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Old 06-27-2015, 08:40 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
I'm not saying it's a question of how difficult or easy, I'm saying, impossible.


You came into being, and it is only possible for you to come into being once.
It doesn't matter if it could never happen under the current circumstances of the universe. It's only important that it is THEORETICALLY possible. So long as it COULD HAPPEN under the right circumstances, that is enough to make a contradiction possible, and contradictions are impossible.



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Old 06-27-2015, 09:17 AM   #42 (permalink)
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But the concept from which I'm surmising the impossibility is based on a theoretical model, and is therefore theoretically impossible. It could not happen because there could not be any 'right' circumstances, and there is no working theory for which such a thing is possible.


(as an aside, I don't disagree that contradictions are impossible. we're definitely on the same page there)
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:32 AM   #43 (permalink)
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But you know what, I'll ignore that for now, because there's something more glaring:

In order for the exact circumstances to be replicated, it would require that the existing YOU did not exist, and for that you would need to arrange for it to happen at a location in time where YOU don't exist, otherwise you DO exist and the state of the universe can not be the same.


Therefore it is impossible to have two of YOU existing simultaneously.


rewritten:

I'm supposing YOU are created due to a unique state of the universe.

You say that this can't be, because then you could recreate that state of the universe somehow and create more than one YOU at the same time.

But in order for the universe to be in the same state, YOU can't exist in it, because the unique state of the universe that created YOU, did not have YOU in it.



So how could you possibly have two of you at the same time?
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Old 06-29-2015, 11:45 AM   #44 (permalink)
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What you're saying is that it could happen, but the Universe prevents it because you can't have the Universe replicate a given set of conditions. That's highly debatable, but ultimately irrelevant for the reasons I gave before.



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Old 06-29-2015, 11:50 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Could you address my most recent post?



The point I make in that post goes beyond the feasibility of replicating a set of conditions.

Supposing it IS possible to replicate a set of conditions, it's crucial to recognize that the set of initial conditions was one in which you DO NOT exist.


So again, how could there ever be two?
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Old 06-29-2015, 12:00 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
I'm supposing YOU are created due to a unique state of the universe.

You say that this can't be, because then you could recreate that state of the universe somehow and create more than one YOU at the same time.

But in order for the universe to be in the same state, YOU can't exist in it, because the unique state of the universe that created YOU, did not have YOU in it.



So how could you possibly have two of you at the same time?
First off, if a given consciousness required a unique state of the universe to exist, it could only exist for a period of time so short that it could hardly be said to have existed at all. This is not the case. Our consciousnesses continue to exist as the Universe changes, and even as our own bodies change. A human being is constantly replacing material in his/her body, yet experience continues.

Secondly, why does the list of causes and conditions required for a consciousness to come into being extend to every possible cause and condition in the entire Universe? This is certainly not the case for any other phenomenon that we know of. Even if such a list were sufficiently long that the odds against replication were infinitesimal to the point of being meaningless, the possibility still remains for it to happen. Nature has a door open to contradiction, and this cannot happen.



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Old 06-29-2015, 12:16 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rev View Post
First off, if a given consciousness required a unique state of the universe to exist, it could only exist for a period of time so short that it could hardly be said to have existed at all. This is not the case. Our consciousnesses continue to exist as the Universe changes, and even as our own bodies change. A human being is constantly replacing material in his/her body, yet experience continues.
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I'm suggesting that a consciousness that is created has its unique 'shape' because of the state of the universe at the instant of conception, the uniqueness that makes you YOU and not anything else, not that the specific state of the universe is required to remain constant for the duration of the conscious lifetime.



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Secondly, why does the list of causes and conditions required for a consciousness to come into being extend to every possible cause and condition in the entire Universe? This is certainly not the case for any other phenomenon that we know of.
Except, it is the case for ALL events, or at least in the context we're speaking. Yes, maybe a landslide will occur because of an earthquake that would have happened regardless of whether or not a rabbit twitched its ear. But it would not be the same landslide. However minute, there is a difference in that landslide because the rabbit twitched its ear. We could never detect it, but based on established physical law, we know it must be so.

This uniqueness should be considered paramount because any variation in the shape of consciousness at conception could not be considered YOU.

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Even if such a list were sufficiently long that the odds against replication were infinitesimal to the point of being meaningless, the possibility still remains for it to happen. Nature has a door open to contradiction, and this cannot happen.



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But again, the list of conditions (which are ALL the conditions), includes you not existing yet. So if somehow the universe reached the same set of conditions again, you would not exist in it, and the contradiction would not occur.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:18 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Unless you can prove that the unique state of the universe you're describing is necessary for a consciousness to come into existence, this whole discussion is meaningless.

If you CAN prove it, it's still irrelevant, because we're still talking about a possible set of circumstances leading to a given outcome, and such a set of circumstances can be replicated, at least in theory, which makes the theory invalid for the reasons I originally described.



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Old 06-29-2015, 01:22 PM   #49 (permalink)
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What about the point of the initial circumstances requiring you not to exist at the point of conception?


If that is the case, where is the contradiction?
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:23 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
What about the point of the initial circumstances requiring you not to exist at the point of conception?


If that is the case, where is the contradiction?
I don't understand what you mean.



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Old 06-29-2015, 01:26 PM   #51 (permalink)
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You say:

"If YOUR consciousness came into existence as an outcome of causes and conditions (brain function, for example), then it could come into existence AGAIN in the same way, and that's where the contradiction arises. Each of those consciousnesses would be you AND somebody else. That is, you would be you, and not you, at the same time."


This being that the contradiction hinges upon two YOUs existing simultaneously.

But if the initial conditions require you to not exist at the point of conception, then there is no simultaneity. Where then is the contradiction?
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:30 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I'm not sure what you mean, but if you're saying that in the case of one incarnation there are conditions which require you not to exist, then they would have to be the same for the other incarnation, in which case you wouldn't exist at all, OR, they would be different sets of conditions, so there would be no contradiction.



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Old 06-29-2015, 01:33 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rev View Post
Unless you can prove that the unique state of the universe you're describing is necessary for a consciousness to come into existence, this whole discussion is meaningless.

On this point I'll just point out that all events are the result of unique states of the universe.

To PROVE such a thing would require understanding how the entire universe and beyond is designed.. but that's why we talk and think about such things. To say the whole discussion is meaningless because of the lack of a complete picture is just absurd.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:42 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Rev View Post
I'm not sure what you mean, but if you're saying that in the case of one incarnation there are conditions which require you not to exist, then they would have to be the same for the other incarnation, in which case you wouldn't exist at all, OR, they would be different sets of conditions, so there would be no contradiction.



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Right, there would be no contradiction because the state of the universe that created you did not include you, 'you wouldn't exist at all'. I think you understand what I mean.



But your proof requires there to be a contradiction...
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:09 PM   #55 (permalink)
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God damn it, do I die or not?
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:39 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
Right, there would be no contradiction because the state of the universe that created you did not include you, 'you wouldn't exist at all'. I think you understand what I mean.



But your proof requires there to be a contradiction...
I think you don't understand what I am saying. I'm talking about two different outcomes from the same set of pre-conditions, which means a contradiction. You're talking about two sets of different pre-conditions, so there's no contradiction.

Quote:
On this point I'll just point out that all events are the result of unique states of the universe.

To PROVE such a thing would require understanding how the entire universe and beyond is designed.. but that's why we talk and think about such things. To say the whole discussion is meaningless because of the lack of a complete picture is just absurd.
As for everything requiring a specific state of the entire universe, if that is so, then replicating conditions would be impossible, and therefore, so would science, since experimentation would be impossible.

You're arguing a "what if" position that is not even logically consistent, let alone based on any kind of observable phenomena, as a rebuttal to what I am proposing. You haven't, on the other hand, shown me any flaw in my logic. The absurdity is yours, man.



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Old 06-29-2015, 02:49 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I think you don't understand what I am saying. I'm talking about two different outcomes from the same set of pre-conditions, which means a contradiction. You're talking about two sets of different pre-conditions, so there's no contradiction.

The Rev

Could you elaborate? You've confused me
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:53 PM   #58 (permalink)
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As for everything requiring a specific state of the entire universe, if that is so, then replicating conditions would be impossible, and therefore, so would science, since experimentation would be impossible.
I'm quite certain that most of the scientific community would agree that replicating exact conditions is impossible..

Conditions can be recreated to enough precision as to serve the purposes of a given experiment, certainly, but you will never meet a doctorate physicist who will tell you that an exact recreation of an experiment is feasible.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:18 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I'm quite certain that most of the scientific community would agree that replicating exact conditions is impossible..

Conditions can be recreated to enough precision as to serve the purposes of a given experiment, certainly, but you will never meet a doctorate physicist who will tell you that an exact recreation of an experiment is feasible.
You're splitting hairs, here. Besides, recreation being possible is not the point. That the conditions can happen is the point. I'm talking about whether something is or is not possible, not whether it's possible for us. If something has happened, then it is possible for it to happen.

Quote:
Could you elaborate? You've confused me
I went back and re-read your post, and I think I misunderstood what you were saying. Are you asking if, on the list of the causes and conditions for your existence, there's a condition that you cannot already exist? If that's what you're saying, then yeah, there couldn't be two of you in that case. However, you're going to have to tell me why "you cannot already exist" would have to be on that list, otherwise it's just arbitrary.



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Old 06-29-2015, 03:32 PM   #60 (permalink)
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You're splitting hairs, here. Besides, recreation being possible is not the point. That the conditions can happen is the point. I'm talking about whether something is or is not possible, not whether it's possible for us. If something has happened, then it is possible for it to happen.
I agree that right now we're concerned with fundamental notions of possibility and logic here, so let's agree to just drop this part of the discussion, at least for the time being? So we can focus on ...

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I went back and re-read your post, and I think I misunderstood what you were saying. Are you asking if, on the list of the causes and conditions for your existence, there's a condition that you cannot already exist? If that's what you're saying, then yeah, there couldn't be two of you in that case. However, you're going to have to tell me why "you cannot already exist" would have to be on that list, otherwise it's just arbitrary.



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Yes that's what I'm saying.

The reason that you cannot already exist goes back to the snowflake analogy. At the instant of conception, and this can be generalized to any event, the state of the entire universe dictates the outcome. Your consciousness is created, like a snowflake, uniquely because of the state of the universe at that instant.

Any minute change in the state of the universe would produce a different result. It doesn't matter how tiny or apparently insignificant that difference might be, the fact is that it must be different, otherwise we're breaking the law of cause and effect.

And certainly your existence in the universe renders an inescapable difference from the initial state of the universe in which you were created. Therefore any consciousness created during a time where your consciousness exists could not be YOU, because that which is your consciousness required a state in which you were nonexistent to be, well, what it is.


Maybe you could create something very, very, very close to you, so much so that it might be undetectable by conventional forms of measurement, but the logical foundation that we've established so far in physics would dictate that there MUST be some difference, even if ONLY due to the presence of the original YOU. And if there is a difference, then it is not you.
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