verklingen

so. . . there are components of our neurons called microtubules. aside from supporting the cell structurally, it is thought that they relay signals between one another and that the organization of these signals may determine the activity of the neuron itself. so if our brain acts like a switchboard of neurons, our neurons could act like a switchboard of microtubules.

under the assumption that the quantum process of a particle locking on to one single state among countless potentials is noncomputable, roger penrose postulates that microtubules may be the scene of the quantum event that brings about consciousness (if indeed one does).

to me, this makes a lot of sense. consciousness doesn't seem to be the result of a series of steps. if our thoughts are generated or even influenced in a quantum manner, it might help explain things like creative inspiration and intuition.

anyway, i thought it was a neat idea. and it's long, but this was a damn interesting read:

Quantum Consciousness | Mind & Brain | DISCOVER Magazine

__________________

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

The Rev

Consciousness is not a bodily function. Penrose is wrong.



The Rev

__________________

verklingen

if not, surely consciousness must interact with the body somehow. . .

__________________

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

SageTree

Well I blew up the print so I could read in on Word. It was 26 pages total. I made it through 18...... I just couldn't keep reading and it's too heady to skim....

More power to this guy... 'What are we going to do with a positive answer??', is basically what I'm left thinking. My apologizes if that was near the end

What can we understand once we know where it comes from in other words? If that is in fact where it comes from.

__________________

verklingen

well sage, i'm glad you asked. . .

my hope is that if we can understand how the brain works and how it permits functions we associate with consciousness, we may be able to create an artificial consciousness. like rev, i believe that consciousness does not originate in the body. i believe it is something that permeates all existence, so it may be that these microtubule structures are a manifestation of physical matter through which the presence of consciousness can be expressed. if what i believe is so, an artificial machine intelligence would would utilize our consciousness-saturated universe in exactly the way we do: picking everything that makes us "human" from the quantum ether. this idea fascinates me. it would be sort of like finding a long-lost relative

as a kid i always daydreamed of being able to talk with and figure things out with myself. such an artificial intelligence would be precisely that

__________________

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

SageTree

I agree consciousness is all about and perhaps synonymous with connection/perception, as a Zen moment where the hyper-awareness of many layers and feelings at once, culminate in a flash and equaling a perfect non-thinking action, showing our inherent ability of Knowing with out knowing.

I feel it's the way Nature 'knows' how to balance itself in the long term and short term all at once. Where does that Knowing come from and it is consciousness as well?

There certainly appears to be a Universal Knowing and the Tao/Dharma seem to exhibit these physical ideas of balance and action. When reading through that sort of stuff, I often find very logical and probable examples of cause and effect/effect and cause. I'll have to get into the Upanishads and find some heady verse about "Knowing the Knower". It doesn't really clear anything up, but it's got a nice flow.


Are you sure you want robots up to that stuff?

__________________

The Rev

In the same way it interracts with everything else, through awareness of it.



The Rev

__________________

SageTree

So is consciousness the physical principle here or is it acted upon by physics?

__________________

BibleGuy

Perhaps its the "As above, so below" principle. Consciousness/Quantum being above, manifestation reflected below (in matter) - and they respond to each other.

I like what you said here, Sage:

"I agree consciousness is all about and perhaps synonymous with connection/perception, as a Zen moment where the hyper-awareness of many layers and feelings at once, culminate in a flash and equaling a perfect non-thinking action, showing our inherent ability of Knowing with out knowing."

There is a Psalm that begins with "Be still, and know that I am God" (Psalms 46:10)

In the Hebrew this is three simple words: "Raphah yada 'elohiym" which in English is more literally Slacken... ascertain by seeing... God.

As yada is properly to ascertain by seeing, it is therefore not to ascertain by thinking, and that's why the Psalm begings with raphah (slacken). It means stop "thinking". This is your Zen moment, hyper-awareness, and God is the quantum ever-present and all-pervasive.

This amazing brain we've been given apparently has the ability to operate in that non-thinking, simply "knowing" way when we seek to "slacken". Maybe that's what microtubules are for, maybe there's a galaxy of more complex stuff inside each microtubule. Maybe... when we stop thinking the matter doesn't really matter.

The Rev

I am inclined to think that consciousness is an aspect of things, inseperable from that which is the object of awareness. We are used to thinking in terms of Subject-Action-Object "I am aware of a thing". But really, all that's really there is just that which fills awareness. The two are inseperable. Look carefully at what you are actually experiencing, being clear in your mind about the difference between what your senses tell you, and what your mind tells you in their interpretation, and you'll see what I mean. There is no actual, perceptible line between the thing perceived, and the perception of it, and there is nothing else besides those "two things" that is ever experienced at all.



The Rev

__________________

catastrophe

In order to arrive at the Theosophical meaning of being, let us assume for a moment that there is but one Matter, in spite of all its individual forms and its countless states and conditions. Assume that Matter is eternal, universal, permanent and immutable -- it only appears to change from gas to liquid, liquid to solid, and back again; it only appears to present any number of entitative abstractions called "forms." They are all made up of matter, come out of matter, exist in matter, and, when dissolved, all return to matter. All the time nothing but Matter!

Proceed, then, a step further: Can we imagine a time, spot, sphere, or focus, physical or metaphysical, where force is not present and in manifestation? No matter what forms or states or conditions of energy there may be, can we imagine energy other than infinite, unconditioned, eternal, changeless, and that the same state of relativities arises in and resolves itself again in the field of force or energy as we know it does in the field of matter?

Go, now, still further, and consider Law: Can we imagine a time, spot, sphere, or focus, physical or metaphysical, where Law does not reign? where a metaphysical apple falls up instead of down? or where you plant an apple and reap a thorn tree? Impossible! Easy enough to see in regard to what we call Law that it is the same as regards what we call Force or Energy, or what we call Matter: all are eternal, immutable, omnipresent, ever-active.

There is, moreover, something behind all of these -- behind Matter, behind Force, behind Law -- and that is Intelligence. Not only Intelligence, but operative Intelligence! We can manipulate matter, we can manipulate energy, we can manipulate law. By so doing, we learn that all forms of matter are just passing images in Matter; that all states and forms of force are but passing manifestations of Energy; that all phenomenal exhibitions of the activity and operation of law are but particularities of Law. Thus we can understand that all moving, encased intelligences are but foci of the One Intelligence.

The Mystery of Death

__________________
“Liƒë Is a Drëam,
From Which Wë First Must Wakë
Bëƒorë Wë May Drëam Again…”
RIP Gov

“To see a world in a grain of sand, And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand, And eternity in an hour.”

Ego Tripping

From the article...

Reminds me of that old proverb, I believe it is Hindu, which is about the Gods discussing and deciding where to hold the secret to our the human life. Some said on the mountaintops, others said in the clouds, but they all knew we would eventually reach those places. So finally one said "No, let's hide it within them, for they will never look there."

Pretty cool stuff, thank you!

__________________

hijabihippie

I recall a similar sentiment in the Charge of the Goddess--"If you do not find Her within, you shall never find Her without."

BibleGuy

I just looked that up and found:

"And thou who thinkest to seek for me, know thy seeking and yearning shall avail thee not, unless thou know this mystery: that if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, thou wilt never find it without thee."

Very very interesting... Also, Jesus, according to Luke:

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation (with the eyes, thus external): Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21, KJV)

Mescalito

verklingen

just stumbled on this, deepak chopra interviews dr. stuart hameroff:

On Faith Panelists Blog: Is consciousness connected to the fine structure of the universe? - Deepak Chopra

__________________

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Captain Cannabis

there is actually a fairly interesting debate on this topic happening now. the article you linked was from 1994, and while that doesn't invalidate anything it says (i didnt read it too carefully) the field of quantum anything has change so much in the past 16 years its worth considering other possibilities. all of his theories are based on goedels completeness axiom (the first part). in mathematics, people have been trying to prove this statement since 1931.

like i said i haven't read it too carefully, but for me the part about goedel is by far the most interesting component to his arguments. do you have any thoughts about this? i have found out that pretty much everything in all fields of quantum reduce to a mathematical debate of some sort.

__________________
fuck the monkeys

Roach

Free Tarot Card Readings


order from chaos ?

Captain Cannabis

numerology and pseudoscience would be the appropriate dismissing titles for such things in a modern scientific context

__________________
fuck the monkeys

espiex

I'm inclined to think it's both. The totality of consiousness is the universe experiencing itself, but individual consciousness arises as an emergent property of the complex fractal structures produced by the 'true' laws of physics.

It's a bodily function because our bodies are a function of the universe, to which all consciousness belongs and returns.

__________________
-=|=-