BibleGuy

Hi Manny,

We are in agreement on the "all green things are not cannabis" thing. But that isn't really the answer to my question. When bible speaks of Jesus, for example, it is speaking specifically of Jesus, not some guy. When it speaks of wheat it is speaking specifically of wheat, not some plant. What I want to know is what are the two verses mentioned above speaking of. If you know what it is not, is that because you know what it is? That's what I'm looking for.

What, specifically, does it mean to "consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs" ?

What exactly is Ezekiel34:29 talking about?

BibleGuy

Sage,

That is the most insightful and brilliant thing I have heard anyone say about herb on Yahooka, and goes right along with your statement Manny "Does the herb help? Or is it for some of us (me too) something external I have to do to stop the forever spinning mind?"

If you don't mind, will the two of you please take a quick look (in KJV) at Malachi 1? It's only 14 verses long and the whole thing is illuminating, but pay special attention to verse 10 and take "doors" as singular. And then look at what is prophesied in v11.

What does it appear to mean to each of you?

Thank you, my friends.

SageTree

Get back to you in the morning BG.

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SageTree

Let me guess Doors and Incense are the two words I'm to see?

ie. Who wouldn't shut to door to bad offerings so that we can open to doors again for good offerings of Cannabis which will be smoked far and wide?

To me this whole chapter basically says priest and people shouldn't off God tainted offerings or they should expect the same level of shit they give to Him. In plain terms. If you want God to shine like He plans in verse 11, then offerings have to made with the idea that paradise IS already happening, using the best offerings to the Lord on High.

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BibleGuy

Yes, right on, but there is more being said here as well. I'll save further comments until after MannyBoy responds.

I hope you're having a great day!
BG

SageTree

You can always PM me Captain. And repost anything you say to me on here once Manny speaks his piece, like straight copy paste. I don't mind reading it twice because I'd like to hear what you have to say.

I just glanced last night and re-read it today. This was my quick look without peering at when it was written, what was happening in the kingdom and so forth to bookend what I was reading, as well as not being left with an overwhelming answer, that is what I came up with.

Metta
Sage

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Lurker(W.Can)(M

The use of peyote by Shamans in American Indian tribes is along the same lines. Am I right?

hijabihippie

"The white man goes into his house of prayer and talks about Jesus.
The red man goes into his house of prayer and talks to Jesus".
--from The Whole Earth Catalog

BibleGuy

Hi Lurker,

Yes, I believe you are right.

MannyBoy

I am not sure where to find your reference to the "clear heat upon herbs". I generally use the NIV translation to English. I think you are using the King James Version translation. This can be why the verse looks unfamiliar to me?!? However, Isaiah 18:4 from the NIV translation says "...I will remain quiet and will look on from my dwelling place, like shimmering heat in the sunshine, like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest ..." I think this is the verse you are mentioning.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect you are using an online Bible search site and looking for Bible verses that include the word "herb" or other words like that. This is a good way to locate new verses on a topic, but I will warn you it is a bad way to learn from interpreting the Bible. (Again, you may not be doing this, but then let me elaborate for others.)

Reason one: As we see above, using English wording only, we run into trouble because different English translations use different words for the same Bible word (Hebrew in this case). Your translation used the English "herb", my translation used the English "harvest". It's not that one is right or wrong. It's just that searching by this method will miss many verses. A better way would be to search the Bible using the original language word.

Problem two: potentially misunderstanding the meaning of the word. Is the author's intention really to convey God's observation like heat on herbs (like oregano, parsley, and so on) specifically? Or perhaps cannabis even more specifically (even though there does not seem to be anything here to support narrowing down this large category noun to this specific species)? Or was it the author's intention to mean crops like a harvest? A check of a Bible commentary or a Bible dictionary using this verse and the actual Hebrew noun here would clear this up.

Problem Three: The big Kahuuna! To really understand what a Bible verse means, we cannot remove it from the context in which it appears. I cannot stress this enough. This is Bible 101. In this instance, God is speaking a prophecy against Egypt (Cush is a part of modern day Egypt) through Isaiah. Actually, this section falls in a larger part of Isaiah where God calls out all of Israel's neighbors who have been enemies of His people.

For us growers this message from God in the surrounding verses sounds very familiar. God says he is watching while the nation of Cush is vegging like a plant in the field under the sun. He says a time is coming when harvest will be upon Cush. It will be chopped down. With sharp pruning tools He will chop the branches and leaves and blossoms. The best (the bud?) will be brought to God and the fan leaves and stems will be left in the field for the wild animals.

You see, like most Biblical prophecy, this story is metaphor. The plant/herb/whateverthatgrows stands for the nation of Cush. The flower/bud/fruit/grain stands for the harvest - the thing you grew the plant for in the first place. The irony is Cush did all of the work of planting and caring for the plant. God is providing the sun and waiting to take the harvest.

Now, one (not necessarily you BG) can try to make the case that "the Bible" supports marijuana by using this verse. But this is very off base. This verse is from a story of prophecy. It was presented to a generally illiterate agrarian people over 3,000 years ago in a way that they would understand and would stick with them. Yes, I believe it would be poor Biblical interpretation to force fit this particular story as Biblical evidence for marijuana.

MannyBoy

Similar to the Isaiah quote. This time the prophet is Ezekiel. Ezekiel was the prophet when Israel was in exile and captivity in a foreign land. They were predominately down hearted and longing to return to the land of their forefathers (Israel).

God uses Ezekiel in the story about the metaphor of a shepherd. Again, a very familiar figure for these people of the land. God starts the prophecy telling them about His judgement of their former shepherds (representing their former religious and political leaders). They did not protect them and in fact unjustly stole from them. These former shepherds did not feed them, but rather took too much of their food for themselves. They did not search for the stray sheep, but rather tended to their own wants. God says He is against these former shepherds and will hold them to account. In fact, in a moment of ultimate irony, God says they being the fat sheep will be the ones to be slaughtered. The thin sheep they have denied food are safe.

God then says a time is coming when He Himself will be their shepherd. This is ultimately fulfilled when He sends Jesus to the world BTW. He will gather them from the scattered places. He will feed them. He will protect them. He will bring them to a safe place. He will bring them back to their own land (Israel) a land flowing with milk and honey. Here is where the verse you mention falls: EZ 34:29 "I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations."

I think it is clear. The word "crops" in this prophecy is just that - crops. Stuff to eat. Especially in the context of "no longer be victims of famine," crops has to be some sort of food. Again, the context would argue against an interpretation of the crops being marijuana.

Now, I am not saying the Bible speaks against the use of marijuana. I am saying it is wrong, and actually works against our goals to legalize pot, to just say the Bible means "marijuana" when the English translation uses a word like "herb". Not only is this wrong. It makes us look sloppy and willing to twist things to our own ends.

We ought to be looking for instances of mention of a plant in the Bible that may have been cannabis ("calamus"?). If we can find something like this, then we can speak of the Bible affirming or nor denying cannabis use. A second alternative is focus on God creating cannabis as part of His creation and calling it "very good". Of course, this implies responsible use. In the end, the Bible is not a rule book. It does not intend to say "yes" or "no" for everything. Yet, by understanding the Bible in a holistic way we can see God's intent for humans as Jesus says "To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you do these things you will fulfill the law (He means the Old Testament law of God)."

MannyBoy

Here is my take.

Malachi is another prophet of God. He is sent specifically to the leaders of Israel who have not been just and righteous. The leaders have been complaining that God's judgement is not fair. Here God is giving some evidence, like in a courtroom, for His judgement.

In these verses God speaks against the priests of His temple who's job it is to sacrifice animals for their sins (no small thing!). They are disrespecting Him and holding His reputation before the people in contempt by sacrificing diseased, lame, blemished, or otherwise clearly unacceptable animals for sacrifice. God clearly laid out the type of animal for sacrifice as "spotless and without defect" (later fulfilled by the sacrificial death of Jesus). This kind of animal makes sense when you consider that the left over meat was to be used for the priest's families and the poor of the nation.

God is basically saying what kind of God would accept sacrifices like this crap when you keep the best animals for yourself? You wouldn't even give this junk as payment for your civil taxes that doesn't require spotless animals. Am I not just in judging you for this sin? It would be far better to shut the doors (sorry, but the text is plural here) of the Temple and not offer sacrifices at all than to keep doing it the way you are!!! BTW, they used the alter fire to burn up the portion of the animal (sacrifice) meant for God.

Verse 11 basically says God's name will be great among the nations from the rising to the setting of the sun (the whole world). I basically agree with Sage with this one exception, this is written in future tense "will be". I feel God is foreshadowing the day when He will be worshipped (incense then was used for worship) as He is now by all nations not just one (Israel).

I think we will differ on the incense interpretation BG. That's ok. You know my position is incense as metaphor for worship of God. Especially here in a prophecy where God frequently and often uses metaphor for His audience presumably as a memory aid for them.

movie

All this crap is what made the Rastas discount the Bible. It was written by ignorant mideast radicals. The same ones who have killed over 3,000 US troops. All wars have had religious overtones. If there was a God he would not put up with this shit.

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Member of the Best Marijuana Forum in the world.

BibleGuy

Hi Manny,

Thanks for responding. Haven't seen you here in a while... Happy New Year!

I totally agree with taking things in context, and your metaphorical interpretation may be right on. Passages can also have multiple meanings or layers, perhaps this is one of them. My opinion is that this verse also has to do with understanding and how to acquire it, i.e., meditation.

Yes, I use mostly the KJV but I like to get to the original language (as you suggested) definitions/meanings because the English in whichever translation can put a unique spin on meaning that may not be correct or as fully revealing as the original language.

"herbs" in Isaiah 18:4 is אוֹר 'owr (ore), meaning illumination or luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.). This is translated "sunshine" in the NIV. So, just to clarify, it is "herbs" (KJV) and "sunshine" (NIV) that are from the same Hebrew word. The KJV translator apparently recognized heat upon "herbs" (which ever one(s) you take that to mean) is illuminating. Understanding this, the preceding statement becomes clear: "I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place". In Hebrew this is "shaqat nabat makown", literally "repose... scan... basis" which I take to mean rest and meditate in his basis, that is breath (basis of life and intellect). "clear heat upon herbs" produces smoke which is experienced in these terms via breath. As I see it, this verse identifies this means of meditation which is 'owr (illuminating).

If the verse were specifying "sunshine", the explicit Hebrew word for sunshine is Shimshown (sunlight) or Shimshay (sunny), both from Shemesh (the Sun). Why was the Hebrew not Shimshown or Shimshay if "sunshine" were the intended meaning? There are other Hebrew words to reference/imply the physical Sun(shine) as well. I think 'owr was used because the intended meaning is mental/spiritual "illumination" found via such meditation, not physical light.

That's my take on the meaning of Isaiah 18:4 where, while 'owr does not directly specify cannabis, meditation herbs are clearly identified elsewhere in scripture.

Thanks for your other posts too. I'd like to respond to them a little later (gotta run right now...)

Peace.

SageTree

Thanks MannyBoy....that totally jump the wall right past me about those all being prophets.

A pleasure reading that MB...I'm skipping church for like 3 weeks after those sermons

Oh wait... I've already missed like 10 years

Now I jest....Seriously. Thanks for a good take on things.

In the end, I feel, we have to know what we think first and see what justifies it in scripture and not to justify the scripture with our feelings. I read lots of religious, spiritual and philosophical texts. Some of it puts into words my feelings and other parts don't instantly click or click at all. I don't think that makes me or the text irrelevant.

Life changes and so do the metaphors that explain and help us grasp our connection to Life.

Without a deep historical understanding these examples of old can some times be skewed in translation. That is actually a large part of what got me interested in existential texts. What was happening at the time to pick a certain story's characters or plot, was it a response to something or a totally new plot. Understanding Hindu philosophy and Indian Philosophy has often helped me make sense of Buddha's teachings relating the Dharma.

Namaste
SageTree

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MannyBoy

Thanks for the post movie. I don't agree with your thoughts, but I fully support your freedom here to express them.

I would like to say too many have died on both sides in this senseless war. It does not honor God nor man. My thoughts.

BibleGuy

Ok, I see your point of view. Again, perhaps there are multiple layers to interpretation, and I certainly won't argue with yours. I do note some interesting things though:

You mentioned Cush in your previous post. Cush is Ethiopia and there are some interesting things to note about it. For one, an association with Jamaica via the Rastafari/Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church movements who's "Plant of Renown" (in KJV terms), cannabis, is well known. The Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church claims to originate from the Copts (Egyptians) who accepted the teachings of St. Mark, and seems to hold that Jesus was initiated by the Essenes according to the ancient traditions of the prophets... I'm aware that the Rastafari is modern movement not of biblical times, but some lean on this Coptic use of cannabis. Also, Cush, or Kush (cognate) is a mountain range, the Hindu Kush, from which a strain of cannabis gets it's name... Now, I'm not trying to establish a doctrine based upon loose or semi-interesting associations, but I find these things more than that. Like cognates in language, with Cush and Ethiopia we have a sort of cognate imagery. Signs, perhaps. Things to pay attention to. Whether termed a "plant of renown" (KJV) or "a land renowned for its crops" (NIV), the implication is, as you said food for a suppressed people. And what plant/crop/food associated with these lands is both "of reknown" and is also the most nutritious plant-food on the planet? It happens to be cannabis. Is this just a weird coincidence, or is our attention being drawn to recognize this? Perhaps the "harvesting" of "Cush" relating to feeding the people has another meaning?

Being ultimately fulfilled in Jesus (I agree with you) is also noteworthy as he is the "Christ" / "Messiah" meaning, very specifically, "anointed". YHVH's anointing oil is the Exodus 30:23 oil infused with qaneh bosem, i.e., cannabis, the "calamus" translation that you mentioned. Jesus became "Messiah", via his anointing. He is the metaphoric "plant of reknown" anointed with the green growing "plant of reknown" (qaneh bosem) - he, and it, are healing and real food for the people both spiritually and physically.

I'm all for focusing on correct translation (cannabis vs. calamus) which would probably make the most sense to any authority willing to even consider the subject in reference to legalization. However, my personal reason for participating on yahooka, especially the Spiritual Smoke thread, isn't about legalization, but spirituality, knowledge, truth, sharing and peace, and how cannabis relates to these things from a biblical perspective. I view the battle for legalization as external to this thread, so I'm not attempting to generate specifically legal arguments.

So........ that's my heretical opinion.

BibleGuy

Thanks Manny,

I agree with you regarding animal sacrifices. The incense thing is clear to me though (in my own mind).

Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand. (Malachi 1:10, KJV)

This is followed directly with continued statements about incense. The "kindle" on the alter in v10 is incense. And v10 is akin to this illustration:

Who would put out a candle in a dark room for no reason? Likewise, no one lights a candle in a dark room for no reason. You light it to give light to the room. You snuff it to darken the room.

v10 means, in my opinion, that you kindle (incense, and partake of it) in order to open the door (of communion). Snuffing the incense closes that door which is why the rhetorical question is posed: "Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought?" This is a striking question, like a slap, that I believe this was a simple and obvious illustration to the priests being questioned here.

"doors" is plural in English. The word is deleth in Hebrew which means something swinging, i.e. the valve of a door. The root of Deleth is dalah, meaning 1) (properly) to dangle, i.e. to let down a bucket (for drawing out water), and 2) (figuratively) to deliver. Here we have, in a word, the imagery of drawing the Water of Life (Jesus and the woman at the well) as well as deliverance itself, that is, the essence of Christ who was anointed with this stuff and thus is himself "the door" (John 10:9) anointed with the essence that, here in Malachi, opens the door. The imagery is also of communion/oneness as Hebrew deleth = Greek delta, a triangle, like the river delta: the "door" that the river (people) passes through to become one with the ocean (God); the lesser joining the greater. This image is scribed even in the Earth.

Going on to his name being great among the heathen/gentiles (goy)... I agree that he is referring to all nations as the priests of Isreal have rejected his sacrament. From now on wherever incense is offered among the heathen his "name" (as in appelation, yes, but also, perhaps more accurately, "character" and/or "authority") is great/enlarged. The future tense of "will be" (NIV) or "shall be" (KJV) is interpolative text that is not in the Hebrew but reads fluidly in English.

I really, really, honestly hope that I don't seem abrasive in any way. This is my strong, sincere, opinion and I'm just trying to be clear about it. Taking incense as a metaphor is exactly what the church has done, hence incense of any kind is (almost completely) eradicated from mainstream Christianity and the "anointing" is viewed (almost completely) in a metaphysical sense with any "oil" actually used being merely "symbolic" and of various recipes as if any specific recipe is irrelevant. I think this "symbolizing" of the sacraments, thus their elimination, is a crime against the followers of Christ. I realize that I'm probably sounding Gnostic, but so did Jesus:

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge (gnosis): ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. (Luke 11:52, KJV)

I'm glad we all have a place to share our perspectives, even if we disagree. I'm just another brother finding his way and honestly wishing peace for all.

BG