The Rev

It's what we do. We lie. It's what separates us from children, because while they lie, too, they do it in a context in which it isn't approved of, or encouraged. We lie about everything, even to ourselves. We pretend to like things when we don't. We pretend to have things under control when we don't. We hide our feelings (think of how close you have to be to someone just to admit to them that you aren't happy). We even lie to ourselves. So much, so, in fact, that we don't realize we're doing it anymore.

It's more about conformity when you're on your own. Trying not to make waves, trying to fit in to survive (the true rebel doesn't climb the corporate ladder very successfully, if s/he holds a job at all), trying to avoid conflict. When things are bad we say they aren't, when things are good we play it down. When your spouse tells you you look good, do you believe it? Does it have the same emotional impact as if s/he told you otherwise? We expect to be lied to, all the time. We expect the "no making of waves" attitude, and it leaves us numb to anything good others might say.

All this lying cuts us off from each other, tho. There is no expectation of honesty, so while fear might be low, trust is still nonexistant. All we have is our intrepretation of WHY someone might be lying the way they are. "Is he saying I'm talented to shut me up, to soften a blow, or because he means it?" Everyone is just a guess to everyone else.

Consider this the next time you meet a child. We lie the most to them. We convince them we are "grown-ups", beings who understand the world and know something "kids" just don't, or can't. We hide our pain from them, pretend to be happy when we are not to "protect" them, tell them everything's fine when mommy and daddy are really hurt and fighting, etc. We hide our very humanity from them (from fear of losing our influence over them, perhaps; or maybe to prevent frightening them) and the result is that we teach them to hide their own humanity.



The Rev

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Cerebro

the truth can fester under the skin, it wants to get out and when you're exhausted from trying to avoid contact with the truth it will surface
when someone gives you genuine eye contact you know they wont mind hearing the truth and it will surface
my life has been tremendously difficult over the last 2yrs, my fascade has cracked, i can feel now
there are waves all around if you're prepared to step outside of your stronghold

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SageTree

This is a quote I found and then again in this article: How Would the Buddha Date? -Lama Surya Das

I wish you well Rev. And that's no lie

I think Truth and Lying all come down to the intention in doing either of them.

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Mydriasis

Share your pain, express it. Breathe it out and inhale a new breathe. A fresh start.

Hiding pain doesn't make someone an adult.

I feel where your coming from rev, but I have a different angle on it. Maybe I'll never grow up, who knows.

Much <3

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John F. Kerry

""Let all men know thee, but no man know thee thoroughly; men freely ford that see the shallows,""

ben franklin was thinking the same thing rev.

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Nasa under Obama

SageTree

I heard BF was a lib..... a proto-losi, if you will.




SageTree

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Waves

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

The Rev

Perhaps an even more accurate way of saying it is to say that when we communicate, we do so rhetorically more than communicatively. That is, everything is said with it's intended effect being more important than the actual content of the words. "You did a good job" when you failed, for example, is a lie; but the words were not meant to communicate information to you. They were intended to make you feel better. The problem is, since virtually everything we say to one another is like this, the actual meaning of what we say is largely an ignored side effect of interaction.

I took flying lessons many years ago, and was struck with a profound realization. When looking down from the plane, I realized that everything was just what it was, and nothing more. At ground level, you see signs, storefronts, etc. Everything you run into is PRESENTED to you. All you see is rooftops from the plane. There's tar paper or shingles, A/C units, ducts, chimney tops. It's all practical, honest. You just see things as they were intended for their use. Nothing from up there is designed to evoke a response (such as "cool store, think I'll go inside and buy some shit").

There is a superficiality in everything, as if packaging were more important than the contents of the package. And the same is true with our interactions with each other. We are always presenting ourselves, this way or that, to either convince ourselves or others of something (like "I'm cool." or "I'm like you" or "I'm acceptable").

I think it's a means to cope, really. Like Joe Rogan said in Waves' vid above: no one knows what's going on. When we were little, we had our parents to make us feel secure with that; and we were really more honestly ourselves then. As adults, we only have other adults, and what we sacrifice to avoid being shunned or left unprotected is tragic.



The Rev

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Canuck Wisdom

Interesting thoughts rev.

I also like the buddhist link and the rogan video.

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-Knowitall A&P type-

SageTree

As I read this I noticed a lot of absolute language, which doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for exceptions in life, 'good' or 'bad'. To me that seems that you are calling you and us, all Liars. And that in course means everything I ever said to you was self satisfactory bull shit, which isn't at all how I view myself or my intention to help.

What is at the core of this Rev? I feel this set of beliefs is quite divergent from what you usually espouse. I'm glad you chose to share, holding with your point, that we hide feelings too often, we'll say

My belief, paradoxical as it is, Holds that generalizing usually leads to or comes from frustration.

I hope you still can find some good or satisfactory things in your life right now, other wise, what is keeping you going on here, why keep ploughing forward, why not just give up? Is this post a way to create change or just share thoughts?

Much love and Lying (in the biblical sense

SageTree

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Bodhisattva

"During the longest part of human history - so-called prehistorical times - the value or disvalue of an action was derived from its consequences. The action itself was considered as little as its origin. It was rather the way a distinction or disgrace still reaches back today from a child to its parents, in China: it was the retroactive force of success or failure that led men to think well or ill of an action. Let us call this period the pre-moral period of mankind: the imperative "know thyself!" was as yet unknown. In the last ten thousand years, however, one has reached the point, step by step, in a few large regions on the earth, where it is no longer the consequences but the origin of an action that one allows to decide its value. On the whole this is a great event which involves a considerable refinement of vision and standards; it is the unconscious aftereffect of the rule of aristocratic values and the faith in "descent" - the sign of a period that one may call moral in the narrower sense. It involves the first attempt at self-knowledge. Instead of the consequences, the origin: indeed a reversal of perspective! Surely, a reversal achieved only after long struggles and vacillations. To be sure, a calamitous new superstition, an odd narrowness of interpretation, thus become dominant: the origin of an action was interpreted in the most definite sense as origin in an intention; one came to agree that the value of an action lay in the value of the intention. The intention as the whole origin and prehistory of an action - almost to the present day this prejudice dominated moral praise, blame, judgment, and philosophy on earth. But today - shouldn't we have reached the necessity of once more resolving on a reversal and fundamental shift in values, owing to another self-examination of man, another growth in profundity? Don't we stand at the threshold of a period which should be designated negatively, to begin with, as extra-moral? After all, today at least we immoralists have the suspicion that the decisive value of an action lies precisely in what is unintentional in it, while everything about it that is intentional, everything about it that can be seen, known, "conscious," still belongs to its surface and skin - which, like every skin, betrays something but conceals even more. In short, we believe that the intention is merely a sign and symptom that still requires interpretation - moreover, a sign that means too much and therefore, taken by itself alone, almost nothing. We believe that morality in the traditional sense, the morality of intentions, was a prejudice, precipitate and perhaps provisional - something on the order of astrology and alchemy - but in any case something that must be overcome. The overcoming of morality, in a certain sense even the self-overcoming of morality - let this be the name for that long secret work which has been saved up for the finest and most honest, also the most malicious, consciences of today, as living touchstones of the soul."



"Nietzsche draws a brief contrast between "pre-moral" societies where the value of an action is found in its consequences, and modern, "moral" societies where the value of an action is found in its origin. Today, we praise or blame an action primarily based on its motives. Nietzsche identifies in this an advance over the "pre-moral" valuation since this "moral" worldview places an emphasis on self- knowledge. However, he also looks beyond our "moral" world to an "extra- moral" world that recognizes that the true value of an action lies beneath the conscious level in the unintentional drives that motivate it. We need to "overcome" morality, recognizing that the intentions and motives for actions are just the surface of a far more complex set of drives that need to be uncovered and analyzed.

"Our current morality is based on origins and intentions, so that we say a certain action is good or bad depending on the spirit in which it was performed. Nietzsche sees a simplification of the facts in the way this position assumes that our intentions are simple and transparent. Quite to the contrary, he suggests that our outward intentions are a mere surface that covers up a great deal of unconscious motivation. (For instance, one person's kindness to another might be motivated by an unconscious desire on the first person's part to make herself feel superior to the other.)"

-http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/beyondgood/section4.rhtml

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The Rev

I tend to speak in absolutes as a matter of habit. Sorry about that. I don't believe, though, that this manner of presentation in any way truly confused the point I was making, did it?



The Rev

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The Rev

I don't have any problem with my life right now, and none of what I've said comes from any sense of being fed up with life or anything. Just making observations about something that's been giving me alot of thought lately. Particularly, what does one do about this?

I saw this movie recently called "Revolutionary Road" that really brought this "everyone is lying all the time" phenomenon to mind. I recommend it, it's a thought provoking film. However, there is one character in the story who only tells the truth, but he is considered insane and has even been institutionalized. In my own life, I have found that being honest and open has led to a great deal of misunderstanding about me, if not outright distrust (or worse, people taking advantage of weaknesses that I haven't hidden in the socially accepted ways).

It's a vexing subject.



The Rev

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SageTree

Thanks for the clarification and attempted clarification. I thought this seemed a little heavy on the negative side for my old buddy, who I look up to for ideas on similar concerns in life.


ST

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The Rev

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I've noticed too that the safety of anonymity that the Internet provides makes this problem of false self-presentation less of a problem. People are more likely to openly express how they actually feel. Sometimes, in fact, they get drunk on the freedom and say all kinds of dickish things just because they can! They stop at expressing their own personal vulnerability, naturally, but even there, they don't play it as close to the chest as in real life.

I'm led to believe that this game is 1) a product of earlier times that has carried forward (I mean, look at how full of shit people were in the Victorian Era, for example), and 2) It's something that at our core we don't really want, but are forced to carry forward because we are often dependent upon older people in our lives, and therefore, must live to some degree by their rules, however arbitrary or stifling.

Makes me want to start a Cult of Honesty.



The Rev

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SageTree

It's all good Rev. I agree with what you are saying about message boards and we certainly can use that face-less relationship for good bad or weirdness.

What I'm reading is that the young are tricked by the old in carrying this 'tradition' further.

Do the young have no choice or prudence in the matter?

I think without a doubt we are interconnected.
Where do good rules of practice for community cross from skillful to oppressive?
Do you believe no one is kind and mannerly from love or choice?

How would you dissect the enjoyment of holding doors for a string of strangers at a store, people who feel like they are imposing on me for holding it, when in fact, I'd love to stand and hold that door longer if more people came. Meeting neighbours who are strangers, sharing caring.

Hypothetically how would you label that lying in action?

I'm just hoping to understand this better Rev. I think there are times I figure it would be less shocking to act with in the bounds of a room I'm in. Other times I feel like I'm totally living in accord with my judgment of what should and shouldn't be said. I don't rant about logging practices when I'm working as a cog in the wheel of forest replanting for instance. I took a plunge into an industry I wish would act more responsibly, but am doing the very thing I believe it which is getting more trees in the tree-less forests of BC. This seems like a wise time to bite my tongue and know my action is louder than my words.

I REALLY want to understand Rev, I'm not in left field here, but I'm playing deep on the infield with this one, cause I'm not sure how far the next ball with be hit.

Namaste
SageTree

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farmergiles

Do it!

I think it is fair to lie in the face of bureaucracy and oppression.

But apart from that honesty rules. It isn't always easy.

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Cultivate a stoic calmness

The Rev

I guess I DO need to clarify myself a bit.

I'm not trying to make any moral judgement about lying itself, nor is one implied in what I'm trying to say. Lying doesn't make a person bad, per se. I mean, no one could fault the moral compass of the Gies' family who lied to the Nazi's about the Frank Family hiding in the annex above their offices, right?

The problem with lying that I see is that it divides people. For example, if I lie to my wife about cheating on her, then every time she tells me she loves me, from then on, she's not really talking to me anymore. She loves a guy who never cheated on her, and probably wouldn't if she knew the truth. All lies have this same effect to some degree. False compliments are handed out so freely in our culture that they often have little or no effect. "Oh, you're just saying that to be nice." Can you see how these "white lies" lead to a diminished ability for one person to make another feel good about himself?

And this lying that we do so regularly isn't a character flaw that I would try to pin on anyone in particular. It's a cultural flaw, because it's expected, and it's a normal part of day to day interaction between people. And it's not like everyone being lied to is some hapless victim, either. Often they're complicit: "Does this make me look fat?" Most people who ask questions like these don't want you to tell them the truth.

So how do you approach the world honestly?

I think I've given Sage the impression that it means saying whatever you think, and being a dick alot of the time as a result. Routinely saying hurtful things, however, isn't going to do much for inter-human relations, either. I wouldn't want to live in a world full of insensitive assholes, any more than a world that regularly bullshits itself. I do think it's possible to be both kind and honest, however. But it requires that both parties want kindness and want honesty, and that is why the problem is so vexing. We seem to want the lies.

Thoreau said "the mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." I can't help but think that part of that is the sense of disconnect that we have with others. It's not uncommon for people living in the most populous areas to feel utterly alone, for example. And that this disconnect is, in great measure, a result of the superficial way in which we interract. I'm with Sage in that I like to treat people with kindness out of an honest desire to be kind, but how can THEY tell the difference, in a world where we're shown kindness all day by people who are actually indifferent, but are required to by their employer? "Have a nice day!" Does it mean anything to either the person saying it, or the person hearing it, anymore?

I think all this white lying, and hiding of our feelings, and projecting an image, and other such dishonesty is serving to drive us apart, and turn the world an emotional sort of gray, where everyone is smiling, but no one is happy.



The Rev

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SageTree

Thanks Rev. I'm about to head to bed for some reading. That really settled the silt and made things much more clear. Just wanted to say thanks for such a thoughtful response. Perhaps I'll think of something more to say about 'why', but as it stands I follow ya' and sounds a lot less alarming. I supposed you were in a pickle yourself and not feeling so positive.

Metta,
SageTree

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John F. Kerry

as a slightly more upbeat take on this, part of the lying etc has to do with the way human nature is ugly. but now many people around the world are comming to grips with human nature the same way americans do... by lying casually to maintain good relationships personal and between countries as well... what u said rev, were speaking rhetorically rather than by saying what we mean, but its good in some sense because thats a lot better than all screaming what we mean which may be that we cant stand the other person and then we all just have a huge penis measuring competition and fight, or , war, because instead of casual lies we tell brutal truths...

human nature is a bitch, perhaps in learning to master it and in taming it to enough of an extent that different cultures can coexist without killing each other and wars we may have to devise things like these lies u speak of to help release the pressure so it doesnt build up to far worse things than casual lies.

or maybe im just high.

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Nasa under Obama