Humans using animals...

Mescalito · 03-14-2010, 12:19 AM

What are your thoughts on this?

I guess there are three main types of use we get..

1. To work for us... From monkeys picking coconuts for us to buffalo pulling a plow to introducing a new species to regulate another.

2. Growing for food... From American cowburgers to snake soup and fried cat at the Chinese market.

3. For entertainment purposes... from pet dogs and cats to the circus elephants and tigers.

M

The Rev · 03-16-2010, 12:50 PM

The real difficulty is, you can't ask the animal. You can make educated guesses, such as "no, animals would probably prefer to continue living, rather than get eaten" or "well cared for pets don't seem to mind being well cared for" but that's the best you can do. Since animals can't enter into agreements, the concept of morality goes out the window (morality being a set of behavior limitations that a given group of humans generally agree on). So you have to base your "right or wrong?" assessments on something else, like compassion, or utility.

Compassion is my compass where animals are concerned, and therefore I don't eat them and I oppose causing them to suffer. However, keeping a dog as a pet doesn't strike me as wrong, so long as you care for him and don't cause him to suffer.

The Rev

Mescalito · 03-17-2010, 04:24 AM

Yeh I agree.

So keeping a pet would be akin to keeping a child.

Do you think in the future animals will enter into agreements? Could the rules be changed.. as to what constitutes an agreement?

I think someone sometime or another wanted to classify dolphines as non human-humans.

The Rev · 03-17-2010, 07:23 AM

I doubt animals could ever enter into agreements. For an agreement to work, both parties must understand that an agreement has been made; that is, a trade, where one party agrees to act or not act in a certain way in exchange for the other party agreeing to act or not act in a certain way (I won't hit you if you don't hit me). I don't see how animals could do this, with their lack of intellectual capacity.

The Rev

**~~stateofkane~~** · 03-17-2010, 10:18 AM

#1 is fading, at least where technology has been up to date. As long as there is no abuse, then whatever. #2, same thing, I eat meat, but of course they are abused, but it's natural for humans to eat meat. I'm not about to lose weight, yo, so whatever. I hate zoos, but having pets make great companions. It's good for both humans and the pet.

The thought of animal abuse sickens me more than the thought of most humans getting tortured. I value the life of animals higher than a majority of human beings.

Sir-Ex · 03-17-2010, 11:37 AM

life is life and it all needs to be treated with respect.

shakeNbake06 · 03-18-2010, 04:55 PM

What about animals using humans??

The Rev · 03-18-2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir-Ex

life is life and it all needs to be treated with respect.

I agree, and it's why I argue for compassion rather than any concept of rights when it comes to animals.

The Rev

The Rev · 03-18-2010, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakeNbake06

What about animals using humans??

That would be called, "Dinner."

The Rev

Mescalito · 03-18-2010, 07:08 PM

Do you think the definition of 'using' something/one auto implies that the relationship is non-reciprocal? Also without the ability to communicate on such a level to form agreements then the idea of reciprocity is wholly determined by humans. And... time for work!

Sir-Ex · 03-18-2010, 07:18 PM

There are ways to determine 'agreement' beyond verbally agreeing. There are plenty of examples of animals that 'use' each other in a symbiotic manner, and you can see that they agree upon it simply because at no stage of their interaction does one of the animals resist the other.

If an animal resists what you're doing, it means he doesn't agree.

Parallax · 03-18-2010, 09:09 PM

a wolf doesn't ask a rabbit if its cool that it eats it. everything is fair game as long as you don't fuck up the balance by taking so much that there's none left to take later on. however nature will always find a balance: too many wolves, and all the rabbits will run away or die, and then the wolves die because there is no food. and the rabbits will come back again and breed. but too many rabbits will attract more wolves and so on.

Sir-Ex · 03-18-2010, 09:10 PM

so can i run down the street chopping people up cuz there's so many people and that's cool?

Parallax · 03-18-2010, 09:15 PM

this is gonna blow your mind: you can do anything you want, but so can everyone else. the balance will always be there, but its not static its more like a sine wave with fluctuations

Sir-Ex · 03-18-2010, 10:15 PM

ok so you've got to that point.. soon maybe you'll see that in the human mind there is a need to extrapolate our ideas and methods using logic, reasoning, and imagination. Being aware that we are capable of making any choice we want is just one part of developing your mind. Don't stop there, there's more to it.

And it's not really like a sine wave with fluctuations. It's more like a tapestry of wavelengths colliding with each other, creating infinitely more complex patterns of reality.
.. as far as I can tell, so far.

Mescalito · 03-18-2010, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir-Ex

There are ways to determine 'agreement' beyond verbally agreeing. There are plenty of examples of animals that 'use' each other in a symbiotic manner, and you can see that they agree upon it simply because at no stage of their interaction does one of the animals resist the other.

If an animal resists what you're doing, it means he doesn't agree.

The Predator Prey Cycle

M

**AlteredStateGrl** · 03-19-2010, 08:10 AM

animals were never meant to entertain humans. especially, especially, certainly wild, undomesticated animals. ever. they should never be forced to. i hate it, find maddening and sad.

Geeno · 03-19-2010, 08:30 AM

who determines the meaning of an animal?

That's pretty fucking entertaining!!!! I think I lol'ed at that for a few months straight

Parallax · 03-19-2010, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlteredStateGrl

animals were never meant to entertain humans. especially, especially, certainly wild, undomesticated animals. ever. they should never be forced to. i hate it, find maddening and sad.

what authority meant or never meant animals to be used as anything?

al-Mu'akhkhir · 03-20-2010, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlteredStateGrl

animals were never meant to entertain humans. especially, especially, certainly wild, undomesticated animals. ever. they should never be forced to. i hate it, find maddening and sad.

I'm curious as to how you think we ended up with domesticated animals in the first place...

they were all wild at one point... furthermore by your logic it would seem that keeping a pet would be objectionable... are you maddened and saddened by the fact that you yourself keep animals? Pardon me if I am misunderstanding your point... but what purpose exactly do pets serve if not to entertain or provide company to their masters? Surely you don't think your cat is healthier, or has a longer life expectancy than a feral cat?

How would you feel if animals took you out of your natural habitat, "broke" you (housebreaking), kept you on a steady diet of weird dry crunchettes and the occasional cylindrical blob of processed meat paste? How would you feel if you had to shit in a box while everyone watched you? Kept on a leash?

Actually apparently some people like the leashes, but I digress...

food for though, oui?

03-14-2010, 12:19 AM	#1 (permalink)
Mescalito Space Cadet Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,146 Thanks: 638 Thanked 679 Times in 347 Posts	Humans using animals... What are your thoughts on this? I guess there are three main types of use we get.. 1. To work for us... From monkeys picking coconuts for us to buffalo pulling a plow to introducing a new species to regulate another. 2. Growing for food... From American cowburgers to snake soup and fried cat at the Chinese market. 3. For entertainment purposes... from pet dogs and cats to the circus elephants and tigers. M

03-16-2010, 12:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
The Rev Clear Light Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,672 Thanks: 4,716 Thanked 5,056 Times in 2,707 Posts	The real difficulty is, you can't ask the animal. You can make educated guesses, such as "no, animals would probably prefer to continue living, rather than get eaten" or "well cared for pets don't seem to mind being well cared for" but that's the best you can do. Since animals can't enter into agreements, the concept of morality goes out the window (morality being a set of behavior limitations that a given group of humans generally agree on). So you have to base your "right or wrong?" assessments on something else, like compassion, or utility. Compassion is my compass where animals are concerned, and therefore I don't eat them and I oppose causing them to suffer. However, keeping a dog as a pet doesn't strike me as wrong, so long as you care for him and don't cause him to suffer. The Rev __________________ "You're seriously flying close to the fag-sun, icarus." -Flamingnun

03-17-2010, 07:23 AM	#4 (permalink)
The Rev Clear Light Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,672 Thanks: 4,716 Thanked 5,056 Times in 2,707 Posts	I doubt animals could ever enter into agreements. For an agreement to work, both parties must understand that an agreement has been made; that is, a trade, where one party agrees to act or not act in a certain way in exchange for the other party agreeing to act or not act in a certain way (I won't hit you if you don't hit me). I don't see how animals could do this, with their lack of intellectual capacity. The Rev __________________ "You're seriously flying close to the fag-sun, icarus." -Flamingnun

03-17-2010, 11:37 AM	#6 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 10,465 Thanks: 1,411 Thanked 3,130 Times in 1,873 Posts	life is life and it all needs to be treated with respect. __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

03-18-2010, 07:18 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 10,465 Thanks: 1,411 Thanked 3,130 Times in 1,873 Posts	There are ways to determine 'agreement' beyond verbally agreeing. There are plenty of examples of animals that 'use' each other in a symbiotic manner, and you can see that they agree upon it simply because at no stage of their interaction does one of the animals resist the other. If an animal resists what you're doing, it means he doesn't agree. __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

03-17-2010, 04:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
Mescalito Space Cadet Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,146 Thanks: 638 Thanked 679 Times in 347 Posts	Yeh I agree. So keeping a pet would be akin to keeping a child. Do you think in the future animals will enter into agreements? Could the rules be changed.. as to what constitutes an agreement? I think someone sometime or another wanted to classify dolphines as non human-humans.

03-17-2010, 10:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
~~stateofkane~~ Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 560 Thanks: 20 Thanked 92 Times in 82 Posts	#1 is fading, at least where technology has been up to date. As long as there is no abuse, then whatever. #2, same thing, I eat meat, but of course they are abused, but it's natural for humans to eat meat. I'm not about to lose weight, yo, so whatever. I hate zoos, but having pets make great companions. It's good for both humans and the pet. The thought of animal abuse sickens me more than the thought of most humans getting tortured. I value the life of animals higher than a majority of human beings.

03-18-2010, 04:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
shakeNbake06 Old School Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 368 Thanks: 21 Thanked 56 Times in 29 Posts	What about animals using humans??

03-18-2010, 07:08 PM	#10 (permalink)
Mescalito Space Cadet Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,146 Thanks: 638 Thanked 679 Times in 347 Posts	Do you think the definition of 'using' something/one auto implies that the relationship is non-reciprocal? Also without the ability to communicate on such a level to form agreements then the idea of reciprocity is wholly determined by humans. And... time for work!

03-18-2010, 09:09 PM	#12 (permalink)
Parallax Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,630 Thanks: 131 Thanked 497 Times in 269 Posts	a wolf doesn't ask a rabbit if its cool that it eats it. everything is fair game as long as you don't fuck up the balance by taking so much that there's none left to take later on. however nature will always find a balance: too many wolves, and all the rabbits will run away or die, and then the wolves die because there is no food. and the rabbits will come back again and breed. but too many rabbits will attract more wolves and so on. __________________ FUCK THE ROBOTS!!! NUKE THE WHALES!!! Last edited by Parallax; 03-18-2010 at 09:12 PM.

03-18-2010, 09:10 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 10,465 Thanks: 1,411 Thanked 3,130 Times in 1,873 Posts	so can i run down the street chopping people up cuz there's so many people and that's cool? __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

03-18-2010, 09:15 PM	#14 (permalink)
Parallax Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,630 Thanks: 131 Thanked 497 Times in 269 Posts	this is gonna blow your mind: you can do anything you want, but so can everyone else. the balance will always be there, but its not static its more like a sine wave with fluctuations __________________ FUCK THE ROBOTS!!! NUKE THE WHALES!!!

03-18-2010, 10:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
Sir-Ex Learner Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 10,465 Thanks: 1,411 Thanked 3,130 Times in 1,873 Posts	ok so you've got to that point.. soon maybe you'll see that in the human mind there is a need to extrapolate our ideas and methods using logic, reasoning, and imagination. Being aware that we are capable of making any choice we want is just one part of developing your mind. Don't stop there, there's more to it. And it's not really like a sine wave with fluctuations. It's more like a tapestry of wavelengths colliding with each other, creating infinitely more complex patterns of reality. .. as far as I can tell, so far. __________________ Smile Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

03-19-2010, 08:10 AM	#17 (permalink)
AlteredStateGrl (òÓ,)_\,,/ Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Where Trouble Melts Like Lemon Drops High Above the Chimney Tops... Posts: 10,445 Thanks: 2,135 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,089 Posts	animals were never meant to entertain humans. especially, especially, certainly wild, undomesticated animals. ever. they should never be forced to. i hate it, find maddening and sad. __________________ The sweetest kittens have the sharpest claws.

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