even intelligent design that doesn't have "God" on direct speed dial. Basically I feel it as a copout to digging any further into what is out there. Also you are assuming that there is a 'WHY' to our place in the universe.

My belief, to cleverly play on words as well as referencing a previous heated debate thread, if you believe that you can understand the secrets of the universe in its entirety, you are ego tripping.

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Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson