farmergiles

Hmmm I`m not going to provide examples of where religion has been used as an excuse for hatred,war, discrimenation etc this week- just go and buy a newspaper. Religeous bigotry thrives!
Atheism is not and has never been used as an excuse for war, violence, or discrimination- it is non sectarian. That is why there is not and is very unlikely to be an atheist al quaeda. Where did you get that idea from JcP? Dawkins going on about fairy rings or whatever is a far cry from jihad.

Dawkins- yeah he`s a dogmatic reactionary. There are thousands of dogmatic reactionaries in the media. Why does he annoy you particularly? I do actually rate some of his writing about evolution and Darwinism though.

The reason I said that if atheists have a core belief it is separation of state and church is because they don`t necessarily have any other shared beliefs. Unless disbelief is belief.

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Cultivate a stoic calmness

JcP

yes it does, but you missed my point. BIGOTRY thrives...religion is merely an excuse for bigotry. As I said, billions of religious people have lived without hatred, war, discrimination, and blowing up children. Me being one of them!
So using religious bigotry as a condemnation of the concept of religion is backwards logic. That's like saying adolescence leads to murder, since some adolescents shoot up their schools.

edit: HA! this made me just think about "guns don't kill people, people kill people!" Perhaps spiritual/religious thoughts in the hands of stupid people leads to an increase in "mishaps", just as guns do.
With guns, I agree that it's the PERSON who kills people, but also that the gun culture in our country increases the odds of gun death...
So I still disagree with your basic argument, but perhaps we can agree that religion, in the hands of idiots, does cause damage.
So we're talking about excuses? We're missing each other on the debate highway atm. I know Atheism has never been used as an excuse for war (yet, as South Park so brilliantly parodied a couple seasons ago), violence, or what have you...but that's not fair.
Atheists HAVE been violent, been in wars, been discriminatory, etc. So my point is that your proposed suggestion that religion leads to war, violence, etc. isn't kosher, as those acts are PERSONAL CHOICE, not a product of a given faith. For instance, a muslim man is approached by Osama Bin Laden. He can choose to blow up a building in the name of Allah or not. It is that man that should be judged, not the excuses or "reasons" he gives.

And it only takes one atheist terrorist for this to be completely moot. And I hate to say it, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
Two reasons: 1) because he claims science as his own...and proposes that if you disagree with him you are not intelligent...fuckin g enfuriating... and 2) Because his argument(s) are the argument(s) countless young atheists use in repetition without thought or investigation. And his arguments always fall short for me in blatant ways, especially his most famous quote about going one God further. It's a completely assinine comment as the leap from multiple Gods to One God is a completely different type of change than some sort of God to NO God.

Disbelief is a belief, as you are basing your disbelief on belief(s). Double negatives like that in debates get twisty sometimes, but I hope that makes sense.

but i'm with you on church and state, even as a "believer." I know I don't know for sure the truth about things, and it's not my place to dictate to others who are just as clueless as I am (including atheists).

So just so I'm clear...you're proposing atheism is not believing in a God, but recognizing that there could be one (even if you find it improbable like the teapot around Saturn).

As long as the uncertainty is present in your belief system, more power to you. It's when people like Dawkins, and other types of fundamentalists in classic religious traditions, profess they hold the only truth that my bullshit radar goes off.

so perhaps that's the happy compromise between atheism and deism/agnostic/buddhism/whatever else: the admittance of uncertainty.

I am always willing to admit "I don't know." I BELIEVE in something...would you agree that you don't know, but you DON'T BELIEVE in something?

As (I think it was...) Plato said: "I don't know. But I know I don't know."

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

JcP

I think this might be a case of misrepresentation and semantics...just as people lump all christians together into one group sometimes, perhaps ID has been unfairly overtaken in the public discourse by the fundamentalist looney tunes.

As far as I'm concerned, ID is simply the belief that the existence of consciousness and self-awareness is divine in some way. That is transcends mere chance and physics...that there is a transcendental force as well.
Man made life = life creating life. And while this is still hypothetical, it's not a parallel to no life creating life.

I am not familiar enough with the other evolutionists you mentioned, so I can't really engage you on that. sorry

I didn't follow your "deny evolution" sentence...
Yes I am assuming there is a why because that's what my brain and heart tells me to be true. We'll never know if there is a why or not, so actually that's just another example of your original point of:

science and religion will never have all the answers. I agree! I disagree, however, that ID leads to a copout. Why would we stop digging? Dig! Exploration and discovery is awesome! ID is an explaination of our source. And unless we achieve complete understanding of our universe, our source is probably going to remain a mystery. Ergo: belief or disbelief in things like God, higher consciousness, "collective God", etc etc.
At the end of the day, my only claim in life is a quote that changed my life a few years ago (and one I just posted to giles) "I don't know. But I know I don't know." In essence, all I know is that I don't know.

I would like to say this is the most pleasant and adult conversation about religion and atheism I have ever had. You and Farmergiles are both very compelling, even if I do disagree with you.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

farmergiles

OK- if you like; acts of zealotry are unlikely to be done under the banner of atheism. Did I say atheists were saints ?
When I read in the news that an atheist terror group have committed suicide bombings I`ll eat my hat. I think that was the irony the OP intended.


Just so I`m clear about what I`m saying- atheism is not believing in a god.
Personally I don`t reject the possibility of god entirely insomuch as I find the idea ludicrously unlikely and see no evidence whatsoever. That`s just my idea. Other atheists have different ideas. I can elaborate on this for pages if you want.

I`m an atheist because I don`t believe in god.
I don`t think the nature of the universe is inconsistent with the notion of god except that that notion does not seem to me to be empirically supported in any way at all.
I don`t believe in fairies. I can`t prove that they don`t exist. I`ve yet to meet an argument that might remotely induce me to believe they exist and it`s hard for me to even imagine such an argument. Does that mean I lack imagination?

I`m sure you`ve heard these arguments before.


I think Kant wrote a great deal about the nature of what we can and can`t know and rather confused western philosophy ever since.

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Cultivate a stoic calmness

JcP

cool. And that's the simple disagreement...I see the need for some form of higher consciousness for the universe to "be," because if something was created out of nothing I see that as a divine act or if the universe has always been, and I am part of that universe, then I am quite literally PART of an infinite source of creation (which I call God). On the other hand, you don't see enough empirical evidence, which your consciousness needs in order to believe in something like this.
and both beliefs are just as valid as the other.

And we both are capable of admitting that we could definately be wrong, although we both doubt it

As for the fairies, I don't see a "need" for fairies in order for my consciousness to make sense of itself, so I am more inclined to not believe them to be real (although in an infinite omniverse possibly including infinite parallel universes, I also have the notion that everything must exist, so fairies very well might ) but that's another topic haha.

Repeating ourselves a bit now...which is actually kind of nice as I think we've come to an impasse without needing to yell at each other....we believe different things and are both capable of acknowledging that in reality we are completely shooting in the dark!

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

farmergiles

I`m not sure where you`re coming from. Is it the fact that atheism refutes religion but postulates no alternatives?

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Cultivate a stoic calmness

SageTree

150 yrs of Darwin

Which I also found and your request....

Man made life

I'm going to get to work here and will be thinking about what has been said here, see if I have anything to add or comment on.

Love
Sage

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Bodhisattva

i like the atheists cus sociology is my fav

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verklingen

not exactly. it's more that atheism refutes beliefs at all. i don't care about alternatives, i'm just really turned off by the needless slander that seems intrinsic to all atheistic discussion.

i've never heard an atheist expound on his belief without using other "inferior" beliefs as footing. if they're so unimportant, why do they play such an active role in the generation of atheistic thought? like waves said before, this only makes the atheist appear confused. . . like a teenager who rebels for the sake of rebellion, almost.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

farmergiles

I can`t defend the viewpoints of other atheists beyond the obvious, but I can say a few things about my own.

I don`t think atheism refutes belief at all, I think it refutes belief in god, that is my understanding anyway. A specific reduction in credulity does not equate general disbelief.

I have plenty of beliefs, just I don`t believe in god.

Religion serves mankind in many ways, obviously we will miss out on many things if religion was just totally vanished from existence overnight.

To draw an imperfect parallel the hippie movement of the sixties and the punk movement of the seventies effectively annihilated much of the outdated cultural mores that preceded them without really offering a valid alternative, leaving us to fall into the cultural abyss that was the eighties. Yet this is necessary for change, I think I`d rather be living now than in the fifties.

Religion offers a spiritual (whatever that means, I can`t define it- yet I acknowledge its` existence) outlet, as well as (in more constructive instances) strengthening family and community ties.

Atheism fails completely to offer any replacement for the benefits of church/temple/mosque or whatever.

That`s not to say there are no alternatives, for example acid house provided many of the benefits of religion in the late eighties without the bullshit.
OK so that scene kind of fizzled but I can imagine a society that shares rituals and spiritual experiences together without the need for god figure. A rave in the woods could be an atheist spiritual ritual. And it wouldn`t make any difference if the participants believed in god or not.

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Kompressor

First and foremost I'd like to clarify that i do not consider myself an atheist, but more of an agnostic with strong inclinations towards logic and reason. Spock-ish, to simplify.

I too feel like their may be a divine power, but given the grand scope of this debate outside my own emotional responses and even outside the scope of humanity i also feel like having a preconceived notion ultimately leads to a biased and possibly untruthful conclusion. I'm not saying their cannot be divination, but when one rules out the possibility of there not being one based on a gut feeling then i feel the issue has been compromised. Even if you 'keep digging,' one is more inclined to find evidence for their bias than against.

Thanks for bringing up the article Sage, as it is an example of humans successfully creating life from mere chemicals. I see jcp's point about conscious life creating life, but some might begin escalating humanity to divination with that interpretation.

Also perhaps denying evolution was too strong a word choice, more of a dismissal i guess. To me, evolution is the most logical answer, and as giles stated along with my own details, the one with the most compelling evidence.

Even though we may have developed an impasse, i too have enjoyed the cordial comments in this thread and agree we're ultimately made of stardust.

__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson

Psilocychosis

Precisely.

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Life gave me lemons, I didn't make no lemonade, threw the fuckin' lemons back and busted out the Cabernet

farmergiles

I can totally get on with that concept apart from a minor semantic difference .

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JcP

I was thinking about you today when I was on the bus and began to think about this suggestion in particular, and I realized why it didn't jive with me...

500 years ago, people believed in fairies to explain things they could not understand, often things with regards to nature. For the sake of debate, lets focus on a single thing: the changing of the seasons. Back in the day, someone might attribute the changing of the seasons to the power of fairies...

Over time, science explained why the seasons change...rotation of the earth, wobbly axis, etc.

so while FAIRIES were "disproved", the purpose for the belief in fairies was simply replaced by a new explaination. The seasons still change...how we understand those changing seasons, however, has morphed.

I got kind of excited when I thought of this, if only because my concept of what could be increased even more...

I would grant you that God might indeed be comparable to fairies. But the PURPOSE of the placeholder concept of God is still a vital question that science has yet to explain.

In other words, my belief(s) about why/how I exist are a complete guess in terms of FORM, the question itself still requires an answer. "God" and the ethereal powers associated with that concept, whether it be an old dude in the sky or a more amorphic "creative force", are required...but what the actual explaination is could be many many things.

So perhaps atheism and deism are not as far apart as I thought...perhaps atheism is simply a rejection of the as-of-now proposed FORMS of this "God concept", but not a rejection of the inherent question(s) of how life began and why we are self-conscious. Perhaps the visual, tangible world is the "religion" of atheism...that you believe what you can experience through your body-senses are more true than what your mind imagines.

does this make sense? It's a new idea for me so I'm still sort of forming it in my head.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

Sugar420

^yes that makes total sense. good realization

but dont forget that religious doctrine is not so much about explaining the natural world as it is a way of thinking about the relationship between ppl and the natural world, including other planets and stars, and other ppl too

SpankyMcLankey

I believe in a higher power, and I'm leaving it at that.

Roach

The Associated Press: Georgia lawmaker: 2010 should be year of the Bible

I find this ^ very concept ^ disgusting and insulting.

It's why I joined and support...

American Atheists | Welcome

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לזיין את הקופים

stoneric

Yeah. The year of the bill of rights is more appropriate.

kitch

God believes in me.

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Kompressor

Zomg kitchencabinet sighting!

Clever as ever.

__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson