SageTree

This is a little different.....

From "Where IS God located?" to "The God is Dead Theology".....Rev John Shelby Spong

If you listen to Part 1 and Part 6 maybe you'll want to tune in for the expounding.

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DougFunny

Soaking Up Lies

SageTree

Cool link Doug... I don't know a great deal about the man although I've been told to look into him from people in many practices of Christianity. So that is something to chew on and interesting to see a dialog amongst believers.

In kind
SageTree

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DougFunny

What’s Wrong With Bishop Spong?

This breaks it down better without the name calling and whatnot and gives tons of footnotes.

"This redefinition of God is a form of panentheism: the view that God is in the world as a soul is in the body. But ‘the God within’ is no God at all. It is merely another name for one’s own desires and lusts. This is probably the reason that such views are appealing to the unregenerate man: such a ‘god’ makes no ethical demands, and sends no-one into final judgement. However, it is also impossible to derive Spong’s ethics from such a view. If God is within all people, then he is in fundamentalists and all the other people Spong despises. Spong provides no criterion to decide which ‘God within’ is the right one."

BibleGuy

Well... the guy does make one think. I would rather consider points that I resonate with than dismiss his view as another -ism.

He said something in part 6 that spoke to me:

"The call of the Christ is to empower the incomplete to become whole."

Why is that meaningful to me?

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things (pas: the whole). (1 John 2:20, KJV)

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things (pas: the whole), and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him (or "it"). (1 John 2:27, KJV)

Peace* I leave with you, my peace* I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (John 14:27, KJV)

* "Peace" is rooted in a word meaning "to join" and is also translated "to set at one again". In other words, peace is unity. And it seems that Spong is part of a Unity movement. I personally agree with his description of Jesus as being fully human, as I desire to become, and that is Unity with The Whole.

My quick two cents.

Peace.

SageTree

and

From: Statement of Doctrine
Seems contradictory, although in some regard the Trinity is often misunderstood as a pantheon by those unfamiliar. Which is which?

Is that site for articles or letters or what as there are also articles about the KJV and Chapter of the Bible not being exact, or didn't match earlier manuscripts, and one particularly caught my eye.

I would appreciate if you could break that down for me. I have my feelings and experiences of how the Trinity functions as a Unit. But perhaps you'd like to add your version and understanding of what is above.

And something seemingly opposite from the second link you gave me was this section which picks on Spong for his 'theories' on Biblical errancy, while the info above asserts the fact that there is error.

I would also like to hear your thoughts of the difference of the two links ideas which agree on error, but confuse me as you used them as example. One site you agree with says Biblical Errors exist, while talking down about Spong's beliefs, while the other link simply asserts Spong is wrong, although Spong and the First link have congruent thought on error.

If there are errors what are they and which one of these people, links, ideas are 'correct'?

I get a feeling that you feel there is a best or most orthodox practice, correct me if I'm wrong, so I'm hoping you can pull this all together.

One thing I saw on the 'Statement of Faith', near the bottom was:
It's also confusing why the Jews would have to apologize for something they did to fulfill the mission of Jesus, the Messiah. Even Jesus, who knew Judas would betray him wasn't angry or bitter about it. Judas was part of The Plan.

So how does that play out?

In all of this I'm not saying I don't/won't read the Bible. But I do feel that there is a level of stilling the heart and mind to read more deeply into what is in the It. We have the Bible because, in my understanding, God doesn't want us to suffer or experience the bad. Rather here is the mind of God in word to help give a guide for right living and inspirtation to continue onward.

The Spong talk of consciousness makes sense to me in the way that I am god-conscious, I am living in a knowing awareness of being in the Presence, to touch the earth and be present in the moment but not of the moment, shedding ego and finding a true self, the breath of God that is in us. Some could call that mysticism, but frankly, I don't see why it in unto itself is a bad thing. Even if God is unknowable, I feel that it's a worth while practice to strive for better knowing the mind of God through meditation, prayer and study. Just because we can't BE Jesus doesn't mean we can't emulate in thought word and deed to the best we can. It's that was sin and repentance is about? Acknowledging our faults and working our hardest to not sin in that way again, that would be perfecting of what we can, in my mind.

I'll stop for now and maybe you can lay some thoughts down for me. I'm not asking to be a bother, I'm sincerely curious and am interested in how you personally fit this together intellectually as well as what are your experiences with your own practice concerning these issues.

Thanks for the time, thought, effort and caring for sharing.

In kindness,
SageTree

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BibleGuy

A few comments:

1 - The article title "What’s Wrong With Bishop Spong?" immediately makes me want to ignore the author. This is a common political approach that I see on TV every day "Don't vote for John Doe because here's everything that's wrong with him..." I don't want to know what's wrong with John Doe, but why I should listen to you (candidate, preacher, whomever). The 'other guy' will stand or fall on his own.

2 - "This redefinition of God is a form of panentheism: the view that God is in the world as a soul is in the body. But ‘the God within’ is no God at all. It is merely another name for one’s own desires and lusts."

Wait a sec... What about

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within (entos: inside) you." (Luke 17:21, KJV)

3 - Trinity. This doctrine wasn't even formulated until the 4th century BC. "in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" is one basis for this take, but there is a misunderstanding. "Name" is onoma in Greek and it means character and authority as well as our modern English understanding of "Name".

• God is Light (1John 1:5)
• Jesus is the express image of God (Hebrews 1:3)
  ...and therefore said "...I am the light of the world." (John 9:5)
• The "Holy Spirit" is the Teacher (John 14:26), thus the illuminator

The "Name", that is, character of the three distinctions is both Light and Unity. This is the basis for statements like "I have seen The Light" and "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30, KJV)

Personally, I don't believe in a Trinity, but a Unity. Although I do recognize a triune expression which we even see in ourselves (made in the image and likeness) as body, mind and spirit - 3 aspects, yet we are each one person.

I'm not defending Mr. Spong. I am trying to view everything clearly in the Light.

Thoughts?

SageTree

I personally like how you explained the Trinity BG. Expression is how'd I'd say I relate to it as well and you captured that understanding beautifully in the Light verses.

I posted these videos mainly because they ARE radical but also because I hear some of my own expressions in his words, but like many thing I'm not giving this man permission to use my rubber stamp

Many Blessings BibleGuy
SageTree

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Lloydy

The future of christianity is ROBOT JESUS

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Keep the red flag flying high

SageTree

So you enjoyed watching these videos?


.........

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SageTree

Wednesday at Church there were some books on the table. I asked the office lady whose they were. She said they are Lucy's, The Reverend, and that she'd lent them out to a person at the Church...

One was 'Living Buddha Living Christ' a favourite of mine by Thich Nhat Hahn...

BUT the other one surprised me more,

"Why Christianity must change or die" by John Shelby Spong

Some people call this man an atheist still wearing robes...
But I don't see it that way and find this ideas really interesting...

So just bumping this one up since I mentioned it in another thread.

Paul Tillich, who is mentioned in the section about Non-theism in Christianity in a wiki article about 'non-theistic religions' and 'non-theist Friends' are good reads for different views of how people practice Christianity 'outside' the box, which is quite refreshing.

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