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Old 07-01-2015, 07:26 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rev View Post
Experience of being aware: self evident.

You cannot both experience being aware and not experience being aware at the same time: basic non-contradiction argument.

If something occurs then conditions can arise in which it can occur: again, self-evident.

I don't see any of the bases of my argument as lacking. All your "alternative scenario" does is to postulate that perhaps the last point could be interfered with. That's not enough to disprove the argument.

If your position is that I have not made a sufficient proof, then I would like you to produce an example of a proof which IS sufficient, so I can have a clearer idea of what it is my argument lacks.



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As far as I know, neither myself nor anyone else has come up with a proof that is sufficient.


Again, I'm fine looking at your idea as an argument, just not as a proof. It would be impossible for me to disprove your argument. And again, I was never trying to disprove your argument.


My position is not that you "have not made a sufficient proof", my position is that what you presented is not a proof. A point you agree with me on, by the definition of a proof, by declaring that, " Of course I could be wrong."


A proof that you could be wrong about is, ironically, a logical contradiction, and clearly is no proof at all.





On the side topic of what I think of your idea critically, I don't know if I'd be able to have much to say if we're defining consciousness as simply as 'the experience of being aware'.

A discussion about the quest for understanding more about reality in the attempt of one day being able to approach the idea of defining consciousness in scientific terms would be more appropriate for where I'm at.
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Old 07-02-2015, 05:30 AM   #82 (permalink)
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As far as I know, neither myself nor anyone else has come up with a proof that is sufficient.
Then what was the point of all that? Fuck off, man.



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Old 07-02-2015, 08:48 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Wow what's your problem?


I said I took issue with how you presented the idea as a proof. The point was to get you to not see your idea as a proof. This is like the 3rd or 4th time I'm saying that... ??



Could anyone chime in? Have I been an asshole without realizing it, or has The Rev not been reading what I'm saying properly?
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Old 07-02-2015, 09:04 AM   #84 (permalink)
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The Rev gets really touchy when he is trying to spam the ideas that he presents in his shitty book...His comments have been a chore to read because of his stubbornness...

It's like when he goes on and on about there not being free will, and how the idea is destructive or some shit...
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Old 07-02-2015, 01:27 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Nobody has proof.

Accept this guy.
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Old 07-02-2015, 04:02 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Wow what's your problem?

I said I took issue with how you presented the idea as a proof. The point was to get you to not see your idea as a proof. This is like the 3rd or 4th time I'm saying that... ??

Could anyone chime in? Have I been an asshole without realizing it, or has The Rev not been reading what I'm saying properly?
If it was really about the label, "proof" or "theory", you could have just said at the beginning that absolute certainty is impossible so you should call it a theory instead of a proof. But you didn't do that. Instead, you started off with "I'm trying to invalidate your proof" and went on for 2-3 pages of making arguments that didn't invalidate anything. THEN, we get to, "well, I don't know of any valid proofs". So then, what's the point?

Personally, I think you were just trying to run down my idea so you could feel or appear smart, and I don't appreciate being used that way. Now, if you had thrown out some ideas that actually, say, pointed out flaws in my logic or something, then there would have been something in it for me, but there wasn't. You just went round and round with your arbitrary "what if?" scenario as if it actually meant something.

So, yeah, I was pissed off by that. You asked why I believed what I believed, and I told you, then I spent a good deal of effort defending what I told you, which shouldn't have even been necessary if your motives were what you said they were. You could have, as I said before, simply pointed out that there was a better label for my argument at the very beginning and let it go at that.



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Old 07-02-2015, 05:25 PM   #87 (permalink)
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As a means of showing what you presented as not being a proof, I decided to present an alternate theory, and try to have you agree that it is a possibility.

I knew that if I could have you admit an alternative possibility, I would have succeeded in that aim. That is what this whole thing 'meant'.


The reason I chose that approach is because I thought it would be unlikely for you to agree right off the bat that "absolute certainty is impossible", because you already took a clear position against it:

fenderbender says:
"I got no issues with what you are putting forward rev, and can definitely see it being true, but i believe what sirex was questioning wasnt your concept itself, but instead your belief that your concept is fact and true, as opposed to likely or probable etc. ... "

to which you respond:
"My argument proves that the brain product model is impossible. Read it again."



Seriously, there is no other way to interpret that, other than you actually think you got this thing figured out.

(and fender was absolutely correct in another respect, I was not questioning the concept itself... so put that shit of me trying to look smart by using you out of your head. I've already established my intelligence as well as I would ever need to on Yahooka lol)
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Old 07-02-2015, 06:20 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Maybe next time you should present your ideas in a direct manner, rather than relying on your ability to predict my reactions. It's as presumptuous as it is unreliable, as you have learned. To me, you came off as someone bent on proving me wrong, not someone who was trying to contribute something. I've dealt with a lot of people in my life who have put nothing on the line themselves, yet are happy to chime in with criticism when I do. Their motives are usually emotional, and ego oriented, and you have behaved no differently than they have. And in spite of your protestations, you've said nothing that inclines me to think that you are exceptional.



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Old 07-02-2015, 06:40 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Well if you can't just take my word for what my intentions were, I think that's your problem. I've got no reason to be deceitful - you presented your idea as true and I chose to attack that manner of presentation in a way I saw fitting. You disagree with my approach, that's fair, I can't hold that against you.


Though perhaps you should be prepared for a backlash when you start throwing around words like "proves" and "impossible" in a public forum where at least one member takes the scientific process to heart?
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Old 07-02-2015, 07:09 PM   #90 (permalink)
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And in spite of your protestations, you've said nothing that inclines me to think that you are exceptional.



The Rev
what a dick.
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Old 07-09-2015, 06:40 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Through hypnosis I was able to see my spirit entering my mothers' womb during the intercourse of my conception. I was able to feel that I selected them, I found something attractive in them both. My mother was powerfully pretending she was feeling nothing and my father was only thinking of how to please himself!

I suffered a motorbike accident without a helmet at 21 years of age. I was in a coma for a month and after I came about I had total amnesia.
There was some conciousness but not the one I have now. I was able to experience with my senses but had no thought, no judgement.

Gradually I started remembering things and people specially when I came in contact with them. That was the time I came in contact with drugs. The experience of LSD was frightening. It showed me that conciousness is dependant on the chemicals in the brain. A fine balance of endorphins keeps our perception of reality normal.

Then there is the subconscious and even the unconscious level of thought and perception.
Then there is telepathy which for me proves that the power of the brain exceeds the limits of its material composition.

What about our Universe having 11 dimensions? We can only perceive 4 (3 of space 1 of time).
What about the limits of our senses? We perceive the world within the limits of our senses. And we perceive very limited, just enough to survive. The Universe is such for us because of the way we see it.

What about the MultiVerse? It is mathematically estimated that there are 10 to the power of 500 Universes, each with its own Physical Laws.

Death is a change of energy. Gradual change throu ageing and at some point we reach a threshold and disappear.
Like matter going throu a black hole... it can not be seen any more but still exists in another dimension.
This is what I think death is. A transformation into another dimension.

We must first define what life is in order to think about what part of us is eternal beyond death. We don't know what life is, we know what living is.

Finally, according to ancient mythology Zeus created humans to live forever and serve the Gods, but introduced death after humans became corrupt and disrespectful so that their evil would not be eternal.
Hercules went to Hades (the Kingdom of the dead). With the help of Athena (Goddess of wisdom) he defeated Cerberus (the guard of the gates of Hades) who is a dog like monster with three heads

1)oblivion,

2)refusal of truth,

3)disrespect of natural law

with these 3 heads it would bite anyone trying to enter or exit the Kingdom of the Dead (Hades) and transfer to them these properties.


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Old 07-10-2015, 12:18 PM   #92 (permalink)
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What it boils down to IMO, is that nothing can be ruled out, nor declared true or proven.

We know so little about consciousness and death that it would be very silly to think either of you have such a substantial grasp on it.

Which is why i like thinking in terms of possibilities and probabilities when it comes to topics like this.
Ftfy
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Old 07-10-2015, 12:32 PM   #93 (permalink)
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You sayin' I think I have a grasp on this kind of stuff?



UH-UH!
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Old 07-10-2015, 12:39 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Also good to see you posting again Sage!
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Old 07-10-2015, 02:01 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Quote:
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You sayin' I think I have a grasp on this kind of stuff?



UH-UH!
However you want to paint it what you are speaking much about,

I see you digging your heals in to something.

My "fix" was predominantly addressing the limited over the possibilities,
throughout both you and revs exchanges.
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Old 07-10-2015, 02:14 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Ah, well I certainly agree with you that it would be silly for either of us to think that we have a substantial grasp on it.


And I'll go so far as to concede that the 'alternate theory' I presented was full of holes - though the thing I was digging my heels into is more or less what you're pointing out - that when taking on this concept you can't simply declare something is true.



Unless you mean that I shouldn't be digging my heels into the idea that we shouldn't be digging our heels into a particular idea :P
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Old 07-10-2015, 04:25 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Ftfy
I actually meant it as an all inclusive "you", equally directed at everyone and anyone, myself included.
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Old 07-11-2015, 06:28 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Ah, well I certainly agree with you that it would be silly for either of us to think that we have a substantial grasp on it.


And I'll go so far as to concede that the 'alternate theory' I presented was full of holes - though the thing I was digging my heels into is more or less what you're pointing out - that when taking on this concept you can't simply declare something is true.

Unless you mean that I shouldn't be digging my heels into the idea that we shouldn't be digging our heels into a particular idea :P
On that later, no not at all, am I saying that... you read what I was sharing correctly.

At best, to me, this is an all 'in theory' or 'I believe' conversation.
But I too feel that science has it's own set of beliefs,
by which folks 'nullify' ideas...

While I feel science is a good 'where we are at' and don't reject it,
I do feel there is a deeper human consciousness that could analyze the results, if you follow me.

I think the dichotomy between 'science' and 'belief' hurts us more than anything.

In a world where the current Pope is more progressive on environmental
and social issues than the Republican party, anything can happen.

Quote:
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I actually meant it as an all inclusive "you", equally directed at everyone and anyone, myself included.
Seen seen, Brother.
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Old 07-11-2015, 11:03 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dimdim View Post
Through hypnosis I was able to see my spirit entering my mothers' womb during the intercourse of my conception. I was able to feel that I selected them, I found something attractive in them both. My mother was powerfully pretending she was feeling nothing and my father was only thinking of how to please himself!

I suffered a motorbike accident without a helmet at 21 years of age. I was in a coma for a month and after I came about I had total amnesia.
There was some conciousness but not the one I have now. I was able to experience with my senses but had no thought, no judgement.

Gradually I started remembering things and people specially when I came in contact with them. That was the time I came in contact with drugs. The experience of LSD was frightening. It showed me that conciousness is dependant on the chemicals in the brain. A fine balance of endorphins keeps our perception of reality normal.

Then there is the subconscious and even the unconscious level of thought and perception.
Then there is telepathy which for me proves that the power of the brain exceeds the limits of its material composition.

What about our Universe having 11 dimensions? We can only perceive 4 (3 of space 1 of time).
What about the limits of our senses? We perceive the world within the limits of our senses. And we perceive very limited, just enough to survive. The Universe is such for us because of the way we see it.

What about the MultiVerse? It is mathematically estimated that there are 10 to the power of 500 Universes, each with its own Physical Laws.

Death is a change of energy. Gradual change throu ageing and at some point we reach a threshold and disappear.
Like matter going throu a black hole... it can not be seen any more but still exists in another dimension.
This is what I think death is. A transformation into another dimension.

We must first define what life is in order to think about what part of us is eternal beyond death. We don't know what life is, we know what living is.

Finally, according to ancient mythology Zeus created humans to live forever and serve the Gods, but introduced death after humans became corrupt and disrespectful so that their evil would not be eternal.
Hercules went to Hades (the Kingdom of the dead). With the help of Athena (Goddess of wisdom) he defeated Cerberus (the guard of the gates of Hades) who is a dog like monster with three heads

1)oblivion,

2)refusal of truth,

3)disrespect of natural law

with these 3 heads it would bite anyone trying to enter or exit the Kingdom of the Dead (Hades) and transfer to them these properties.

Well said. How did you get into a hypnotic state like that? Did you do it yourself, or did someone help you go into it and you went into it? Were you sober, or on drugs at the time?
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Old 07-11-2015, 11:10 AM   #100 (permalink)
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The greatest dump of your life and you don't get the sweet sweet relief of it.
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