The Rev

I went to a bible study with my wife, and they talked about the book of Isaiah. In this book, there is a story where the King of Assyria says that Jehova is not the true god, and the King of Judea goes to God and says, "Look what he said about you? You should go and vindicate yourself, O Lord." etc etc. The Lord then goes forth and smites the King's invincible army of some 200,000 men. This is the short version, but basically what happened.

Now, I think a good analogy for this would be as follows: Two kindergarteners are on the playground, and one tells the other something insulting to the teacher. The other then runs to the teacher and tattles. The teacher then goes out to the playground, and beats the living crap out of the kid who made the insult. Aside from the fact that the distance between God and the King of Assyria is many orders of magnitude larger than the distance between the Teacher and the child, would you agree that the analogy is a good one?

I just wonder how followers of the bible reconcile such evil behavior on the part of their God. Honestly, I can't see how God would give a crap what anyone thought of Him, let alone get mad and exact revenge. I mean, how insecure is He anyway?

I don't know, maybe this rant is pointless. However, I was dismayed and felt like sharing.



The Rev

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Human-yo

Be careful Rev, or God might kill your army.

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Oceans 80

this is one of the reasons that i have a hard time believing in God...believers pick and choose what they WANT to believe in and twist the shit they dont want believed in around to fit their view...and every christian's view is so different and contradicting it just cant be true

its like a rumor that you hear and you hear 100 different versions..the more different variations of said rumor you hear the better the chances of it being just that...a rumor

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Anonymous4674

He heh. This is but the tip of the iceberg of problems with the bible.

Re Jesus dying on the cross, most say Jesus is ALL God and ALL man.

Impossible. If Jesus was all man, he was born into sin.

If Jesus was all God, then God died on the cross.

If Jesus was born of God, then it was impossible for him to sin, so what's the big deal about living a sinless life?

What would Xena do?

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"I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant..." (Alan Greenspan)

msicidron

the christian god is indeed hugely insecure

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SageTree

"The Last Temptation of Christ" is a really cool fictional account with Gospel History intermingled within the tale. I don't want to give much away, other than the premise of the book is that Jesus chose to go to the Cross and didn't merely fulfill a destiny without reason.

In regard to JC's ness-ness you might find it interesting to read about Arianism at the Council of Nicea and subsequent meetings where theology was agreed upon.

The Old Testament has some amazing stories that still ring in allegory today and social justice messages.It's true there is however many descriptions of Wrath. I consider who is bringing the message.

There are many books that aren't present in the Catholic or Protestant Cannon that are named as well as referenced in the NT mainly in the Epistles or Letters. Enoch is a book that comes to mind. They are dated and numerous enough to show their influence and validity in that day.

Not all but more than a few, in my experience, namely use the OT to reference a chosen people, as to why God should be feared, for the prophecy of the Messiah, who is Jesus and scriptural references as to why HE's the one. What was changed, tailored or left out? I don't know all of it for sure.

I also know many beautiful people in this life who work powerfully and equitably in their communities because of what they read in the Bible as well. They profess a love for others in positive ways and, in my biased opinion, doing the work that faith should bring.

Where does the variance come in? Do they in fact even believe ,remotely, the same thing? What does one see the other doesn't? These are all interesting in understanding what is really the message we are to take from the Bible. And were all these books even supposed to ever have been arranged to 'make sense'? And if so, who is defining 'sense'?

I feel that when I take an old testament or new testament book singularly it reads a lot differently than when I try to plug it into the rest of the Bible. I feel it's easier for me to take the sociological picture of who and what are being addressed, the where when why of what is to be done. Not always, but from a larger 'answer to problems' stand point, each book seems to become more clean when read 'alone' rather than part and parcel of the whole theology.



I'm not saying Yes or No about if it's all true, because I don't think that is the important thing to take from it. I only wish to share how I find meaning in the Bible's books and some that I reckon kin to it.

In the end the Bible is a document ,not an oral history as it was for hundreds of years before the originals were hand written , where it comes from it your calling, but it's something that has been put together throughout history and whoever guided it, history is bound to have effect on it.

So reading about the Synods has brought to light the who and what, was happening in the time of the meeting, knowing full well they are history in and of themselves, and the where when whys certain things were entertained while others deemed heresy. Also, what splits came from them and how that 'heretical' church still functions as a Christian institution.

There are so my 'types' of Christianity out there.
And surely I feel there is a larger essence between the lines of the Words.
In the end I feel it's a metaphor for connection to each other in All. "Loving God with all your heart", as is said, can lead to a place where you can talk to nearly everyone of Faith and you'll find intersection point irregardless of the details.

God isn't in a book in my understanding, It's in the action taken from whatever inspires you to affirm life here and now. Verbness- being Being. Metaphors speak to us individually. Hopefully the actions It leads us to are collective.

*steps off soap crate*


Namaste
SageTree

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BibleGuy

Interesting story that may not be meant to understand literally. Maybe. Here's why I say this:

"Assyria" in Hebrew is 'Ashshuwr (ash-shoor') (or iAshshur {ash-shoor'}).
1. Ashshur, the second son of Shem
2. also his descendants and the country occupied by them (i.e. Assyria), its region and its empire

'Ashshuwr is from 'ashar (aw-shar') (or rasher {aw-share'}).
1. to be straight (used in the widest sense, especially to be level, right, happy)
2. (figuratively) to go forward, be honest, proper

Here's why this seems important:

'ashar is also the root of 'asherah (ash-ay-raw') (or masheyrah {ash-ay-raw'}).
1. happy
2. Asherah (or Astarte) a Phoenician goddess
3. also an image of the same

Apparently, in Jewish legend, Asherah is the consort of YHVH. And there were Goddess-worshipers - those of Asherah, "Queen of Heaven" in the Old Testament.

These stories may metaphorically represent a balance struggle between male and female. Wisdom and Understanding, in Kabbalah. The crown sits on the pillar of balance.

I am not a kabbalist, but I've... noticed these things (and there are more) and I have interest and questions. Perhaps someone with knowledge in this area can address The Rev's comments and also tell me if these observation of mine make any sense or are explained by Kabbalah.

Anyone? Please share with us. Manny, if your reading, I'm interested in your thoughts as well.

Rev: Does this possible route of explanation interest you at all?

SageTree

I think the reverence of Mary is leftover Paganism to put a balance on the Godhead for new converts. Feminine balance, I certainly agree with, but what if God hadn't been stripped of that Goddess in the first place.

Bible Guy I'm looking at you..... YHVH was a feminine noun if I'm not mistaken, does that confer w/ you at all? And does that differ from YHWH? From my understanding when EL entered the picture from Babylon, then Male centricism began to reign in and the gender of God became more pronounced.

It's been a long time since I've read that and am interested to hear your comments, before I go looking up and painting an answer for you to question rather than simply listening to yours

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The Rev

I'm not criticizing christianity or any other biblical religion, per se. Where I have a problem is in mindless loyalty to the bible, as if it all must be taken literally and never questioned. I have met many religious people who, when confronted with the shortcomings of the bible, choose not to think about it. The old bumper sticker, "The bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" is a great summary of this kind of faith in non-thinking.

We have a large population of gay and lesbian people out there who are being persecuted to this day (in the marriage debate that's been in the headlines these last few years) as a direct result of biblical literalism. The problem is, if you take the bible as gospel (no pun intended), then you pretty much have to assume that God is not only violent and evil, but most likely insane as well. Who holds onto such a religion, and for what purpose? To vindicate one's own violence, evil and insanity?



The Rev

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SageTree

I literally take the metaphors to mean something 75.362% of the time .... I don't know if that puts me in the club or not


SageTree

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Being

Is she a Jehovah's Witness like my wife rev? sorry if im distracting from the thread, just curious

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stoneric

Seen the movie. It was great. My extremist sister told me I'm going to hell for watching blasphemy. Yeah, fun times with sis.

The Rev

She? My wife? No, she's just a general Christian person (raised catholic, but not a big fan of guilt). The church we were at was Harvest, which is one of the bigger churches in SoCal. The bible study probably had 500 people at it, so it was more like a sermon.

I kept thinking, as I listened, about how much I have always liked what Jesus had to say. His message was simple: "Be compassionate, forgiving, and empathetic. Don't perpetuate violence or hatred." Yet so many followers' (at least around here, and certainly those at Harvest) main focus is on how they're saved, how you're going to go to Hell if you don't find Jesus, etc. They're just basking in the "my dad can beat up your dad" superiority mentality of the supernatural side of the religion. It discourages me, because they are ignoring the best of what their religion has to offer in favor of more ego-reinforcing attributes that drive a wedge between themselves and the rest of humanity.



The Rev

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Ego Tripping

Considering how much death and destruction God created on Earth, you would think Jesus would have said "I'm just glad I didn't turn out like my asshole Dad, that guy was on a power trip."

The Old Testament has to be pure bs. How can a being of unconditional and pure love hurt one of it's creations? God is everything, so wouldn't killing his own creations be like killing himself? Furthermore, how do these people in the Bible "go to" God? Did he have a Villa at the edge of town or something?

"Crap, just when I pour a cognac and get relaxed, another army to smite..."

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verklingen

i really will never understand why christians identify with the the bible at all aside from what jesus had to say in it. it doesn't take a deep understanding of his age and region's theology to get what he was saying

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Waves

what i think is MOST crazy about Christianity is how they still adhere simultaneously to some of the ideology from the new testament and the old testament, even though they are at many points DIRECTLY conflicting. jesus love filled statements and parables vs. the stories of the old testament which clearly paint god as some kind of vengeful wrathful creature (see sodom n gomorra)

what i think it very cearly illustrates is the evolution of the concept of god itself. i think jesus knew on some level that the God that really exists, if he does exist as a consciousness or entity, is not at all like he/it was painted to be in the old testament. its really cool to see how he tried to change the teachings of his religion. and in many ways succeeded.

its crazy to think of what Catholicism and Christianity would look like today if jesus hadnt of come around. i dislike organized religion but j-c was on a whole different level than his religion.

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The Rev

Am I missing something? If Jesus had not existed, there would be no Catholicism or Christianity. There would be Judaism, and that's it, for the biblical religions. Maybe they would have come up with something else, built around some other messianic figure who came later, who knows.

Perhaps I, The Rev, would have been the messiah. I've always wanted to be hailed as a messiah. I think that would be pretty cool. I'd definitely get laid more.



The Rev

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Ego Tripping

HE IS! HE IS THE MESSIAH!!!!

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BibleGuy

Thanks for the invite, Sage. I do have a few things to say about this.

Pagan influence:
Interesting. "Paganism", a very broad term, does seem in some circles to focus on divine feminine; the Goddess or Lady. "Lord and Lady" are referred to in Wicca, for example, but there still seems to be a focus on Goddess which is often seen in Gaiea or Mother Earth, the womb from which all life springs and is nurtured. And in Catholicism, yes, Mary is revered and has even been given the epithet "Queen of Heaven" - Asherah's title in the Old Testament. I actually heard a priest teaching on a Catholic radio station, something I just happened to be listening to, recently that "Mary, the Blessed Mother, so loved the world that she gave her only begotten son." I dunno if his specific teaching is orthodox Catholicism or not, but that's what he was teaching.

YHVH:
I don't think that YHVH is either male or female. This name is the Tetragrammaton, usually translated as YHWH, YHVH, Yahweh or Jehovah. According to this chart, Yod-Heh-Vau-Heh is a Male-Female-Male-Female combination. According to Mark, Jesus said "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22:30, KJV). How is that? If they don't marry, they must be complete in themselves; androgynous. According to Genesis, Eve was taken from Adam's side/rib. This implies, to me, that Adam was originally male+female; androgynous; both. Made in the "image and likeness" of "God", then, implies that God is both. "God" in Hebrew is 'elohiym and it is plural. According to Revelation, Jesus said "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Revelation 22:16, KJV). That's two things, plural. I believe that the "root and offspring of David" is a masculine reference. And the "bright and morning star" is... are you ready for this?


Gasp! But that's Wiccan... Witchcraft.. Satanism... right? No, it's the Divine Feminine symbol, representing Venus, which several traditions make use of. If Revelation is accurate, JESUS identified himself in these terms, not me. The Greek-speaking audience of that day would have fully understood the meaning of orthrinos aster ("Morning Star") and it's symbol. Like the angels in heaven: male+female; both; androgynous; complete; balanced.


The pentagram was apparently the seal of the city of Jerusalem, of all places, circa 200BC as well. The Star of David even by itself implies joining of male/female.

What generates a reaction of fear in every Christian I personally know? The pentagram. One of Christ's own symbols, supposedly "pagan", thus "unchristian". Baloney. The Divine Feminine is part of God and Jesus apparently fully embraced it, reflected in his honoring of his mother and other women in his circle.

"Lord/Lady God/Goddess terminology no longer strikes fear into my heart. I also see Divine Masculine and Feminine as complete, balanced, and written in the nature of nature itself. Peace, fruit, offspring, generations... are all about the joining of the two.

The term "Pagan" by the way, means "country-dweller" as opposed to an educated "City-dweller" (expert). Jesus said we must become as a child (infant) in order to enter the Kingdom. "Pagan", in this light, having the simple, natural view of a country "hick" seems closer to ideal than "Expert" (Pharisee, Scribe, or perhaps Theologian).

"...but what if God hadn't been stripped of that Goddess in the first place?"

Great question, Sage. Maybe that's all in the mind of man. Maybe the ego-centric, divide-and-conquer, patriarcharchal or matriarchal domination syndrome is the definition of "the fall" and what we have now is a divided representation of the original wholeness: complete, balanced humanity. If we weren't divided, if "God" weren't divided in minds - male vs. female, this vs. that, Allah vs. Yahweh, etc., in the minds of all people, we'd actually have balance... Peace.

""Loving God with all your heart", as is said, can lead to a place where you can talk to nearly everyone of Faith and you'll find intersection point irregardless of the details."

I agree with you 100% Sage.

Just my thoughts. This is what happens when Christians veer off the "orthodox" path and decide to smoke moon lettuce.

Waves

im sure with all the religious ferver happening there would have been some other 'messiah' that came along and was put on a pedestal like jesus was. i dont think he was the only one to claim to be the christ that was prophesied in the torah/bible. the only question was would this other dude have gained as much popularity and authenticity in the eyes of the people and thus led to a branching off of religions like what happened with christianity and its many odd variations.

maybe we're actually lucky jc came along. if it hadnt been him it coulda been the ancient equivalent of GWB or something, some real meathead

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow