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Old 10-31-2015, 11:26 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I like to keep this fight local. REALLY local. I'm only trying to change myself, IOW.

In that, I feel the best thing I can do is listen to what the people in my life have to say, and make an effort to understand. I think if I can see where they are coming from, then how I behave toward them, and with them, takes care of itself. It's about accepting that I have more questions than answers.



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Old 10-31-2015, 11:42 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I read this article when it was published and didn't particularly enjoy it much either. I'm surprised that the school would send it in a mass email. However, I do know that many schools, like York U out this way, have severe problems with sexual assault on campus and people are working hard to combat this problem.

I think that terming a phrase, and making it a phenomenon is risky because it enters the realm of identity politics, basically leaving people to fight on behalf of their own worth. "Nice guy," title shouldnt be exclusively viewed as problematic, so much as some of the ideologies that stem from it, which is what I believe the article was attempting to penetrate.

As a woman I've had experiences with this type of ideology. Too many times to count actually, and even much more often when I was young and went out more frequently.
One instance is when I gave a guy my phone number when I just moved to Toronto, thinking we could be friends. When I didnt respond right away he started messaging me with messages such as "Oh you're one of THOSE girls, who gives their numbers out and doesnt respond to text messages." He then went on to scold me on how he was a 'good guy' and that 'women like me' can't see that stuff.

Unfortunately some people do think this way as a product of misogyny (the thousands of years of men consciously/unconsciously feeling entitled to womens' space) . Now that doesn't mean that all men think this way, it simply means it exists. It's important to be of sober enough thought to see the nuances within people and specific situations, which is why I think we should leave the term "Nice guy" as a general term, and not claim it as a phenomenon under 'feminism'. But everyone has different ideas of what progress is, so that's what makes any movement so difficult and complex.

People that do that are definitely needy and have some sort of issue with self esteem.

If I dont get a response from a gril, i move on with my life that quickly. Most normal girls do the same thing when I dont respond to them.

I feel like i dodged a hella bullet though this one time where i deaded things with this one girl (things aka two dates/making out) and got a wall of text with how im a bad person etc. I only did that cause the end of the second date I knew she had a bit of crazy and decided to just get cold with it and cut off communication.
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Old 10-31-2015, 11:49 AM   #23 (permalink)
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One instance is when I gave a guy my phone number when I just moved to Toronto, thinking we could be friends. When I didnt respond right away he started messaging me with messages such as "Oh you're one of THOSE girls, who gives their numbers out and doesnt respond to text messages." He then went on to scold me on how he was a 'good guy' and that 'women like me' can't see that stuff.
I don't think that sort of behaviour has to do with misogyny, but just insecurity and general frustration (with his life, not with you).

Or rather, what he said to you may be misogyny, but the reason for it is not.
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Old 10-31-2015, 01:08 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I don't think that sort of behaviour has to do with misogyny, but just insecurity and general frustration (with his life, not with you).
Insecurity definitely likely has something to do with it.

At the same time he's choosing to see me as something when he doesn't even know me. This reflects ideology.

Ideology

The ideology of entitlement of women's space is reflected all over pop culture. Among friends: "You paid for dinner? Man, she better put out" On the internet (as seen here plenty): "Tits or gtfo". Pornography, music videos, film. Of course there are standards for men too. These specific examples infringe on a woman's security of being.

Because of these ideologies, there are unspoken expectations. (For men too, fto "be the nice guy"). I wish I could say that this is an isolated incident of insecurity, but I've had several instances where a woman's right to decline (my own) is overridden by a man who thinks he deserves to go on a date or oggle me, or whatever. It makes us feel unsafe, because of the power difference.
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Old 10-31-2015, 01:27 PM   #25 (permalink)
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He said something and you assumed his entire reasoning and ideological perception, isn't that also projecting?
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Old 10-31-2015, 01:36 PM   #26 (permalink)
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He said something and you assumed his entire reasoning and ideological perception, isn't that also projecting?
I didn't assume. He laid it out in his texts.
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Old 10-31-2015, 01:39 PM   #27 (permalink)
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People in general have a bad habit of putting expectations on each other that are rooted in their own temperaments and ways of thinking.


A counterpoint to this example would be a woman who after having slept with a man, now expects him to treat her differently (expects exclusivity, preferential treatment, etc)

Different parties would see her reaction as valid or invalid.


And there probably isn't a 'right' answer. There isn't a state of things for which the statement 'this is how things should be' can be true.





The take home lesson is not to try and have other people adhere to your expectations of behavior, but to yourself be considerate of your own expectations, and through fostering and exemplifying that attitude, ideally see it spread amongst your peers because of how functional it ends up being.
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Old 10-31-2015, 01:55 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I didn't assume. He laid it out in his texts.
But you expanded what he said and broadcast it as a judgment on society.
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Old 10-31-2015, 04:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Insecurity definitely likely has something to do with it.

At the same time he's choosing to see me as something when he doesn't even know me. This reflects ideology.

Ideology

The ideology of entitlement of women's space is reflected all over pop culture. Among friends: "You paid for dinner? Man, she better put out" On the internet (as seen here plenty): "Tits or gtfo". Pornography, music videos, film. Of course there are standards for men too. These specific examples infringe on a woman's security of being.

Because of these ideologies, there are unspoken expectations. (For men too, fto "be the nice guy"). I wish I could say that this is an isolated incident of insecurity, but I've had several instances where a woman's right to decline (my own) is overridden by a man who thinks he deserves to go on a date or oggle me, or whatever. It makes us feel unsafe, because of the power difference.
I think in a lot of cases with guys like this it's more fantasy than ideology. It's not a case of assumed "right" to something, more so it is assumed that the feeling is mutual. When it becomes clear that this is not true they project the anger and frustration of themselves onto you. They didn't get carried away, lost in a fantasy... you led them on etc. It's a defense mechanism. I guess bitterness can develop harmful stereotypes of women over time but I would say the only ideology in these cases is of relationships and courtship in general. I personally can maybe think of one guy that might say something akin to "I bought dinner so she better put out" and I'm not even convinced he would truly believe it.
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Old 10-31-2015, 05:24 PM   #30 (permalink)
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ftfy
I was talking about understanding women, and their different experience from my own (as a non-woman), but OK, I guess.

Also, I think "Tits or GTFO" is more of a spoof of the ideology you're talking about, Reverie, and not an expression of it. I guess it's all in context, but I always thought of it, at least here, as guys being deliberately absurd for everyone's amusement.

Then again, communications are about two parties, so whatever the intention, if it makes a woman feel unsafe or disrespected, that's as valid a part of the exchange as the goofball intentions of the poster. Ignoring those feelings would validate the misogyny.



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Old 10-31-2015, 05:58 PM   #31 (permalink)
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also lol at 'pay for dinner' and 'tits or gtfo'

media examples: free market. deal with it. Womens magazines are loaded with images of beautiful scantily clad women all the same as your examples of movies and music videos.

Guess who buys womens magazines?

Guess who makes them?
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:22 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Seriously, Geeno?

Men dominate the print publication world and ownership of it. In fact in the literary world in general. "The Literary ceiling" touches on this.

Sexism in publishing: 'My novel wasn (This is by The Guardian, a large relatively 'reputable' media publication.)

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But you expanded what he said and broadcast it as a judgment on society.
No. This is what I said:
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At the same time he's choosing to see me as something when he doesn't even know me. This reflects ideology.

The ideology of entitlement of women's space is reflected all over pop culture.....Cont...
By saying "It's reflected all over pop culture," I'm not making an unfounded imaginary judgement. It's suggesting that the ideas can be seen throughout such mediums I outlined, and much more.

And even if I was making a judgement on society, I would not be alone. It's an idea embraced by sociologists, psychologists and academia. Misogyny/patriarchy is a well-observed and accepted assessment in today's world. All the scientific data supports it.
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:25 PM   #33 (permalink)
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communications are about two parties, so whatever the intention, if it makes a woman feel unsafe or disrespected, that's as valid a part of the exchange as the goofball intentions of the poster. Ignoring those feelings would validate the misogyny.



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Ahmen, brother Rev. Well said.
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Old 10-31-2015, 10:05 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Seriously, Geeno?

Men dominate the print publication world and ownership of it. In fact in the literary world in general. "The Literary ceiling" touches on this.

Sexism in publishing: 'My novel wasn (This is by The Guardian, a large relatively 'reputable' media publication.)



No. This is what I said:


By saying "It's reflected all over pop culture," I'm not making an unfounded imaginary judgement. It's suggesting that the ideas can be seen throughout such mediums I outlined, and much more.

And even if I was making a judgement on society, I would not be alone. It's an idea embraced by sociologists, psychologists and academia. Misogyny/patriarchy is a well-observed and accepted assessment in today's world. All the scientific data supports it.
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Old 11-01-2015, 04:11 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Geeno DOES have a point. Slut shaming, for example, is generally a woman on woman crime. However, I think the point to be taken is that we should be solving the problem, not assigning blame. It matters far less who put(s) the problem there than who's going to take the initiative to correct it.



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Old 11-01-2015, 04:27 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Seriously, Geeno?

Men dominate the print publication world and ownership of it. In fact in the literary world in general. "The Literary ceiling" touches on this.

Sexism in publishing: 'My novel wasn (This is by The Guardian, a large relatively 'reputable' media publication.)

.
Pseudonyms are used by everyone to try to create a more appealing name. Far from a great example. Not only that but literature is absolutely not what I was speaking about.

You say these things infringe on your security of being, well if they're so damaging why are women still buying them? Do you think men buy cosmo?

In movies, do you think anyone wants to watch a fat purple haired thick glasses wearing love interest in a movie?

fashion, also dominated by women and gay men.
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Old 11-01-2015, 05:56 AM   #37 (permalink)
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fashion, also dominated by women and gay men.

Fwiw, you click on almost any one of these countries and you get a majority of male designers.

Wikipedia : List of Fashion Designers
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Old 11-01-2015, 07:21 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Pseudonyms are used by everyone to try to create a more appealing name. Far from a great example. Not only that but literature is absolutely not what I was speaking about.
The thing is is that kind of study has been executed time and time again. A man's name is more successful, and more lucrative than a woman's. I cited literature because it's important to see how wide the scope of this kind of thing reaches.

Also, if you want to talk women's magazines specifically.

Meet the owner of Hearst Magazines:



Gary Ellis Appointed Chief Digital Officer, Hearst Magazines International | Hearst

Hearst owns:

Cosmopolitan
Elle
Marie Claire
O, Oprah Magazine
Seventeen
Woman's Day
Good Housekeeping
(The list continues)

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You say these things infringe on your security of being, well if they're so damaging why are women still buying them? Do you think men buy cosmo?
When I touched on woman's security I was talking about the specifically about expectations placed on woman to exchange their sexuality for favours (ie: "Put out after dinner," "Tits or gtfo.")


But if you're talking about why women consume and create content that is guilty of objectification? This touches on why it is a systemic problem rather than a problem of the sexes . Our most basic psychological conditioning shows that we mimic what we see.


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In movies, do you think anyone wants to watch a fat purple haired thick glasses wearing love interest in a movie?
Illuminates precisely a part of the problem.
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Old 11-01-2015, 07:23 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Geeno DOES have a point. Slut shaming, for example, is generally a woman on woman crime. However, I think the point to be taken is that we should be solving the problem, not assigning blame. It matters far less who put(s) the problem there than who's going to take the initiative to correct it.



The Rev
Again, I feel this is part of the systemic problem, and why this isn't just an issue where men are simply guilty/ battle of the sexes. Women can be guilty as well.
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Old 11-01-2015, 07:33 AM   #40 (permalink)
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definitely a systemic issue

definitely not because they like it and enjoy it
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