JcP

So I finally got around to watching the new episode of Flashforward on my DVR last night.

anyway, at one point a character says "it's not about fate vs. free will. It's about fate AND free will."

I immediately thought of my HT friends...because to me, that's gobbledygook. Fate implies that what will be will be because what we choose in the moment is planned (because of what has led us to that position). Free Will implies that what will be is up in the air because we are free to choose anything in the moment.

I reject the concept of free will completely, as everything I choose is a direct result of previous choices, all the way back to something OUT of my control (my birth). I believe in the illusion of free will...that we THINK we have choice, but I don't think we truly do.

But anyway, anyone have any theories wtf that statement means? How can one be fated but also free? If you're free to choose, then your fate is not fate as it can be changed. But if you're fated to choose what you choose, then your free will is not free will as it's already decided.

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Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

Kompressor

Think of a chain reaction.

It can be initiated by a random event [free will], but then due to the laws of nature must follow a sequence of events to a conclusion [fate].


Or like a logic gate.

Where one decision has multiple paths to follow, you must make a choice to lead to the next series of choices. So you follow one path [fate] but had many opportunities for different paths [free will]

I dunno...

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Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson

JcP

right, but the sequence of events began at birth. And even that was a product of the fate of my parents and where my little sperm was fated to be in my daddy's balls.

So while EVERYTHING might have started with free will, without the vaccuum of past choices, how is anything ever truly free? Aren't you just choosing what you would choose in a situation no matter what you do?

And the logic gate I don't get either. At the moment of choice, WHY do you choose what you choose?

I think "why" is my hangup with fate/free will. To me, free will implies that why you choose something can somehow transcend "yourself." As in, I can choose, regardless of how I feel, what I want, or anything else.

But to me, it's a self-defeating principle. Because thinking you can choose is a product of your exposure to the concepts of fate and free will.

For instance, you're facing a path with two forks in the road. You could go left, right, the way you came, you could sit down, you could do a handstand, you could do thousands of things.

The illusion is that you have free will. That what you're going to do is free. But, to me, WHY you choose what you choose is fate. You do that handstand because you think of doing it. And you think of doing it because you like handstands. And you like handstands because you got praise for doing it in kindergarden. And you like praise because when you were born you associated that tone of voice with your mother. And you were born because your PARENTS had sex on march 13th, 1982 at 12:01am. And they had...etc etc etc.

Every decision, while seeming "free" is just a reaction. So I agree with your "chain reaction" scenario, but whether or not a single act of free will billions of years ago started it, I see zero room for free will to live side by side with fate in the present.

I'm really looking for answers here...hopefully one that I can't argue with.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

The Rev

The fate v. free will argument is a tired one, and will not be decided here. You can fly up your own ass for a thousand years running that one back and forth, and get no where. Just check out the Physics Forums. They've been duking it out for years.

However, one thing does stand out to me in favor of free will. And that is, without free will, there would be no need for conscious awareness, yet conscious awareness not only exists, it is an integral part of existence itself (per quantum mechanics). I mean, why be aware if it doesn't matter? It would be like giving a clock self-awareness. It would not improve the function of the clock, just create a captive and passive audience to events already decided.



The Rev

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