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Old 06-21-2015, 03:46 PM   #21 (permalink)
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But God made butterflies.

Maybe we are the saristic pricks.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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That's like hitler being a good guy because he didn't kick puppies.
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Old 06-21-2015, 07:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Hitlers a prick, he chose to murder millions of people.
God made the puppies.

Make sense?
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:56 AM   #24 (permalink)
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God made hitler.
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Old 06-22-2015, 11:00 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Yeah.. death interpreted as the cessation of the conscious experience seems just as likely after reading this thread to me too.
Death doesn't end consciousness. Consciousness is a constant, like existence. Death doesn't end existence either. Certain experiences, many of those which you identify as "mine" or "self" end. It's more like forgetting.



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Old 06-22-2015, 11:08 AM   #26 (permalink)
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... maybe? Maybe that could be so?


I don't understand how you can say these things as if they are how things truly are.
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:02 PM   #27 (permalink)
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What if we are really cartoons?
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:42 PM   #28 (permalink)
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... maybe? Maybe that could be so?


I don't understand how you can say these things as if they are how things truly are.
I understand. It's all spelled out in my book, about how consciousness is not a product of the brain and how it is an aspect of existence, about how self is an illusion, and so on.

The Universe is an aware thing. That is, awareness of the Universe is it's manifestation. What you take to be "you" is actually the whole show being aware of certain things, and those experiences come with another experience called, "this is me." When those things go away, consciousness does not go with them, just the experience of "This is me."



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Old 06-22-2015, 01:04 PM   #29 (permalink)
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What is the underlying rationale?


I don't have a problem with any of your ideas, I get the feeling there might be certain truth to some of it, yet I want to know how you came to the idea, and maybe more importantly, how you are able to treat it as a belief as opposed to the sort of thing I have with everything, which is more of an inclination toward certain possibilities.
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Old 06-25-2015, 05:29 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
What is the underlying rationale?


I don't have a problem with any of your ideas, I get the feeling there might be certain truth to some of it, yet I want to know how you came to the idea, and maybe more importantly, how you are able to treat it as a belief as opposed to the sort of thing I have with everything, which is more of an inclination toward certain possibilities.
Sorry I didn't respond right away. I haven't had much time to just sit down and collect my thoughts the last few days. I will break it down for you, tho, in a day or two. Probably tomorrow night. I'm getting ready for work right now.

BTW, thanks for asking. I have an issue, myself, with people who hold beliefs just because they like them, yet can't defend them. There is a logical basis for what I'm saying, and I'm happy to share it.



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Old 06-26-2015, 02:08 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Okay, a free moment is mine. Early day at work, leading into a 3-day weekend. Yea, me!

I'm saying that dying is like forgetting, rather than an end to consciousness, because consciousness is not a product of the brain, but rather an aspect of reality. That is, there's one consciousness in the same way that there's one mass, or one existence. I say this because the idea that consciousness can be "made" results in contradiction, and there can be no contradictions in nature. This is the most basic rule of logic and science. There are no contradictions. A thing cannot exist and not exist at the same time, for example.

And that's the problem with consciousness being a product of brain function. Or, more simply put, a product of any set of conditions that lead to an outcome. If YOUR consciousness came into existence as an outcome of causes and conditions (brain function, for example), then it could come into existence AGAIN in the same way, and that's where the contradiction arises. Each of those consciousnesses would be you AND somebody else. That is, you would be you, and not you, at the same time. Take a moment to digest that idea, if you need to.

Now, if that is so, then consciousness has to originate in some other way than as a product of causes. It has to be more intrinsic to the Universe than that. I has be like existence itself is. Existence wasn't created as an effect of causes, because those causes would have to exist to create an effect. Existence just is. So it is with consciousness.

However, everything that you identify with is an experience. Your body is an experience, your name, your stuff, your thoughts, your feelings. The only part that isn't an experience is the consciousness itself. It's like a camera, with everything in it's view being experience. It can't view itself, but the fact that there are views implies it's existence.

Now, if consciousness is intrinsic to the Universe, then it is a part of all things. And all experiences, no matter "who" is having them, are experienced by it. So, when a person lives, and experiences their life, it's really the intrinsic consciousness that's experiencing it, not just "that one person". When that person dies, those experiences end. The memories in the brain vanish, and the sights through those eyes vanish, etc. Just like whatever happened last night when you drank 15 beers "vanished." The experiences go, but the consciousness goes on.

Now, this seems like the same thing at first. You're still losing everything just as you would if your consciousness ceased to be produced. However, when you think it out a bit, you realize that that kind of "dying" process already occurs all the time. You forget things regularly, and big chunks of your life, in terms of your memories, are already gone. It's not the end of the world. It's just part of the constant change of all things.

Does that make sense of what I'm saying?



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Old 06-26-2015, 03:20 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I got no issues with what you are putting forward rev, and can definitely see it being true, but i believe what sirex was questioning wasnt your concept itself, but instead your belief that your concept is fact and true, as opposed to likely or probable etc.

I, and seeminly SirEx as well, tend to think more in terms of possibilities and probabilities... As how could we possibly think we have enough of a grasp on this topic to speak in truths or facts.

I personally am torn between your model (well my idea of it is slightly different but very similar), and the idea of consciousness purely being a product of more complex brains and neural networks or a product of complexity in general.

I think both are very possible and probable, but imo impossible to say one over the other.
And with that said, currently there is even more evidence backing the brain product model... But imo that isnt saying too much as like i alluded to before... We know absolutely nothing about consciousness and death etc etc.
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Old 06-26-2015, 03:28 PM   #33 (permalink)
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My argument proves that the brain product model is impossible. Read it again.



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Old 06-26-2015, 03:56 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I disagree. You propose a decent argument but IMO in now way "proves" anything.
You say it yourself with a "Now, if this is so.."

Also im not sure about you universal law of anti-contradictions as well, which is where much of your proof comes from. We already know that things happen like one particle being in two places at the dame time, popping in and out of existence, etc etc.

Id also like to prod at your idea of the thing about if the brain product model was true there could be two yous etc.
Why do you view such a situation as theoretically impossible.
Like you said, we are just all our compounded experiences put together. So if you could replicate that, you could create another you who also isnt you lol. I dont think of that as a contradiction or impossible. What are the rules that says such a thing cannot be?
Though that is just theory, in practice or w/e i think replicating such a massively complex thing as a persons compounded experiences and resulting neural network would just be so incredibly hard to do, either naturally arising or artificially like with clones or w/e.


All it boils down to though, is that even if you proposed a currently fool-proof argument, currently would definitely be the key word. We have just a tiny part of the picture with regard to consciousness.


Not to attack your idea or belief though my man. Just for the sake of heady discussion of a topic i love.

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Old 06-26-2015, 05:22 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I disagree. You propose a decent argument but IMO in now way "proves" anything.
You say it yourself with a "Now, if this is so.."


Quote:
Also im not sure about you universal law of anti-contradictions as well, which is where much of your proof comes from. We already know that things happen like one particle being in two places at the dame time, popping in and out of existence, etc etc.
Even Quantum Mechanics relies on logic, and the basis of logic is non-contradiction. If non-contradiction were invalid, all knowledge would be impossible, and the universe would be both total chaos and not at the same time.

Quote:
Id also like to prod at your idea of the thing about if the brain product model was true there could be two yous etc.
Why do you view such a situation as theoretically impossible.
Like you said, we are just all our compounded experiences put together. So if you could replicate that, you could create another you who also isnt you lol. I dont think of that as a contradiction or impossible. What are the rules that says such a thing cannot be?
This has been a hard idea for people to get their head around, and I believe it is because they are thinking about it conceptually, rather than experientially. As an abstraction, it seems like no big deal. "So, there's a copy. So what?" But it's a much different thing when you consider it from the concept of what it would be like to experience it.

First, think of what differentiates your consciousness from the rest of them (this is supposing there is once consciousness for every brain). Of all the billions of them that have come into existence, what stands out, experientially, about YOURS? Yours is the only one experiencing experiences for you. That's kinda redundant, but it is, in fact, the most obvious thing about experience. Everyone else's consciousness is an abstraction. Something you experience only as an idea, like knowing they exist, for example.

Now, duplicate that phenomenon. YOU experience being both people, AND you experience the consciousness of the other as no more than an abstraction. The other person IS YOU, yet NOT YOU, at the same time. Here's an example:

Both of the you's sit down facing each other. One of the you's closes his eyes. Now, YOU see the eyelids of the person in front of you AND you are incapable of seeing them because your eyes are closed. Remember, both are YOU, not just copies of your body or something. They are actually YOU. YOU experience being both individuals, from a first-person perspective, yet do not, because each of the you's is also someone else.

See where the contradictions arise?

Quote:
Though that is just theory, in practice or w/e i think replicating such a massively complex thing as a persons compounded experiences and resulting neural network would just be so incredibly hard to do, either naturally arising or artificially like with clones or w/e.
How difficult or easy it would be to replicate a person exactly is irrelevant. You came into being, therefore it is possible for you to come into being. That is enough.


Quote:
All it boils down to though, is that even if you proposed a currently fool-proof argument, currently would definitely be the key word. We have just a tiny part of the picture with regard to consciousness.

Not to attack your idea or belief though my man. Just for the sake of heady discussion of a topic i love.

Don't worry about attacking my ideas. I don't take stuff like that personally. I just want to be understood, so this helps. I do need to work on conveying the idea in a way people can understand. Most of the reactions I've gotten to it are like yours, and (no offense) but it's clear you don't understand what I'm talking about. To me, it is really clear, but there's a way you have to think of it that I can't seem to point people to, properly, so I keep getting rebuttals featuring clones and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and all that.



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Old 06-26-2015, 09:23 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Hmm, I see one apparent flaw in your argument.

Suppose that causes and conditions DO create YOUR consciousness, this does not mean that "it could come into existence AGAIN in the same way". I would imagine it's almost certainly impossible for this to happen in a physical system such as this universe, because the entire universe is constantly undergoing a change of state, for which there are no repeated 'states', and for which an artificial recreation of a pre-existing state would be impossible because it would require the manipulation of the shape of the universe as a whole. We see evidence in highly precise experiments, where for all measurable purposes the physical state of the system is the same, yet repeated experiments produce consistently different results, however minute, due to the presence of, well, the rest of the universe.
A favorable analogy would be the formation of the snowflake, each one a unique formation, the shape of which being dictated by the shape of the entire universe at that instant of creation. (maybe that sounds strange, though I think you already know that electromagnetic and gravitational forces propagate infinitely through space)


If this indeed the case, and the only true possibility is that - it could NOT come into existence AGAIN in the same way - where does your idea stand?

Or do you see a way around this?
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:45 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Literally the worst thing that can happen after we die is sleeping forever.

But why am I scared shitless every time I think about it?
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Old 06-27-2015, 08:18 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Because the concept of oblivion is just something we can't wrap our minds around.. it's beyond our capacity to fathom the sensation of oblivion


I remember when the idea first sank in, I was around 14 years old, and I was filled with this sensation of absolute dread. I didn't sleep at all that night, it was this constant overwhelming sensation of dread coming in great waves. I had always known death as an 'end', but it never really occurred to me with such poignancy what that might actually mean for me.



And personally I don't like that scenario either. But intuitively I feel that it might be the way it is. Somehow, it makes life the most beautiful, it becomes precious and sacred. There's a poetic beauty to it being that way, to see each individual life as a flash of experience, a unique and temporary awareness, that eventually has to disappear - like the stars that are born to live and die to create the planets, which themselves live and die to create us, to live and die and pass on our bodies and the echoes of our actions to the continuum that exists after our death.

We're given a chance to experience this, and do what we will with the time we have, to recognize it is a blessing or not, but in the end, to have to give ourselves up, forever.


Though it is terrifying, no other way of looking at it fills me with such appreciation and love for the lives and the world around me. To look at my family and know that it's such a fragile and temporary thing for us all to be here, now, in this moment, and to recognize how truly awesome it is for this to be so..

you know?
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Old 06-27-2015, 08:34 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Hmm, I see one apparent flaw in your argument.

Suppose that causes and conditions DO create YOUR consciousness, this does not mean that "it could come into existence AGAIN in the same way". I would imagine it's almost certainly impossible for this to happen in a physical system such as this universe, because the entire universe is constantly undergoing a change of state, for which there are no repeated 'states', and for which an artificial recreation of a pre-existing state would be impossible because it would require the manipulation of the shape of the universe as a whole. We see evidence in highly precise experiments, where for all measurable purposes the physical state of the system is the same, yet repeated experiments produce consistently different results, however minute, due to the presence of, well, the rest of the universe.
A favorable analogy would be the formation of the snowflake, each one a unique formation, the shape of which being dictated by the shape of the entire universe at that instant of creation. (maybe that sounds strange, though I think you already know that electromagnetic and gravitational forces propagate infinitely through space)


If this indeed the case, and the only true possibility is that - it could NOT come into existence AGAIN in the same way - where does your idea stand?

Or do you see a way around this?
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How difficult or easy it would be to replicate a person exactly is irrelevant. You came into being, therefore it is possible for you to come into being. That is enough.


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Old 06-27-2015, 08:35 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I'm not saying it's a question of how difficult or easy, I'm saying, impossible.


You came into being, and it is only possible for you to come into being once.
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