Buddhism and Psychology: 'Modern' medicine from 2500 yrs ago.

**SageTree** · 06-02-2009, 10:19 PM

"Buddhism will come to the West as a psychology." - Chogyam Trungpa, 1974

Wikipedia Link

Well I'm always amazed at the relevant manner in which Buddhism effects modern thinking in science.

As some of you know my wife is a psychologist. As she was learning we started noticing alot of trending towards seeing the Buddha Dharma in alot of her western school books. In other words, there were alot of European/North American 'inventions' in methods and these people were 'great thinkers' in their field or 'innovators'. But nothing is often mentioned that 2500 years ago Buddhists had texts with very good advice on over coming difficulties.

Now I am aware that one place can't own an idea, but it's some what curious that there isn't ALOT more talk about this overlap. Buddhism simply put is Phenomenology , speaking in western terms. Mindfullness is at the core of Buddhist means to witnessing this phenomenology. There is also a way or ways in which we are offered to practice in our overcoming of suffering/unsatisfactoriness which is inherent in all attachment to mental formations. This is where belief in methods, specifically Buddhist ones come into play, however this is alot like saying trust in your counselers methods or a guru have you. Someone who is able to instruct you in methods of attaining well being.

As a person who is in the path of spiritual counseling I find casting my roots into the Dharma has been a base that has extended into many others understanding of their own faith, beliefs, concerns. Buddhism walks the line. It's applied methods for relief are certainly privy to the reason is extends into the secular world and into science. Which I won't commentate much past how I think that is faith in consciousness itself a bit.

This is just something that I found to lay out a good explaination with a few nice charts. I am very happy and I would just like to share this.

In loving kindness,
SageTree

Psilocychosis · 06-02-2009, 10:29 PM

This is all very interesting...Do you think you could elaborate on "non-duality" for me please? This intrigues me.. Distinct..but together? Thanks

**SageTree** · 06-02-2009, 10:34 PM

My wife just got home from a long day. I'll hit you up in the morning.

Metta
Sage

Psilocychosis · 06-02-2009, 10:35 PM

Alright. Much thanks Sage

**SageTree** · 06-03-2009, 07:17 AM

....when I find a good read, I like to post it. I don't want my bias hanging out, and don't mind looking something up to prompt questions. So please read on and let me know if that helped, or weather you knew alot of that and didn't get much from it.

Buddhism is a path riddled with accepted paradox, which make beautiful sense when you can really wrap your head around it. I think it to remind us there isn't A knowledge of language that will ever hand us the answers. The Buddah said that using words is a way to talk of and to walk towards enlightenment, but not how to know it, because that is highly personal.

So...

Buddhism

All schools of Buddhism teach No-Self (Pali anatta, Sanskrit anatman). Non-Self in Buddhism is the Non-Duality of Subject and Object, which is very explicitly stated by the Buddha in verses such as “In seeing, there is just seeing. No seer and nothing seen. In hearing, there is just hearing. No hearer and nothing heard.” (Bahiya Sutta, Udana 1.10). Non-Duality in Buddhism does not constitute merging with a supreme Brahman, but realising that the duality of a self/subject/agent/watcher/doer in relation to the object/world is an illusion.

In the Mahayana Buddhist canon, the Diamond Sutra presents an accessible nondual view of "self" and "beings", while the Heart Sutra asserts shunyata — the "emptiness" of all "form" and simultaneously the "form" of all "emptiness". The Lotus Sutra's parable of the Burning House implies that all talk of Duality or Non-Duality by Buddhas and Bodhisattvas is merely Skillful Means (Sanskrit upaya kausala) meant to lead the deluded to a much higher truth. The fullest philosophical exposition is the Madhyamaka; by contrast many laconic pronouncements are delivered as koans. Advanced views and practices are found in the Mahamudra and Maha Ati, which emphasize the vividness and spaciousness of nondual awareness.

Mahayana Buddhism, in particular, tempers the view of nonduality (wisdom) with respect for the experience of duality (compassion) — ordinary dualistic experience, populated with selves and others (sentient beings), is tended with care, always "now". This approach is itself regarded as a means to disperse the confusions of duality (i.e. as a path). In Theravada, that respect is expressed cautiously as non-harming, while in the Vajrayana, it is expressed boldly as enjoyment (especially in tantra).

Dzogchen is a relatively esoteric (to date) tradition concerned with the "natural state", and emphasizing direct experience. This tradition is found in the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, where it is classified as the highest of this lineage's nine yanas, or vehicles of practice. Similar teachings are also found in the non-Buddhist Bön tradition. In Dzogchen, the primordial state, the state of nondual awareness, is called rigpa.

The Dzogchen practitioner realizes that appearance and emptiness are inseparable. One must transcend dualistic thoughts to perceive the true nature of one's pure mind. This primordial nature is clear light, unproduced and unchanging, free from all defilements. One's ordinary mind is caught up in dualistic conceptions, but the pure mind is unafflicted by delusions. Through meditation, the Dzogchen practitioner experiences that thoughts have no substance. Mental phenomena arise and fall in the mind, but fundamentally they are empty. The practitioner then considers where the mind itself resides. The mind can not exist in the ever-changing external phenomena and through careful examination one realizes that the mind is emptiness. All dualistic conceptions disappear with this understanding.[8]

Zen is a non-dual tradition. It can be considered a religion, a philosophy, or simply a practice depending on one's perspective. It has also been described as a way of life, work, and an art form. Zen practitioners deny the usefulness of such labels, calling them, "The finger pointing at the moon." Tozan, one of the founders of Soto Zen in China, had a teaching known as the Five Ranks of the Real and the Ideal, which points out the necessity of not getting caught in the duality between Absolute and Relative/Samsara and Nirvana, and describes the stages of further transcendence into fully realising the Absolute in all activities.

Link to expanded topic

I'll see what else I can find for you or think of a language to put the words/concepts into.

Edit: Dependent origination is a good topic to read on. I feel this is key to understanding the interconnected web, which I believe lies closely with Non Dual understanding As well as Shunyata , or emptiness is very key to non-dualism. Just read these a bit, hope you like to read. It's alitlte head and dry, but you'll see the answers you seek, but I'm more than happy to talk about it.

Just thought I'd point to a direction and see if you found your own understanding first.

Asking is a good prompt

In loving kindness,
SageTree

Psilocychosis · 06-03-2009, 03:20 PM

Thank you extensively

. That was very enlightening and helpful, thank you.

The Rev · 06-03-2009, 04:40 PM

There's a great book on this subject by Mark Epstein called "Thoughts Without A Thinker". In fact, it was the book that got me interested in Buddhism in the first place. A very cool read by a Psychologist / Buddhist.

The Rev

**SageTree** · 06-04-2009, 07:56 AM

Thanks Rev I WILL look at that. My wife might already know who he is....I'm sure she does. The Dharma is her footing for the rest of her psychology practice.

And xMSx, I'm glad that helped you, did it all make sense?

Much Love
SageTree

**SageTree** · 12-07-2010, 11:55 AM

head bump

06-02-2009, 10:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 22,453 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 11,370 Thanked 5,640 Times in 3,981 Posts	Buddhism and Psychology: 'Modern' medicine from 2500 yrs ago. "Buddhism will come to the West as a psychology." - Chogyam Trungpa, 1974 Wikipedia Link Well I'm always amazed at the relevant manner in which Buddhism effects modern thinking in science. As some of you know my wife is a psychologist. As she was learning we started noticing alot of trending towards seeing the Buddha Dharma in alot of her western school books. In other words, there were alot of European/North American 'inventions' in methods and these people were 'great thinkers' in their field or 'innovators'. But nothing is often mentioned that 2500 years ago Buddhists had texts with very good advice on over coming difficulties. Now I am aware that one place can't own an idea, but it's some what curious that there isn't ALOT more talk about this overlap. Buddhism simply put is Phenomenology , speaking in western terms. Mindfullness is at the core of Buddhist means to witnessing this phenomenology. There is also a way or ways in which we are offered to practice in our overcoming of suffering/unsatisfactoriness which is inherent in all attachment to mental formations. This is where belief in methods, specifically Buddhist ones come into play, however this is alot like saying trust in your counselers methods or a guru have you. Someone who is able to instruct you in methods of attaining well being. As a person who is in the path of spiritual counseling I find casting my roots into the Dharma has been a base that has extended into many others understanding of their own faith, beliefs, concerns. Buddhism walks the line. It's applied methods for relief are certainly privy to the reason is extends into the secular world and into science. Which I won't commentate much past how I think that is faith in consciousness itself a bit. This is just something that I found to lay out a good explaination with a few nice charts. I am very happy and I would just like to share this. In loving kindness, SageTree __________________ YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance. "We're not here to judge what's good from bad, But to do the things that are right."

06-02-2009, 10:29 PM	#2 (permalink)
Psilocychosis Reelin' in the Years Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Long and Winding Road Posts: 479 Thanks: 22 Thanked 58 Times in 49 Posts	This is all very interesting...Do you think you could elaborate on "non-duality" for me please? This intrigues me.. Distinct..but together? Thanks __________________ Life gave me lemons, I didn't make no lemonade, threw the fuckin' lemons back and busted out the Cabernet

06-02-2009, 10:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 22,453 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 11,370 Thanked 5,640 Times in 3,981 Posts	My wife just got home from a long day. I'll hit you up in the morning. Metta Sage __________________ YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance. "We're not here to judge what's good from bad, But to do the things that are right."

06-02-2009, 10:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
Psilocychosis Reelin' in the Years Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Long and Winding Road Posts: 479 Thanks: 22 Thanked 58 Times in 49 Posts	Alright. Much thanks Sage __________________ Life gave me lemons, I didn't make no lemonade, threw the fuckin' lemons back and busted out the Cabernet

06-03-2009, 07:17 AM	#5 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 22,453 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 11,370 Thanked 5,640 Times in 3,981 Posts	I don't mean to cut and paste, but..... ....when I find a good read, I like to post it. I don't want my bias hanging out, and don't mind looking something up to prompt questions. So please read on and let me know if that helped, or weather you knew alot of that and didn't get much from it. Buddhism is a path riddled with accepted paradox, which make beautiful sense when you can really wrap your head around it. I think it to remind us there isn't A knowledge of language that will ever hand us the answers. The Buddah said that using words is a way to talk of and to walk towards enlightenment, but not how to know it, because that is highly personal. So... Buddhism All schools of Buddhism teach No-Self (Pali anatta, Sanskrit anatman). Non-Self in Buddhism is the Non-Duality of Subject and Object, which is very explicitly stated by the Buddha in verses such as “In seeing, there is just seeing. No seer and nothing seen. In hearing, there is just hearing. No hearer and nothing heard.” (Bahiya Sutta, Udana 1.10). Non-Duality in Buddhism does not constitute merging with a supreme Brahman, but realising that the duality of a self/subject/agent/watcher/doer in relation to the object/world is an illusion. In the Mahayana Buddhist canon, the Diamond Sutra presents an accessible nondual view of "self" and "beings", while the Heart Sutra asserts shunyata — the "emptiness" of all "form" and simultaneously the "form" of all "emptiness". The Lotus Sutra's parable of the Burning House implies that all talk of Duality or Non-Duality by Buddhas and Bodhisattvas is merely Skillful Means (Sanskrit upaya kausala) meant to lead the deluded to a much higher truth. The fullest philosophical exposition is the Madhyamaka; by contrast many laconic pronouncements are delivered as koans. Advanced views and practices are found in the Mahamudra and Maha Ati, which emphasize the vividness and spaciousness of nondual awareness. Mahayana Buddhism, in particular, tempers the view of nonduality (wisdom) with respect for the experience of duality (compassion) — ordinary dualistic experience, populated with selves and others (sentient beings), is tended with care, always "now". This approach is itself regarded as a means to disperse the confusions of duality (i.e. as a path). In Theravada, that respect is expressed cautiously as non-harming, while in the Vajrayana, it is expressed boldly as enjoyment (especially in tantra). Dzogchen is a relatively esoteric (to date) tradition concerned with the "natural state", and emphasizing direct experience. This tradition is found in the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, where it is classified as the highest of this lineage's nine yanas, or vehicles of practice. Similar teachings are also found in the non-Buddhist Bön tradition. In Dzogchen, the primordial state, the state of nondual awareness, is called rigpa. The Dzogchen practitioner realizes that appearance and emptiness are inseparable. One must transcend dualistic thoughts to perceive the true nature of one's pure mind. This primordial nature is clear light, unproduced and unchanging, free from all defilements. One's ordinary mind is caught up in dualistic conceptions, but the pure mind is unafflicted by delusions. Through meditation, the Dzogchen practitioner experiences that thoughts have no substance. Mental phenomena arise and fall in the mind, but fundamentally they are empty. The practitioner then considers where the mind itself resides. The mind can not exist in the ever-changing external phenomena and through careful examination one realizes that the mind is emptiness. All dualistic conceptions disappear with this understanding.[8] Zen is a non-dual tradition. It can be considered a religion, a philosophy, or simply a practice depending on one's perspective. It has also been described as a way of life, work, and an art form. Zen practitioners deny the usefulness of such labels, calling them, "The finger pointing at the moon." Tozan, one of the founders of Soto Zen in China, had a teaching known as the Five Ranks of the Real and the Ideal, which points out the necessity of not getting caught in the duality between Absolute and Relative/Samsara and Nirvana, and describes the stages of further transcendence into fully realising the Absolute in all activities. Link to expanded topic I'll see what else I can find for you or think of a language to put the words/concepts into. Edit: Dependent origination is a good topic to read on. I feel this is key to understanding the interconnected web, which I believe lies closely with Non Dual understanding As well as Shunyata , or emptiness is very key to non-dualism. Just read these a bit, hope you like to read. It's alitlte head and dry, but you'll see the answers you seek, but I'm more than happy to talk about it. Just thought I'd point to a direction and see if you found your own understanding first. Asking is a good prompt In loving kindness, SageTree __________________ YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance. "We're not here to judge what's good from bad, But to do the things that are right." Last edited by SageTree; 06-03-2009 at 07:37 AM.

06-03-2009, 03:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
Psilocychosis Reelin' in the Years Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Long and Winding Road Posts: 479 Thanks: 22 Thanked 58 Times in 49 Posts	Thank you extensively . That was very enlightening and helpful, thank you. __________________ Life gave me lemons, I didn't make no lemonade, threw the fuckin' lemons back and busted out the Cabernet

06-03-2009, 04:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
The Rev ~ Herban Legend ~ Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,621 Thanks: 4,646 Thanked 4,986 Times in 2,678 Posts	There's a great book on this subject by Mark Epstein called "Thoughts Without A Thinker". In fact, it was the book that got me interested in Buddhism in the first place. A very cool read by a Psychologist / Buddhist. The Rev __________________ "We need a new 'show us your tits' thread." -~1~

06-04-2009, 07:56 AM	#8 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 22,453 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 11,370 Thanked 5,640 Times in 3,981 Posts	Thanks Rev I WILL look at that. My wife might already know who he is....I'm sure she does. The Dharma is her footing for the rest of her psychology practice. And xMSx, I'm glad that helped you, did it all make sense? Much Love SageTree __________________ YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance. "We're not here to judge what's good from bad, But to do the things that are right."

12-07-2010, 11:55 AM	#9 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 22,453 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 11,370 Thanked 5,640 Times in 3,981 Posts	head bump __________________ YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance. "We're not here to judge what's good from bad, But to do the things that are right."

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