SageTree

YaHookans,

Tonight I was having a talk with a man from Germany, a friend of a friend, totally talking in good nature. He said that he'd seen this flag on some of this in a friend or two's room or in his country.

It basically came up around the conversation about where I was born and raised, although the American Civil War question sort of popped out of no where, other than talking about how long my family had lived in Penn. and also my home towns proximity to 'the South'.

He didn't know which side was which or what they stood for and that is basically what his knowledge of the event came down to.

I myself didn't know the exact history and symbolism.

So I took the question as a chance to clear up some questions about the war, as I understood it growing up in a family that studied it's history and characters.

However, I left it open to that fact that there are many other ways to see this Flag, from the Southern-centric vantage..... all the way to ambiguous rebel.....or who knows what....? You tell me.


I want to open the question to you. What is this sybombol to you?



I am trying this in Higher Thoughts for a while and am hoping people can feel like they can be open and honest, with out fear of retribution, and am at saying I'm putting it out there for complete openness, for Mod sake adding a disclaimer, *this isn't a trap


In honest curiosity,
SageTree

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Xil

i think for a lot of people its about giving a big old fuck you to southern shame and political correctness.

for even more people its a symbol of blatant racism.


also i believe this is only one of several confederate flags, could be wrong though.

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The Rev

Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were several confederate flags, and the one that Sage posted above wasn't one of them. In fact, this flag was a battle flag only, much like the rising sun flag of japan during WWII.



To me, the Confederate flag represents rebellion against assimilation by a conquering power, or culture. I know it means other things to other people, but that's how I see it. I personally believe the South had as much right to secede from the Union as the Colonies had in declaring independence from Britain. The country was founded on giving the finger to authority, and even though in the more recent case, the finger authority gave back was bigger, that unique American spirit of "kiss my ass" has not been extinguished.



The Rev

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OldMan&TheWeed

I'm a Yankee, who from the age a five, was raised in the South by Yankee parents. The Confederate battle flag was on our state flag at the time. The "Southern pride" that people often expressed by displaying the Stars and Bars was usually seasoned with a heavy dose of overt racism. Part of giving "finger to authority" was talking about "niggers". It made me uncomfortable as a child. I knew it was wrong.

Rev,
You once paraphrase something you had read about the causes of the civil war. It had to do with the the North representing newer ideas. . . I don't remember. Do you? What was the book?

__________________
Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

The Rev

I think there was something about it in Alvin Toffler's "Powershift". I know he talks about stages of civilization being First, Second, and Third Wave, and that The North (Industrial) represented the Second Wave while The South (Agrarian) represented the First Wave. In First Wave societies, slavery is economical, but in Second Wave societies, it no longer is, so it was easier for the North to take an abolitionist view without harm to themselves than it would have been for the South to. You will find that, historically, slavery seems to, after thousands of years, suddenly become appalling right around the shift to an industrial economy. Never underestimate the power of denial.

I also believe that a big cause for the lingering racism in the South is the Civil War, and what it meant to the Southern States. The North waged what Von Clauswitz would call "Total War" against the south (in true Second Wave fashion), while the South engaged in a more Napoleonic style of warfare (far more gentlemanly), and that was largely the reason they lost. Lee was far more intelligent and skilled a general than Grant (or any of the other half dozen or so Lincoln appointed), but Grant had technology on his side (the railroad, the telegraph, etc.) which gave him a logistical advantage. You combine that with a tendency to burn towns and crops and generally terrorize the civilian population, and you have a potent recipe for "poor losers" ready to brew. Most people have a hard time handling getting their ass kicked, but then you fuck the guy's woman and piss on him after, and he's likely to hate you, and everything you stand for (which in this case was equality for blacks). Hence the overt racism.

There was slavery throughout the Americas, yet only the U.S. had to resort to war to end it, and only the U.S. has anything remotely resembling the racism you see toward blacks today (the Klan, for example). For the North, the Civil War is long over, but for the losers, the resentment can linger far longer.



The Rev

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Purd Hupley

I've always thought that Lee was suffering from depression over the breakup of the Union and was not always in his right mind when strategizing the war. I have no documentation beyond the fact that world's foremost general at the time fucked up a lot, maybe to the point of unconciously sandbagging his army. Totally a theory.

As to slavery, while it was the moral component that brought the populous to the parade, the bigger issue was States Rights. I agree with Rev that the South was well within their right to succeed, Founding Documents- wise. And had they chosen not to attack Fort Sumpter, the world may well be a different place. It's not only true that logistically and industrially the North had the advantage. They also had the advantage that the Confederacy was structured more as the the United States was originally structured. Several indepenent nation/ states that, while existing in harmony and cooperation, were still independent from each other. A little too loose a confederation when you're facing a war of aggression.

The South did have the tacit support of England and France on their side. On their side for how long is anyone's guess. It was well within the interests of France and England to keep the Union fractured.

Rev is right that this country was born from a giving the finger attitude, and I think we need to remember that we're talking about less than three generations after the Revolution. It wasn't just something in the history books. For people in that time, it wasn't a concept. It was very real.

Lincoln, like King George and Cornwallis in the Revolution, wanted a gentle peace. He knew that the Union was a family. At the end of the day Lincoln was the best friend the South had. His death, while a tragedy of Biblical proportions, had the potential to heal the country more than anything else could have. People in the South who before April 9, 1865 saw Lincoln as no better than the Devil himself, came together in grief over his martyrdom. Unfortunately, the heavy handedness of the victorious Union went a long way to evaporate that good will of the Southern people.

But here's the funny thing about our country. Old Man talked about his folks flying the Confederate Battle Flag outside the house and his state having it as part of their flag (MIssissippi and/ or Georgia, right?). Policemen in the South wear the flag on one shoulder and the American flag on the other. It's on bumper stickers. The Confederacy is
a defeated nation. Hell, the Swastika is illegal in Germany. But here the flag of a defeated nation can be displayed openly. Quite incredible if you really think about it.

For me, and I'm being totally serious about this, the flag represents Lynyrd Skynyrd. Or Molly Hatchet, or the Allman's, or Jackyl, or any number of Southern Rock bands.

Sorry for the rant, but when do you get to talk about the Civil War in daily conversation?

OldMan&TheWeed

Alvin Toffler's "Powershift" thanks.

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Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

Roach

The rebel flag means nothing to me. "American" flag for that matter means nothing to me. Interesting designs, for maybe a second.

thanks for pointing out hurdy, that the civil war was started over states rights, not slavery.

many many people have it wrong.

not just Americans.

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לזיין את הקופים

The Rev

To say that slavery was not the main issue is a stretch. It was Lincoln's victory in the presidential election of 1860 that set off the secession of the first Southern States. Lincoln was a member of a new party, the Republican Party, and the main issue in their platform was slavery. If you've read "Uncle Tom's Cabin" or other contemporary books, you know that slavery was THE political issue of the day, and for the North, abolition was the rally cry around which the Federal gov't got popular support for the war.

That being said, I agree that for the South, it was about state's rights, at least superficially. In truth, it was about what all wars are about: an outside force seeking some end that will cause economic harm in some meaninful way. Abolitionism posed a serious threat to the economy, and therefore the individual welfare of every person living in the South. There was also a fear regarding PERSONAL welfare, as most of the South was constantly afraid of a slave uprising (and abolitionist sentiments in the North could stimulate that), and the resulting harm that might come to white Southerners should one occur.

Utlimately, it was the ideals of the North (and really, the ideals of most of the country, I think), vs. the economic necessities of the South. And both sides knew this, as is evidenced in how they each fought their wars. The North started with a blockade, preventing cotton exports to Europe, and ended with destroying everything in their path, killing the Southern economy from within. The South simply fought a war of defense, with only two battles in Union territory, if I remember correctly. They also waged a public opinion campaign, generating many of the racist perspectives that persist today in institutions such as the Klan.

I wish we had given peace a chance on this one, given the peaceful resolutions to slavery throughout the rest of the Americas, but I guess we'll never know. My understanding was that slavery was losing popularity even in the South in the decades leading up to the Civil War. The polarizing effect of the war kept the South chauvinistic about slavery, and black inferiority, even years after the war. Things would probably be far different today if we had just let the institution die a natural death, IMO.



The Rev

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OldMan&TheWeed

If the Civil War never happened the South would have seceded and we would have two countries: the USA and the CSA. I think the big impacts on world history and American history would be on:

WWI
WWII
The Cold War
The Civil Rights Movement

All of the wars the US participated in would have experienced a weakening on the side of the Allies and subsequent strength for the Axis powers, as well as for the USSR.

As for the Civil Rights Movement, well there would probably be some kind of insurgency/terrorism going on in the South, I suppose as blacks try to achieve through the bullet what they could not get through the ballot. Mechanized southern agriculture would have made blacks no longer necessary for the Southern economy. The South may have resorted to a massive deportation of blacks to Africa. It is equally possible that such a plan would succeed or fail, as the UN might have either not existed or had a delayed existence due to US military weakness due to the loss of 1/4 of its population and 1/3 of its lands.

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Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

Roach

whom said that. ?

slavery "became" the main issue.

Like democracy "became" the main issue in Iraq and Afghanistan, the initial "cause" was quite different.

American history classes often omit certain facts.


States' Rights "Powers Reserved To The States"
The first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution, known collectively as the Bill of Rights, were adopted as a single unit two years after ratification of the Constitution. Dissatisfaction with guarantees of freedom listed in the Constitution led the founding fathers to enumerate personal rights as well as limitations on the federal government in these first 10 amendments. The Magna Carta, the English bill of rights, Virginia's 1776 Declaration of Rights, and the colonial struggle against tyranny provided inspiration and direction for the Bill of Rights.

The 10th Amendment states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." This amendment was the basis of the doctrine of states' rights that became the ante-bellum rallying cry of the Southern states, which sought to restrict the ever-growing powers of the federal government. The principle of states' rights and state sovereignty eventually led the Southern states to secede from the central government that they believed had failed to honor the covenant that had originally bound the states together.

The nullification crisis of the 1830s was a dispute over Northern-inspired tariffs that benefited Northern interests and were detrimental to Southern interests. The legal basis for the Southern call for nullification of the tariff laws was firmly rooted in states'-rights principles. Northern proposals to abolish or restrict slavery- an institution firmly protected by the Constitution- escalated the regional differences in the country and rallied the Southern states firmly behind the doctrine of states' rights and the sovereignty of the individual states. Southerners viewed the Constitution as a contractual agreement that was invalidated because its conditions had been breached. The Confederacy that was subsequently formed by the seceded states was patterned on the doctrine of states' rights. That doctrine, ironically, played a large role in the destruction of the country that it had caused to be created.

Fascinating Fact: Wartime need for a centralized government that could impose conscription, as well as other measures necessary to win its freedom, conflicted sharply with states'-rights doctrine.


Constitution on Slavery "Clearly Sanctioned"
Black African slavery had existed in the North American English colonies for 168 years before the U.S. Constitution was drafted in 1787. It had existed all across colonial America, but by 1804 most Northern states, finding that slavery was not profitable for them, had effectively abolished the institution. In the South, however, especially after the 1793 invention of the cotton gin, the institution grew, becoming an inextricable part of the economy and way of life.

Whether slavery was to be permitted and continued under the new Constitution was a matter of conflict between the North and South, with several Southern states refusing to join the Union if slavery were disallowed. Thus, in spite of a warning from Virginian George Mason that slaves "bring the judgment of Heaven on a country," the continuance of slavery was clearly sanctioned in the U.S. Constitution, although the words slave and slavery are not found anywhere in the document. Section 2 of Article I states that apart from free persons "all other persons," meaning slaves, are each to be counted as three-fifths of a white person for the purpose of apportioning congressional representatives on the basis of population. Section 9 of Article I states that the importation of "such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit," meaning slaves, would be permitted until 1808. And Section 2 of Article IV directs that persons "held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another," meaning fugitive slaves, were to be returned to their owners.

The Bill of Rights, adopted in 1791, says nothing about slavery. But the Fifth Amendment guaranteed that no person could "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." Slaves were property, and slaveholders had an absolute right to take their property with them, even into free states or territories.

Fascinating Fact: The rhetoric in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence about liberty, freedom, being created equal, and so on, was seldom considered applicable to blacks, slave or free. Seen a subservient race, they were excluded from consideration as members of society and had few rights.


Land-Grant Bills "Blocked By Southern Politicians"
The sectionalism that divided the United States before the Civil War concerned more than just slavery, states' rights, and protective tariffs. Opinions differed on either side of the geographical split between the North and the South over the disposition of land owned by the federal government. In the decade before the war, three land-grant measures that had strong Northern support were defeated by Southern politicians.

A homestead act would have made free western land available to unemployed working men and given them a chance to be independent landowners and farmers. Laborers who did not move west to take advantage of the free land would also benefit because with less competition for jobs, they could demand higher wages. Southern politicians, fearing the West would be filled with non-slaveholders from the more populous North, voted against the measure. "Better for us", said a Mississippian, "that these territories should remain a waste, a howling wilderness, trod only by red hunters than be so settled."

In February 1859, a homestead act was passed in the House, but it was defeated in the Senate when Vice President John C. Breckinridge of Kentucky cast the tie-breaking vote. The next Congress passed the act in both the House and the Senate, but it was then vetoed by President James Buchanan.

A transcontinental railroad act was another land-grant measure that was repeatedly defeated by Southern politicians. Their major disagreement with the project, which would have enabled the country to tap the vast wealth of the West, was that the eastern terminus of the railroad was expected to be at St. Louis of Chicago and not a Southern city.

Southerners also blocked a land-grant college act, which would have provided government-owned land to states for the establishment of agricultural and mechanical schools. Again Southern politicians believed Northerners would derive more benefit from the schools than would Southerners.

Fascinating Fact: The homestead act that was vetoed by Buchanan had passed the House 115 to 65. Of the votes for the measure, 114 came from Northern politicians; 64 of the "nays" came from the Southerners.


Prosser Rebellion "First Major Slave Insurrection" August 30, 1800
The significance of the American Revolution, with its accompanying rhetoric about freedom, was not lost on a young slave named Gabriel who was owned by Virginian Thomas Prosser. Gabriel, also known as Gabriel Prosser, was an intelligent and deeply religious man. He was strongly influenced by the Biblical example of the Jews' flight for freedom as well as the 1790 slave revolution in Saint Domingue (Haiti). The end of the 18th century saw an increased freedom of movement for America's slaves; the accompanying increased interaction between the blacks and whites seemed to indicate that both races were becoming accustomed to their roles of master and servant. Gabriel Prosser, however, would demonstrate that not all blacks were satisfied with a life of servitude.

In the spring and summer of 1800, 25-year-old Prosser laid plans for a slave uprising; his goal was to make himself king of an independent black state carved out of Virginia. His plan called for an attack on Richmond in which the slaves would seize the arsenal and kill all the white people except Quakers, Methodists, and Frenchmen, all of whom Prosser considered "friendly to liberty". The relaxation of slave controls of the time gave Prosser opportunities to associate with other slaves and gather recruits for his plan.

Gabriel's army, estimated at about 1,000 slaves, gathered six miles outside Richmond on the night of August 30, 1800; they might have succeeded in their initial goals had a violent rainstorm not washed away bridges and flooded the roads. Before the insurrectionists could reorganize and reassemble, a black informer revealed the plan to white authorities. Upon orders from Gov. James Monroe, the state militia rounded up suspected slaves and put them on trial. Prosser and about 34 of his followers were convicted and hanged.

The extent of the rebellion- the first major slave insurrection in American history- greatly alarmed white Americans and resulted in a tightening of controls. New regulations greatly curtailed slaves' freedom of movement, and many states enacted laws that made educating slaves illegal.

Protective Tariffs "Benefits For The North"
From the time of the first Congress in 1789 to the outbreak of the Civil War there was dissension between the northern and the southern states over the matter of protective tariffs, or import duties on manufactured goods. Northern industries wanted high tariffs in order to protect their factories and laborers from cheaper European products. Demanding that "American laborers shall be protected against the pauper labor of Europe," tariff proponents argued that the taxes gave "employment to thousands of [American] mechanics, artisans, [and] laborers."

The vast majority of American industry was located in the northern states, whereas the economies of the agricultural southern states were based on the export of raw materials and the importation of manufactured goods. The South held few manufacturing concerns, and southerners had to pay higher prices for goods in order to subsidize northern profits.

The collected tariffs were used to fund public projects in the North such as improvements to roads, harbors and rivers. From 1789 to 1845, the North received five times the amount of money that was spent on southern projects. More than twice as many lighthouses were built in the North as in the South, and northern states received twice the southern appropriations for coastal defense.

The sectional friction caused by the tariffs bills eventually led the country to the nullification controversy of 1832, during which South Carolina declared the tariff laws null and void. John C. Calhoun, the father of nullification, developed the theory of secession and detailed the steps by which a state could sever its relationship with the Union and remove itself from the unfair power of the central government. Federal authority prevailed in the nullification crisis of 1832, but the theories developed by Calhoun would be invoked again when the country split apart in 1861.

"First of all, I feel the need to point out that there never was a civil war in the USA. By definition, a civil war is where 2 or more factions are fighting for control of the same government. The War For States' Rights was not about control of the US government, but about our desire to govern ourselves as an independent nation. That desire still remains strong with us. "

^not my quote, but I like it.



-------------------------------------------------------It started over states rights.


but it became about "slavery"

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לזיין את הקופים

SageTree

Thanks Rev.... as an old civil war junkie, I'm glad that you pointed out the difference and made this a learning op. as well... As I'm sure most people think that the battle flag is the only flag used...

Point withstanding....

Thanks for yours.

I can't wait to get back and read this thread a little harder.

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BudSniffer

The flag was actually used in parts of several other state flags... here is a little history on the origin of the flag: Flags of the Confederate States of America - Definition

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"Nobody thinks the way that I do, I guess nobody dares. My head's so full of things, I set my mind free of them. I'm breaking the rules, breaking all the rules. " -Ozzy Osbourne

The Rev

Random Trivia: President John Tyler, the 10th President and first to take office as VP after the death of the sitting president, William Henry Harrison, later served as a Senator in the Confederate senate.



The Rev

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SageTree

The first paragraph was certainly mentioned by my German Friend, so I'm glad you mentioned this.

Also strangely enough this DID come up in daily conversation Once the man knew I was from the East or 'The Civil War parts' as he called it... this is pretty much right were he took the conversation..... I was lacking for exactly how to explain it...

So it's nice to hear all the answers here.


Hey Rev... I REALLY enjoy all the stuff you've added here and I had NO idea you were such a junkie yourself.... very cool.

You may not know this but I wanted to mention as trivia that the man who many say could have helped in a peaceable way was from my home town.... or I his...

What do you know about this mang?



Also if you haven't or what a quick read that book is pretty good I feel.

Fittingly so, I think the author is harder on him that displaying his 'pros'. I felt like I learned a lot about 'the setting' for the War, even after years... early years, of reading about the time period of the war itself.

Cheers and thanks for the GREAT answers folks....

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adventure

The Confederate flag makes my blood boil. Its a sign of ignorance. Its not a "rebel", "Southern Pride" symbol. Its a symbol of the Anti America. It's the flag of a group that wanted nothing to do with America. It would be like waving a Taliban flag and saying it's Afgany pride...

I once heard a short story on NPR about how a black business owner in a southern state started wearing a Confederate lapell, and a flag on his car. When people were like WTF, he was like yeah its stands for black pride, the idea cause on like wild fire. Black leaders through out the region started wearing the pins. and slowly people stopped flying the flag to represent "Southern Pride" It was a great story I wish I could find the streaming audio on it.

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Coming Full Range