John F. Kerry

ok so u had capitalism for a while, and then lots of people got pissed at it , and saw poverty around them and said, ok well communism and socialism might be the way to go....


and then basically they stopped at that.


my question is, it seems like with all the variety of things we see, tvs shows, books, opinions, technology etc. that people would have tried to come up with MORE varieties of poltical thought that simply, ok capitalism doesnt work perfectly, gotta do communism, ok that doesnt work well i guess no new ideas then.


like why havent there been like 20 differnt "isms" to compete with these ....



i know anarchy etc like there are some fringe ideas, but how come people havent come up with some better ideas in the 10000 years of human evolution and development that fix the problems of the current systems witout ruining what is good about them.



political science as i learned it, is mostly about understanding how to win in politics and how to get your agenda passed once youve won.


politlcal "science" really should be- how to get the most people to have the best lives with the least redistribution and taking away from those who already are well off....

it would seem like if we approached these questions in a rational manner , and used science to develop a theory for government the same way we genetically engineer tiny organisms so precisely, that we could arrive at a truth and a way of running things that is far better and fits more of the various needs of EVERYONE , while not impinging upon the rights of those who are already decently well off (ie not simply by redistribution which seems to be the main tenet of socialism).


if there are shortfalls in every system, my question is why dont people devote more time to thinking about (if not implementing) the real way to make things "better".


ps. im not talking about better for a certain group so as to be better for one at the expense of others. im talking about a NET GAIN. its gotta be possible, and i think if the millions of political scientists around the world spent their time thinking about things like this, rather than how to swiftboat their opponents, then maybe we might arrive at some better way, that everyone agrees with .


any thoughts?

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John F. Kerry

like today "progresive" means "socialist" basically or "for redistribution".


but really progressive should mean to make things better, so why do progressives get so hung up on redistribution rather than trying to find ways to really make things better and to PROGRESS....

giving a poor person some of a rich persons money might be a nice thing to do , but it doesnt make society any better or change the fundamental aspects of it, why havent progressives been searching for new ideas and instead seem to just be following 200 year old marxist ideology. ?


they should be searching for ways to empower educate and improve poor people, rather than to give them a couple bucks... they should be looking at how science and genetics and government and technology all interact and trying to use truths inherint in these things to find ways to really improve peoples state, not simply to toss them a couple bucks.

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Cerpin Taxt

Current political systems have entrenched themselves so deeply into in their respective societies that any new ideas can only be those, ideas.

Our entire economy and social structure has been built and maintained on the foundations of capitalism...so much so that it's becoming harder and harder for the average citizen to REALLY know what's going on in politics. Combine the sheer scale of capitalism with this shrouding and you've got a pretty tight stranglehold.

If we were to actually consider new ways in which to structure our political system, we would -- by necessity -- have to restructure the ways in which we live our lives.

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"All memory is really a form of regurgitation of undigested experience."
-Alan Watts

John F. Kerry

not necessarily, why cant we have computer simulations of different economic ideas the same way we have weather forcast prediction models? if we can model the atmosphere accurately i think we can probably model human behavior on a mass scale reasonable accurately ....

we should be having political scientists and people on fox and cnn talking about how they ran 20 simulations of good ways to fix healthcare and here are the objective results- explain the metrics and explain the discrepencies and have people from all sides arguging about it- and in the end we might just by chance stumble upon a miracle...something people hadent even thought of that would fix everything and make people get along again.

people are not creative anymore, the first step shouldnt be that expensive or with high startup costs and it shouldnt be mobilizing the base for whatever comes down the pipeline... the first step should be to think and debate and come up with new ideas. that cause a paradigm shift and rather than causing conflict, people simple look at them and say damn, the earth is round.... and they simply would "understand" whatever is uncovered.

i dunno , it seems possible, i dont think people are creative enough these days, they are creative for the wrong reasons,

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The Rev

Revolutionary political ideas are generally nothing more than a means to sell the people into agreeing to a hand off of power from an old regime to some new regime. "If you make me leader, all your problems will be solved with this new, fairer, way." Problem is, no one seeks power to make the world a better place (or, at least that's not their number one reason), so you're never going to see one of these grand ideas actually pan out. They were never actually meant to.



The Rev

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verklingen

i'm inclined to believe that the people whom the dominant political ideas granted power and influence haven't been too keen on giving it up

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

farmergiles

Ideas come in fits and starts, the ancient Greeks came up with the republic and democracy then very little happened political ideas-wise for a few millenia.

Capitalism would have dated from when, Adam Smith? Didn't really get going until C19th anyway. Socialism started round about the beginning of C20th. Anyway, in historical terms they are both relatively new.

I guess both capitalism and socialism are concerned with economics as well as politics.

But anyway two major political systems in two centuries- that is pretty rapid fire.

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verklingen

if you ask me the distribution of wealth is so skewed that any potential progress requires redistribution:



roughly 80% of our population subsists on less than 10% of our total financial wealth. how can any progress be made in any area of our society when so much wealth is locked up in so few hands? it's straight up eating our country away from the inside

and it only gets sicker when you look on an international level

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

The Rev

When the rich get too busy with each other, and forget the rest of the people, bad things tend to happen. I see that happening now. Huge corporations duking it out for profit maximization as those who people those firms get less and less (both monetary and humanitary) for their efforts. In an age like ours, where the most basic needs are met (food, shelter, etc) for nearly everyone, the need for freedom asserts itself. It did so in the 1960's and 70's, and it is likely to do so again. We live in a rather repressive age, I think, at least where the dignity of the average person is concerned. If the rich don't stop nickel and diming the poor on everything from health care to leisure time to privacy, shit's gonna start breaking down.



The Rev

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farmergiles

Maybe we just need to stop consuming all this trash. We buy into all of this, it's no good just blaming corporations.

If no one bought maccy d's they would stop making shitty burgers.

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John F. Kerry

see like i could see myself being a "progressive" person, i want society to be better and wrongs to be righted and bad things to be made good, but the only "progressives" there are seem to be hell bent on charts that show income distributions and making moral arguments about redistribution.

the reason liberals in america arent the mainstream is probably because every average joe middle class who owns his own 150,000 home feels he has something that the poorest dont have, and that if he sides with the liberals all that will happen is the very poorest people will just take even that away from him in the name of "fairness"...

i think you would find a much broader support for doing the right thing if there were ways to imrprove the lives of the less fortunate without "stealing" from the not so.... ill bet our country would be a majority progressive country if people didnt view progressives as being the people who just want to suck your wallet dry and give it to poor folks so they can go out and not have any better education or change at success but a couple extra bucks today ...


and when you consider how high taxes are already, it just seems that with more intelligent use of that money we could get better results without needing MORE.

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John F. Kerry

to me, this statement makes absolutely no sense, so if you would like to explain it more i would actually be appreciative because i have no idea how you got from a and b to c.



it just seems that to you liberal people PROGRESS MEANS REDISTRIBUTION....

do u believe that?


how come i have a totally different definiton for it?

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SageTree

One question JFK before I even join this with much more zeal than I already lack in politics.

"Trickle down"

Does it exists?



~Sage

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John F. Kerry

before i answe that sage just wanted to make one other point.

ok heres my idea of PROGRESS


lets work really hard across the globe and invent robots to do all the menial labour so that no people are needed to do hard backbreaking work anymore, then at the same time lets educate people to college educated level , and then every person on earth can have good well paying jobs doing stimulating things...now aside from the small small percentage of disabled and injured, whats wrong with that idea?


Redistribution presupposes that the wealth of some is BASED ON the exploitation of others... i dont buy that, or even if it is true, it doesnt HAVE TO BE....

how about lets create a world where everyone can be rich or at least well off, not at the expense of others , but by having every person be a contributing and effective member of society who produces a lot of value thru their efforts and thus EARNS a good life.... that way we dont make poor peoples lives better by taking away other peoples money, we make them better by teaching them to fish so to speak.


doesnt that seem more Progressive than a rehash of stalinist-lenninism?

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farmergiles

liberal?

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SageTree

Firstly, Where did you answer my question?

Secondly, So like, you want machines to do farming and all the trades work like plumbing and electric and gardening? Never saw a machine weed a flower bed.

Personally I can't stand jobs where I 'think' and love manual labour work. Gardening is a Zen Art and part of my spiritual practice, of which I can get paid for.

I think it would be cool if the value of a dollar stayed the same, we all got paid double what we make now and work 20 hours a week so the 40 hour-ers aren't hogging the work. Except executives, scale pay means that someone's job is more important than anothers. If that is so, the 'lesser' or 'greater' job show get nixed, because frankly the executive and bosses of the world would be fucking dead without basic food shelter and water. So unless they know how to do that shit themselves....? ARE they MORE worthy of a higher salary....more than the janitor that keeps their spaces clean so they don't get ill. IMO NO!

Third do you know ANYTHING about socialism beside the red plague fear mongering from the 1950's since you weren't too far behind those years?

Read Marx...It's nearly romanticism, but it's commonly accepted as different that what the USSR propagated.

Lenin isn't a Marxist Neither was Stalin since he was Lenin's protege. Maoism, resembled Leninism, not as much Marxism. And Fidel just wanted to Anything he could to be incontrol. Even Che thought he was fucked, which, imo, is why he's dead.

Socialism doesn't equal fascism. And good luck creating ethical capitalism.... it doesn't exist.... there isn't enough money in the bottom line. Even 'green' companies who 'care' are taking people for a ride.

The more 'advanced' we get the more disease there seems to be in the world.....so if healthcare and basic needs aren't available to everyone for free, to me its bogus and that is capitalism, preying on the week.

/rant

VIVA SOCIALISM
Sage

EDIT:And I'll not even start in on how much food and open land there would be in the world if people would consume 20% less meat even.... basic needs/poverty is why the world is fucked up right now, including all fundamentalism of all religions. Not to mention the amount of fresh water that is used then polluted from the industry. But I'm a bias vegetarian asshole.

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Peace seeker

we neither need a totally-unregulated capitalistic system (we all saw where that ended), nor we need an old skooll socialism that nationalises evertyhing and bankrupts the gvmnt and the people (eventually).

"The system" needs improvements in many areas. Thats prolly why most gmvnts dont manage to do much, when they get elected. They realise how hard it is to change things and how much political cost it involves. So they play they old "blame the previous gvmnt" game for all that has gone wrong.

they stay in office for one or two terms, make their connections (and lots of money) then they get our of gmvnt and open their own companies and cant be fucked for the rest of the people.

While the people pay more and more taxes, while seeing their salaries and assets (house, etc) loose value every year.

its a fucked up system that needs to change asap

gvmnts need to start doing shit

Obama is a good example of a do-er (if they let him change things)

verklingen

ok, i'll explain it as plainly as possible.

it takes money to run a country. households need money, cities need money, states need money, federal government needs money. all the money for everything is generated at the lowest level, by workers supporting their household. 90% of our country's financial wealth is sitting in bank accounts or hopping around wall street to support only 20% of our population. the other 80% of us (including you and everyone you know unless you hang around billionaires) scrap by on what's practically nothing by comparison, all while being relentlessly targeted by advertisements and credit offers that suck what little we do get right back into the pockets of these people. how's that for wealth redistribution

and not only that, we also pay the majority of the taxes that make our cities, states and government run. this means that most of the money to run our country -- from schools and fire departments to the war in afghanistan -- comes from our lowest income earners. and (if they even work anymore) they're earning less and less with more and more being taken away from them. if that's not being eaten away from the inside then tell me just what the fuck is

how else would you make our schools, hospitals, airports, parks, highways, electric grid and space program better? or is that not progress to you? honestly it doesn't seem like you think

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

SageTree

This is a topic you should listen to All of it JFK, if you'd like. This really captures my beliefs.

Even this man, who lost his country to Communism, STILL supports Liberal Socialism, on the platform of human equality.

I'm not a politician, I'm a Lover.

Please enjoy this and see a bit where I come from, The Heart. THIS is what I think progress means.

This part is specifically on Marxism:
FORA.tv - His Holiness the Dalai Lama at The Aspen Institute

Namaste John, I love you.

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John F. Kerry

sage u seem to think i was dissing communism or something , altho i do often diss it,
that wasnt my main desire in this thread.

i was simply wondering why no one has ever tried to come up with something ELSE after capitalism and communism? like, with the variety of things out there, it just seems strange how everyone in the world fell into 2 camps, and no one seemed to care to think critically anymore about how to solve the problems of the world. its either solve them by letting the market take control or solve them by redistribution of wealthy peoples assets to poor people.

i dont know what i would come up with as another alternative, it just seems like there should be a variety of other options, and i was wondering why they never came about.


and then as i was thinking that, i was also thinking that if progressives want to make the world better and right wrongs and shit, why they are so wedded it seems to socialism when there might be a million other ideas out there that can do what they want without pissing the people who dont like socialism off...

its like the health care debate, the liberals said for so long that they wouldnt accept anything but the public option, public option public option, then they realized they could get people affordable access to healthcare in a vareity of other ways without a single payer public option, i think systems of government are the same.


i seriously want trying to diss communism , altho i would if that were the topic , my views on communism and socialism notwithstanding, i just believe there have got to be other ways out there that can fix the wrongs of society without taking away the hard earned lives the many middle class people enjoy, and also, that if we were creative these days and actually tried to find that way, that maybe the partisanship in the world and america would simply dissapear because the NEW way would appeal to a broad cross section of people and would make them think wow i can support this because it does good things but doesnt turn me off with other aspects of it like socialism or capitalism did. (in that persons opinion) .

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