Christian Mysticism and Other findings: A personal exploration

**SageTree** · 12-10-2009, 03:28 PM

"Christian Mysticism:"

From these articles:
Christian mysticism
Wesleyan Arminianism

Found this reading about Christian meditation and saw that a certain type, not the whole thing, was considered heresy by the Roman Catholic Church. So of course prohibition makes one curious and I looked to read about 'Quietism'

This along with Christian Perfection and Christian-Mysticism-(African) has begun to paint a very interesting portrait of myself and my beliefs. This is the Christian thought/philosophy that I truly feel that I was cultivating in my early years raised as a Christian...(no wonder I practically canned myself asking questions about this sort of thing.) Since much of it was considered heresy well before the Reformation, in which the Protestant sect I was raised in was yet to come even later than this.

What I see here is an amazing blending of the Hindu yogas, specifically, Bhakti Yoga or devotional union with Brahman, via seeing the True Nature of Self(Atman), and the Buddhist definition of Atman, which is to say,(Anatman) Non/Not-Self, yet seem to get the same ends of True Nature (This is mentioned on the Meister Eckhart link as to how his ideas are 'stampable' as Buddhist-like). As well touching my fascination and connection with the Sufi's metaphysics/meditation(murakaba). All of which speak loudly to me about dissolving barriers between I, me, mine and the World/Spirit of Life.

Quote:

Quietism is a Christian philosophy that swept through France, Italy and Spain during the 17th century, but it had much earlier origins. The mystics known as Quietists insist, with more or less emphasis, on intellectual stillness and interior passivity as essential conditions of perfection. All have been officially proscribed as heresy in very explicit terms by the Roman Catholic Church.

Quote:

Origins of Quietism

The state of imperturbable serenity or ataraxia (lucid state) was seen as a desirable state of mind by Epicurus, Pyrrhonian and the Stoic philosophers alike, and by their Roman followers, such as the emperor Marcus Aurelius.
Quietism has been compared to the Buddhist doctrine of Nirvana.
The possibility of achieving a sinless state and union with the Christian Godhead are denied by the Roman Catholic Church.

Among the ideas seen as errors and condemned by the Council of Vienne (1311-12) are the propositions that humankind in the present life can attain such a degree of perfection as to become utterly sinless; that the "perfect" have no need to fast or pray, but may freely grant the body whatsoever it craves (a tacit reference to the Cathars or Albigenses of southern France and Catalonia), and that they are not subject to any human authority or bound by the precepts of the Church. Similar assertions of individual autonomy on the part of the Fraticelli led to their condemnation by John XXII in 1317. The same pope in 1329 proscribed among the errors of Meister Eckhart the assertions that we are totally transformed into God just as in the sacrament the bread is changed into the body of Christ and the value of internal actions, which are wrought by the Godhead abiding within us.

Quietism may have had some indirect effect on the mysticism of the great 16th century Spaniards, Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, but there were clearly other influences. It should be made clear that both Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross were very active reformers and that both cautioned against a simple-minded "don't think anything" (no pensar nada) approach to meditation and contemplation; further, both remained firmly committed to the authority of the Catholic Church.

Quietism's primary defender was Miguel de Molinos, referred to by the Catholic Encyclopedia as the "founder" of Quietism. The apostle of the Quietist movement in 17th-century France was Molinos' correspondent, the prolific writer Mme Guyon, who won an influential convert at the court of Louis XIV in Madame de Maintenon and an ally within the Catholic hierarchy in Archbishop Fénelon.

Molinos and the doctrines of Quietism were finally condemned by Pope Innocent XI in the Bull Coelestis Pastor of 1687. A commission in France found most of Madame Guyon’s works intolerable and the government confined her, first in a convent, then in the Bastille. In 1699, after Fénelon’s spirited defense in a press war with Bossuet, Pope Innocent XII prohibited the circulation of Fénelon’s Maxims of the Saints, to which Fénelon submitted at once. The inquisition's proceedings against remaining Quietists in Italy lasted until the eighteenth century.

Theology

Quietism states that man's highest perfection consists of a self-annihilation, and subsequent absorption, of the soul into the Divine, even during the present life. In this way, the mind is withdrawn from worldly interests to passively and constantly contemplate God. Quietists would say that the Bible describes the man of God as a man of the tent and the altar only, having no part or interest in the multitudinous affairs, pursuits, and pleasures of the world system.
Quietists were so called from a kind of absolute rest and inaction, which they supposed the soul to be in when arrived at that state of perfection which they called the unitive life; in which state, they imagined the soul wholly employed in contemplating its God, to whose influence it was entirely submissive, so that he could turn and drive it where and how he would. In this state, the soul no longer needs prayers, hymns, &c. being laid, as it were, in the bosom, and between the arms of God, in whom it is in a manner swallowed up.

*As a side: Explaination of Self in Buddhism and/vs Hinduism - *
Please bear with the wiki-links...I use them only when they agree with my prior understandings and outside finding.

"More Cool Findings About Christianity"

Recently I have been looking into the roots and history of the particular sect of Christianity I was raised in, which is the United Methodist, which is itself a type of Methodism. So I started reading about John Wesley. He was Arminian, however took liberties to define it himself as he was inspired. His quote in on Christian perfection.

However I thought it fit well beside the article on mysticism in relation to a very eastern sounding approach to Christianity, which I really jive with.

The idea of a mystic isn't so new to me, but this is a set of words that i thought would be interesting to share, and a side of Christianity I wasn't familiar with beyond Quakers, but has nothing specifically to do with Methodism. Although nothing seem to doctrinally oppose Methodist practice, if one was inclined that way.

But of 'heresy' I'm not certain if it would be a good topic to discuss openly in a Methodist meeting as touching God ourselves might sound like it pushes out Jesus from the equation, which I don't find that it does, rather embraces his tie to God, imo.

Trinitarian or Unitarian, Jesus as a guru of consciousness, part and parcel of God, or both; This practice and connection is as valid as the actions of goodness we put into motion because of it.

Quote:

From Wiki~"Christian mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of the Christian God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Christian mysticism usually centers on a practice or practices intended to nurture those experiences or awareness, such as deep prayer (ie. meditation, contemplation) involving the person of Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. This approach and lifestyle is distinguished from other forms of Christian practice by its aim of achieving unity with the divine. In the words of Oswald Chambers, "We receive His blessings and know His Word, but do we know Him?"

Whereas Christian doctrine generally maintains that God dwells in all Christians and that they can experience God directly through belief in Jesus, Christian mysticism aspires to apprehend spiritual truths inaccessible through intellectual means, typically by learning how to think like Christ. William Inge divides this scala perfectionis into three stages: the "purgative" or ascetic stage, the "illuminative" or contemplative stage, and the "unitive" stage, in which God may be beheld "face to face.........."

".......For Christians the major emphasis of mysticism concerns a spiritual transformation of the egoic self, the following of a path designed to produce more fully realized human persons, "created in the Image and Likeness of God" and as such, living in harmonious communion with God, the Church, the rest of humanity, and all creation, including oneself. For Christians, this human potential is realized most perfectly in Jesus, precisely because he is both God and human, and is manifested in others through their association with him, whether conscious, as in the case of Christian mystics, or unconscious, with regard to spiritual persons who follow other traditions, such as Gandhi. The Eastern Christian tradition speaks of this transformation in terms of theosis or divinization, perhaps best summed up by an ancient aphorism usually attributed to Athanasius of Alexandria: "God became human so that man might become God."

This is one interesting concept I never was taught in church. Yet I feel this IS how I sought to be the best Christian I could and that mysticism was how I experienced God. And Wesley further expounds on an idea that falls into my realm and an understanding of what enlightened states look like.

Quote:

From John Wesley~" Christian perfection – According to Wesley's teaching, Christians could attain a state of practical perfection, meaning a lack of all voluntary sin by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, in this life. Christian perfection (or entire sanctification), according to Wesley, is "purity of intention, dedicating all the life to God" and "the mind which was in Christ, enabling us to walk as Christ walked." It is "loving God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves". It is 'a restoration not only to the favour, but likewise to the image of God," our "being filled with the fullness of God". Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean we no longer violate the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have continued need to pray for forgiveness and holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather says that, "Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ."

Now back in the day I may not have object to the last line, yet I always was asking 'why' about other religions, in regard to them 'not being valid'.

Buddhism was the first path I turned to when I accidentally found myself meditating one night after smoking a joint while reading the Bible. Buddha intrigued me so because the path to follow was really clear to me, and felt like the code I had already lived in a life emulating JC. But the best was there was no resurrection to get around in reason. Which I came to understand personally through a Hindu explanation of bodily death and Christ consciousness. That was last Oct some time.

I have been amazed by and humbled by many spiritual explanations. As well as inspired when I've incorporated concepts and principles to expand my thinking. Questioning what I know and pondering what knowing means, and also if I don't already know and I'm just thinking about it too much

But it's been fun finding ways to explain what I feel and love it when I find a group of words to catch it for a second. This is as much a hobby as a practice.

But for years I've been trying to learn to incorporate the metaphors and words from the book with which I was raised and know well.

Several years ago I read 'The Last Temptation of Christ', which was 'historically' accurate enough and 'fictional' enough to get my metaphor muscles pumped. And I began reading the Bible in regular rotation with other texts.

So recently like I said I've been exploring my birth socialization to God and examining it to find my beliefs in it words. The Gospel of course being my main concern, but also within and through out.

Rather than in Biblical form, today I read these refreshing thoughts and are a starting point, for me, to examine deeply with my own reason and belief. These sound a lot like Christian Hinduism to me in a way since Union and Enlightened states are presented. Why then shouldn't they be paired?

It's neat to read about, what seems, to be a less talked about side of the faith, yet one that seems confounding to consider that not all people who I went to church with were buzzing about, as it seems part in parcel of connection.

I have sat in meditation circles contemplating Buddha's and I have sat in silent worship with Friends, or Quakers and have felt the same moving energy. A long time ago I heard a monk talk about a man that was directed back to Christianity to be understood first, before he found Buddhism suitable for him to teach to this man. I don't know if that guy ever made it back, but it sent me on a search. And each day lately I have found a teaching from a Reverend or Bishop or read a theology that jives. People who have insisted from with in large bodies like the Catholics, or from those like Wesley who stayed and Anglican, yet formed the Methodist Church, that they Love God and are committed to live a Christ like life, as other Christians and their path is equally relevant.

Interesting note John Wesley started Methodism in Lincolnshire, which is next to Leicestershire, which has a civil parish by my families name. And in the church I grew up in there were great, great x2, great x3 and great x4 grandparents of mine. Kind of whack historical notes about coming really far from 'home' and having all the comforts of the mother land!

Please enjoy this offering as an insight into mapping my Self, where it's come from, how it relates to others and where it's going.

Namaste,
SageTree

BibleGuy · 12-11-2009, 11:56 AM

Wow, my brother... very interesting and inspirational! I had no idea that John Westly had such a viewpoint. I really didn't know anything about him. I have been to Methodist churches and never picked up on a mysticism vibe.

"Christian mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of the Christian God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. ... Christian mysticism usually centers on a practice... its aim of achieving unity with the divine."

"Communion" is a combination of "Common" + "Union", that which we share in common because it provides unity: Westly's "unity with the divine". There is communion in the OT as well.

"In the words of Oswald Chambers, "We receive His blessings and know His Word, but do we know Him?"

Great question. One that really got my attention when I read Jesus' words in Revelation:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23, NET

The Greek words translated "never knew" mean "not even at any time, i.e. never at all" + "to "know" (absolutely)". He never, ever knew them absolutely (intimately). There are millions who work in his name and participate in "communion", yet he makes the very serious statement above. This "Knowing", actual unity, seems to be of utmost importance.

"Whereas Christian doctrine generally maintains that God dwells in all Christians and that they can experience God directly through belief in Jesus, Christian mysticism aspires to apprehend spiritual truths inaccessible through intellectual means..."

Psalms 46:10, KJV, reads "Be still, and know that I am God...". "Be still" means to slacken. "Know" means (properly) to ascertain by seeing. I believe this means to stop thinking and instead see God (with the third eye), which agrees with Westly's statement above. The nature of "Knowing" is not intellectual. Jesus echoed this in terms of entering "as a little child" in Mark 10:15.

William Inge divides this scala perfectionis into three stages: the "purgative" or ascetic stage, the "illuminative" or contemplative stage, and the "unitive" stage, in which God may be beheld "face to face.........."

This reminds me of Moses. There is only one place that I'm aware of were he met God (YHVH) "Face-to-face" and that is the "Tent Of Meeting". Seems very significant...

".......For Christians the major emphasis of mysticism concerns a spiritual transformation of the egoic self, the following of a path designed to produce more fully realized human persons, "created in the Image and Likeness of God"... Athanasius of Alexandria: "God became human so that man might become God."

This rings of Hinduism and Buddhism in terms of ego and unity. So if I believe in Jesus according to mainstream doctrine does this make me a fully realized human? Have I become God? Do I actually mirror him? I dunno... Jesus said

I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father. (John 14:12, NET)

It seems to me that this fruit by which we recognize the tree (follower) must be born of the unity that mysticism is all about.

I certainly haven't "arrived", but I recognize the importance and goal of mysticism. I want to know and be known by the Creator, then my life and actions will naturally fall in line.

Thanks for this thread, Sage. You gave me some stuff to chew on for sure. I was especially grabbed when you said "I accidentally found myself meditating one night after smoking a joint while reading the Bible" and where this has lead you. This is a very profound realization and there is a valuable lesson in it for all of us. Interesting... Even the term "joint" expresses the lesson in it's meaning.

Mydriasis · 12-11-2009, 01:00 PM

Interesting I think I would consider myself a Christian mystic. My only twist on it from my limitted knowledge(aka these excerpts you shared

), is, I don't think Christ is necassarily involved in the communion with god.

Not to deny Jesus of any importance. It's just I believe Christ had to live a very different life, whereas I have to live my own life on my own path. However, I think using Christ as a model is a very adequate thing to do to attain the "holyness" or a full holy spirit. I believe we are all the sons and daughters of God, just like Christ. We are all made different for a reason

.

But I also believe there are a few other things to be thrown into the mix, and maybe a few things to take out from the "Christ Model". Depending on who you are, where you live, and when your living. I am not going to make a list because I think we all know deep down inside the guidelines for a positive and spiritual existence.

It is just a matter of removing the veils and not letting the wind's blow them to cover up your inner light again.

I had no idea such a thing existed

.

**SageTree** · 12-11-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Wow, my brother... very interesting and inspirational! I had no idea that John Westly had such a viewpoint. I really didn't know anything about him. I have been to Methodist churches and never picked up on a mysticism vibe.

which agrees with Westly's statement above.

Before I reply I wanted to clarify that Wesley's comments are on Christian perfection and have nothing specifically to do with Mysticism. I correct my intro to clarify that.

Not that it changed what else you said. I just want to say that is why you might not has picked up on it. Christian perfection was his bag and I just thought it fit neatly when applied with mysticism.

-Sage-

Mydriasis · 12-11-2009, 01:28 PM

Okay I see now! So Christian Mysticism could also be incorporated with Methodism.(trying not to repeat what you've already stated hehe)

I still feel the way I felt about Christian Mysticism but my banter about the jesus part is kind of irrelevant hehe.

Nice edit though, it reads much smoother

.

**SageTree** · 12-11-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

This rings of Hinduism and Buddhism in terms of ego and unity. So if I believe in Jesus according to mainstream doctrine does this make me a fully realized human? Have I become God? Do I actually mirror him? I dunno... Jesus said

I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father. (John 14:12, NET)

It seems to me that this fruit by which we recognize the tree (follower) must be born of the unity that mysticism is all about.

I certainly haven't "arrived", but I recognize the importance and goal of mysticism. I want to know and be known by the Creator, then my life and actions will naturally fall in line.

Thanks for this thread, Sage. You gave me some stuff to chew on for sure. I was especially grabbed when you said "I accidentally found myself meditating one night after smoking a joint while reading the Bible" and where this has lead you. This is a very profound realization and there is a valuable lesson in it for all of us. Interesting... Even the term "joint" expresses the lesson in it's meaning.

Let me first say, I will used God here and other exclusive terms of religions that I find and reflect personal meaning inclusivly. In my mind God is a verb, its action and creation, physical laws and principles coupled with my ideas of Consciousness and how energy doesn't die as physics has shown it not to. If there is A God in noun form, I consider It subject to the larger laws of Dharma and not to BE the Dharma itself, only experiencing it. Reader beware

I can't answer your questions about that but I can offer you my thoughts. I am leery of what a mainstream thought it on Jesus, without clarification.

The Jesus I Love to read about the most comes from the Gospel of Thomas, not excluding other gnostic and and canonical accounts. And these gnostics are not mainstream with in most Christian churches, in my experience. So I hesitate to put my mainstream on you.

And about becoming God...I feel that we are part of God, as I've laid out, because we are part of creation, which would infer our breath is 'his' breath. There isn't dualism involved, in my opinion. I'm part of it all and that means all is part of me. It's our buddha-nature if you will. It's there we just have to realize it. Which is also how I interpret the Atman and Brahma in Hinduism. The goal being to dissolve the attachment self, as was mentioned, and see that there isn't a barrier at all between 'us' and the 'world'...we are it, we are nature, we are the same as the cosmos.

I think that knowing if you mirror him is a personal decision between you and you or you and God, which ever you relate more clearly to yourself.

I personally found the moral code in Buddhism really similar in goals and aims. As well they were very clear and had a means of suggested practice. This accessibility, I felt brought me closer to the Dharma Buddha expounded on, and that I was acting in as a Jesusist or though Jesusism if you will. Helping me feel closely aligned with my understanding of Jesus's message.

Buddha's understanding is considered a vehicle to the Dharma, through the 'laws' of Dharma. Which I find compatible with many things familiar in physics. It's truths to get to the Truth, the faith in Buddhism is in His methods as he contends he found something that was always there. And this is how I also consider the words and teaching of Jesus. He is a vehicle in which we know God/Ourselves better and with clarity. Showing us a higher road that will relieve suffering, which is to say, create an understanding of it, allowing us to act more freely and accepting. This is the element of science, we must test and work through these ideas. We can't force physical laws on the world either without something blowing up in our face eventually.

Quote:

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.

I think this also speaks to my non-dualistic beliefs. If we are God or the Universe touching and experiencing itself as a nerve ending, then our understanding should be in accord the Dharma, not resisting it. Therefore this passage says to me, know our understanding is part of a larger consciousness and that we shouldn't assume we can out whit the Universe. And if we rest in that present moment of NOW, they 'He', the Dharma or what have you, is directing our path.

Jesus also offers advice on how to cope with these constant changes in life, and seeks to show us a path to a centred place where we can reside in the present moment of Existence, how to meet God, which inhabits all things.

Sounds familiar? I tried not to cut and paste Buddhism right over that, but to me there IS overlap worth just changing some names to fit the metaphor, speaking in Perennial Ideas of religion, and the understanding of Self.

In Buddhism there exists lists to recognize enlightened states based on consensus, which is as vast as the people who have reported it. So in a way there is a field guide for that 'fruit' as you put it. But still think there are many unidentified species of enlightenment.

Nirvana doesn't come to my understand as a place beyond the present. It's a state of non-dual, non-attachment and awareness to the nature of things. An unshakable knowing it's okay and we can bend to what happens. It's pure awareness.

I think that is enough for now. I will go back and fix my typos.

The most important thing to me is to say, these are words, with meaning, yet that all differs as we do. Trying to put my thoughts into a box isn't my favourite thing to do, but it's a message board, so I must try a little I suppose if anything is going to come from desire to help others.

So please take these as a journal entry about your questions and not an authoritative direct for you to act.

I like what you said about joint. That is pretty funny, and a very apt observation about how words play with out thoughts and our thoughts play with words.

-SageTree

Mydriasis, I like what you had to say, but I don't have as wordy of a response for you. I hope you saw some of your questions touched on.

Namaste.

soma · 12-12-2009, 03:51 PM

I agree with what has been said about Christ and Buddha. I feel experiencing God through Jesus Christ or Buddha enables the unit mind to arrive gracefully at the source of thought, the pure consciousness of God where everything is united and one. This spiritual advancement cleanses the mind of negative experiences and directs it again to God the Father, nirvanna who or what is beyond all thought. I feel Christ’s love leads us to the practice of love and to the subtle states of Christ consciousness where the ultimate state of unity and harmony are experienced. This Reality has a profound influence on the individual and the world because it produces harmony, happiness and the environment for the individual to grow in the understanding of God, Jesus, Buddha and who one really is. As we come to know the nature of God, His unity and Reality we also know more of our own true being as His reflection.

**SageTree** · 12-13-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soma

I agree with what has been said about Christ and Buddha. I feel experiencing God through Jesus Christ or Buddha enables the unit mind to arrive gracefully at the source of thought, the pure consciousness of God where everything is united and one. This spiritual advancement cleanses the mind of negative experiences and directs it again to God the Father, nirvanna who or what is beyond all thought. I feel Christ’s love leads us to the practice of love and to the subtle states of Christ consciousness where the ultimate state of unity and harmony are experienced. This Reality has a profound influence on the individual and the world because it produces harmony, happiness and the environment for the individual to grow in the understanding of God, Jesus, Buddha and who one really is. As we come to know the nature of God, His unity and Reality we also know more of our own true being as His reflection.

Thanks for sharing your personal thoughts with us. I get a little hung up on gendered nouns for a sec

but I follow and feel what you are saying.

soma · 12-13-2009, 10:36 AM

I understand what you are saying about gender. Salutations to the divinity within you.

**SageTree** · 12-13-2009, 11:05 AM

Namaste

Mydriasis · 01-16-2010, 08:56 AM

This is a very cool branch of Christianity. I like this a whole lot, now whether it's for me or not I couldn't really say. Being mindful of a higher power every day all day, might take away the fun in being alive.

I find it no coincedence though that all these religions tie into each other on one level or another.

**SageTree** · 01-16-2010, 10:23 AM

I think that being aware of God/dess or what have you, really effects how the Self and 'Me/I/Mine' are viewed.
Slowly and surely I've began to feel that blending 'me' is just a wall ever so thin, that still means I have to step around something to experience the full force and realization that I am not different.
To me life is like a plasma where we manifest or light up the space in which we stand, rather than being a permanent object moving in time.

I don't find it coincidental either my friend. And I don't feel that it can be totally blamed on trade routes as many practices from far off and unreachable lands have come to the same conclusions. The languages are different but the concept remains close.

I'll take a risk here and say that I at sometimes feel no more Buddhist than Christian than Pagan than Sufi than etc.... I say risk because I am not 'A' thing as I don't practice ritually any religion.

Buddhism is a the Way I chose to 'put my chips on' because I feel that from there, many paths become accessible through it's concept of questioning and reason, which is encouraged and accepted.

Ciclically there is a prominent place for the elements in Buddhism, that are used for explanation/metaphor, which surely comes from a Pagan background, of which ALL came from. And this perhaps is my closest belief in a Spirit of Life, which is more like A Tao and how I feel the Dharma, not as abstract, but just Being, a reverence for Being WITH the world and not IN the world.

Largely examining these many paths has helped me make sense of my Christian Youth and maybe I'll make the leap and say the Christianity/Jesusism which is taking form as I learn more about the 'heresies' and how much sense they make and touch inside me.

If nothing else, it's good to finally see my personal path, in a faith tradition I felt was taken from me by 'good' Christian doctrine practitioners.

In the end I live thankfully and aware that my short time in this form is full of many blessed phenomena, of which I am as well.

Namaste
SageTree

Mydriasis · 01-16-2010, 11:00 AM

Quote:

To me life is like a plasma where we manifest or light up the space in which we stand, rather than being a permanent object moving in time.

<- Very nice

.

Don't get me wrong though, in my belief sub-set's I think of God or the Devine as everything in union or collection. So I do agree it's good to realize that we are all a part of the divine. Though perhaps it's just not built into my mind to keep that thought in my mind at all times. Often time's when I contemplate or become more aware of the nature of infinity, I feel very 'high'.

In math class I fuzz out whenever I hear a teacher mention "approaching infinity"(asymptotes ), or 0, or dividing by 0, etc. So I guess what I was trying to say was, sometimes being ultimately aware of the beauty in life/god is too much, when your trying to puts around and do busy work.

I can understand this, but if I were to use it in whole, I wouldn't be able to be as "productive" as I aspire to be(at least not yet), shamefully.

hijabihippie · 01-19-2010, 09:24 AM

Check out Ethiopian Christianity, too.

**SageTree** · 01-19-2010, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hijabihippie

Check out Ethiopian Christianity, too.

Thanks for the reminder. The (African) link, is a direct to the Desert Father's brand of mysticism apart from Christian and other mysticisms. I have been reading and haven't concocted a post of findings about the Copts or Ethiopian Christians. However I knew a while back, that my favourite Gnostic text from Nag Hammadi digs, was found in tact and in practice in both Copt/Ethiopian, traditions. The Gospel of Thomas reads just like another favourite of mine, which is the Dhammapada.

BibleGuy · 01-19-2010, 03:45 PM

"All have been officially proscribed as heresy in very explicit terms by the Roman Catholic Church."

Heresy! Gnosticism! Witchcraft! CALL THE INQUISITOR!!! Never mind Psalms 46:10, Luke 17:21, 1John 2:27.

/brief rant, purpose being to relate that I too feel like you described here:

"If nothing else, it's good to finally see my personal path, in a faith tradition I felt was taken from me by 'good' Christian doctrine practitioners."

I don't want to "label" it, but my path currently includes quieting, stillness, intentionally shutting off my thinking mind in an effort (or perhaps non-effort) to "know" God. This is what I believe Jesus meant when he said you must become as a little child (infant) in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Master Yoda put it this way: "you must unlearn what you have learned." Suzuki calls it Beginner's Mind.

The kingdom is within.

Peace and quietness to all,
BG

**SageTree** · 01-19-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Master Yoda put it this way: "you must unlearn what you have learned." Suzuki calls it Beginner's Mind.
BG

See signature line too

BibleGuy · 01-19-2010, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageTree

See signature line too

Ya I noticed that before. Very cool! I like unlearning things. Makes me feel young again.

But I like learning too.

Kinda like this too:

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” -- Mark Twain

Gotta unlearn what just ain't so.

Canuck Wisdom · 01-19-2010, 10:18 PM

Its late, but I will say, I am too proud or whatever to abandon my identification with christianity, it has been good to me, but most of the time, I dont find any conflict with it when I study the core concepts of other traditions.

bhuddism really appeals to me, I find it to be a very practical, or perhaps philosophical practice that meshes well with faith traditions. I only know so much tho... but perhaps that good

hijabihippie · 01-20-2010, 08:26 AM

"Free your mind and your ass will follow.
The Kingdom of Heaven lies within."
--George Clinton

12-11-2009, 11:56 AM	#2 (permalink)
BibleGuy YaHookan Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 329 Thanks: 137 Thanked 136 Times in 85 Posts	Wow, my brother... very interesting and inspirational! I had no idea that John Westly had such a viewpoint. I really didn't know anything about him. I have been to Methodist churches and never picked up on a mysticism vibe. "Christian mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of the Christian God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. ... Christian mysticism usually centers on a practice... its aim of achieving unity with the divine." "Communion" is a combination of "Common" + "Union", that which we share in common because it provides unity: Westly's "unity with the divine". There is communion in the OT as well. "In the words of Oswald Chambers, "We receive His blessings and know His Word, but do we know Him?" Great question. One that really got my attention when I read Jesus' words in Revelation: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23, NET The Greek words translated "never knew" mean "not even at any time, i.e. never at all" + "to "know" (absolutely)". He never, ever knew them absolutely (intimately). There are millions who work in his name and participate in "communion", yet he makes the *very serious* statement above. This "Knowing", actual unity, seems to be of utmost importance. "Whereas Christian doctrine generally maintains that God dwells in all Christians and that they can experience God directly through belief in Jesus, Christian mysticism aspires to apprehend spiritual truths inaccessible through intellectual means..." Psalms 46:10, KJV, reads "Be still, and know* that I am God...". "Be still" means to slacken. "Know" means (properly) to ascertain by seeing. I believe this means to stop thinking* and instead see God (with the third eye), which agrees with Westly's statement above. The nature of "Knowing" is not intellectual. Jesus echoed this in terms of entering "as a little child" in Mark 10:15. William Inge divides this scala perfectionis into three stages: the "purgative" or ascetic stage, the "illuminative" or contemplative stage, and the "unitive" stage, in which God may be beheld "face to face.........." This reminds me of Moses. There is only one place that I'm aware of were he met God (YHVH) "Face-to-face" and that is the "Tent Of Meeting". Seems very significant... ".......For Christians the major emphasis of mysticism concerns a spiritual transformation of the egoic self, the following of a path designed to produce more fully realized human persons, "created in the Image and Likeness of God"... Athanasius of Alexandria: "God became human so that man might become God." This rings of Hinduism and Buddhism in terms of ego and unity. So if I believe in Jesus according to mainstream doctrine does this make me a fully realized human? Have I become God? Do I actually mirror him? I dunno... Jesus said I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father. (John 14:12, NET) It seems to me that this fruit by which we recognize the tree (follower) must be born of the unity that mysticism is all about. I certainly haven't "arrived", but I recognize the importance and goal of mysticism. I want to know and be known by the Creator, then my life and actions will naturally fall in line. Thanks for this thread, Sage. You gave me some stuff to chew on for sure. I was especially grabbed when you said "I accidentally found myself meditating one night after smoking a joint while reading the Bible" and where this has lead you. This is a very profound realization and there is a valuable lesson in it for all of us. Interesting... Even the term "joint" expresses the lesson in it's meaning.

12-11-2009, 01:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mydriasis Do Not Resuscitate Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,317 Thanks: 840 Thanked 431 Times in 298 Posts	Interesting I think I would consider myself a Christian mystic. My only twist on it from my limitted knowledge(aka these excerpts you shared ), is, I don't think Christ is necassarily involved in the communion with god. Not to deny Jesus of any importance. It's just I believe Christ had to live a very different life, whereas I have to live my own life on my own path. However, I think using Christ as a model is a very adequate thing to do to attain the "holyness" or a full holy spirit. I believe we are all the sons and daughters of God, just like Christ. We are all made different for a reason . But I also believe there are a few other things to be thrown into the mix, and maybe a few things to take out from the "Christ Model". Depending on who you are, where you live, and when your living. I am not going to make a list because I think we all know deep down inside the guidelines for a positive and spiritual existence. It is just a matter of removing the veils and not letting the wind's blow them to cover up your inner light again. I had no idea such a thing existed . __________________ ۞ Last edited by Mydriasis; 12-11-2009 at 01:02 PM.

12-11-2009, 01:28 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mydriasis Do Not Resuscitate Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,317 Thanks: 840 Thanked 431 Times in 298 Posts	Okay I see now! So Christian Mysticism could also be incorporated with Methodism.(trying not to repeat what you've already stated hehe) I still feel the way I felt about Christian Mysticism but my banter about the jesus part is kind of irrelevant hehe. Nice edit though, it reads much smoother . __________________ ۞

12-13-2009, 11:05 AM	#10 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 22,617 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 11,487 Thanked 5,710 Times in 4,025 Posts	Namaste __________________ YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance. "We're not here to judge what's good from bad, But to do the things that are right."

01-16-2010, 08:56 AM	#11 (permalink)
Mydriasis Do Not Resuscitate Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,317 Thanks: 840 Thanked 431 Times in 298 Posts	This is a very cool branch of Christianity. I like this a whole lot, now whether it's for me or not I couldn't really say. Being mindful of a higher power every day all day, might take away the fun in being alive. I find it no coincedence though that all these religions tie into each other on one level or another. __________________ ۞

12-12-2009, 03:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
soma YaHookan Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts	I agree with what has been said about Christ and Buddha. I feel experiencing God through Jesus Christ or Buddha enables the unit mind to arrive gracefully at the source of thought, the pure consciousness of God where everything is united and one. This spiritual advancement cleanses the mind of negative experiences and directs it again to God the Father, nirvanna who or what is beyond all thought. I feel Christ’s love leads us to the practice of love and to the subtle states of Christ consciousness where the ultimate state of unity and harmony are experienced. This Reality has a profound influence on the individual and the world because it produces harmony, happiness and the environment for the individual to grow in the understanding of God, Jesus, Buddha and who one really is. As we come to know the nature of God, His unity and Reality we also know more of our own true being as His reflection.

12-13-2009, 10:36 AM	#9 (permalink)
soma YaHookan Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts	I understand what you are saying about gender. Salutations to the divinity within you.

01-16-2010, 10:23 AM	#12 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 22,617 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 11,487 Thanked 5,710 Times in 4,025 Posts	I think that being aware of God/dess or what have you, really effects how the Self and 'Me/I/Mine' are viewed. Slowly and surely I've began to feel that blending 'me' is just a wall ever so thin, that still means I have to step around something to experience the full force and realization that I am not different. To me life is like a plasma where we manifest or light up the space in which we stand, rather than being a permanent object moving in time. I don't find it coincidental either my friend. And I don't feel that it can be totally blamed on trade routes as many practices from far off and unreachable lands have come to the same conclusions. The languages are different but the concept remains close. I'll take a risk here and say that I at sometimes feel no more Buddhist than Christian than Pagan than Sufi than etc.... I say risk because I am not 'A' thing as I don't practice ritually any religion. Buddhism is a the Way I chose to 'put my chips on' because I feel that from there, many paths become accessible through it's concept of questioning and reason, which is encouraged and accepted. Ciclically there is a prominent place for the elements in Buddhism, that are used for explanation/metaphor, which surely comes from a Pagan background, of which ALL came from. And this perhaps is my closest belief in a Spirit of Life, which is more like A Tao and how I feel the Dharma, not as abstract, but just Being, a reverence for Being WITH the world and not IN the world. Largely examining these many paths has helped me make sense of my Christian Youth and maybe I'll make the leap and say the Christianity/Jesusism which is taking form as I learn more about the 'heresies' and how much sense they make and touch inside me. If nothing else, it's good to finally see my personal path, in a faith tradition I felt was taken from me by 'good' Christian doctrine practitioners. In the end I live thankfully and aware that my short time in this form is full of many blessed phenomena, of which I am as well. Namaste SageTree __________________ YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance. "We're not here to judge what's good from bad, But to do the things that are right."

01-19-2010, 09:24 AM	#14 (permalink)
hijabihippie YaHookan Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,587 Thanks: 1,153 Thanked 655 Times in 515 Posts	Check out Ethiopian Christianity, too.

01-19-2010, 03:45 PM	#16 (permalink)
BibleGuy YaHookan Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 329 Thanks: 137 Thanked 136 Times in 85 Posts	"All have been officially proscribed as heresy in very explicit terms by the Roman Catholic Church." Heresy! Gnosticism! Witchcraft! CALL THE INQUISITOR!!! Never mind Psalms 46:10, Luke 17:21, 1John 2:27. /brief rant, purpose being to relate that I too feel like you described here: "If nothing else, it's good to finally see my personal path, in a faith tradition I felt was taken from me by 'good' Christian doctrine practitioners." I don't want to "label" it, but my path currently includes quieting, stillness, intentionally shutting off my thinking mind in an effort (or perhaps non-effort) to "know" God. This is what I believe Jesus meant when he said you must become as a little child (infant) in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Master Yoda put it this way: "you must unlearn what you have learned." Suzuki calls it Beginner's Mind. The kingdom is within. Peace and quietness to all, BG

01-20-2010, 08:26 AM	#20 (permalink)
hijabihippie YaHookan Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,587 Thanks: 1,153 Thanked 655 Times in 515 Posts	"Free your mind and your ass will follow. The Kingdom of Heaven lies within." --George Clinton

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