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Old 11-01-2015, 07:36 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Opening a can of social science worms, lol.

Do they like it and enjoy it? Why do they like it an enjoy it? Who is the figurative "they," and how can we argue for or against them?
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Old 11-01-2015, 07:41 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeno View Post
definitely a systemic issue

definitely not because they like it and enjoy it
If I read this correctly.... that it's ripe with sarcasm....

I'd say that there is a difference between looking good, feeling good, having that noticed.....
and getting whooped at (being objectified).

I don't feel that anyone enjoys being objectified,
and can think of lots of examples when people doing so to me feel insulting to who I am/how I dress/where I am at etc....
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Old 11-01-2015, 07:43 AM   #43 (permalink)
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It really is a tremendously interesting subject. Thats why we keep coming back to it
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Old 11-01-2015, 07:51 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Tree View Post
If I read this correctly.... that it's ripe with sarcasm....

I'd say that there is a difference between looking good, feeling good, having that noticed.....
and getting whooped at (being objectified).

I don't feel that anyone enjoys being objectified,
and can think of lots of examples when people doing so to me feel insulting to who I am/how I dress/where I am at etc....
See my whole perspective is that I am in control of my feelings and I don't give the power up to others to control my mind. Thats how i personally view those things.

Sometimes it's good though, Ive definitely had unpleasant experiences with other peoples opinions that caused me to re-evaluate something. Like the last time I wore zipper pants, the kind that zipper in to shorts. I'm thankful I gave that up as a regular article of wear.


And Reverie I'm with you, but i'd like to add the questions 'is this okay' 'is this damaging' 'does it effect me'

I think we all know also that people have desires that do not agree with their actions. Self sabatoging types that are very obvious all the way to people that are just uncomfortable or depressed because they surround themselves with a life that they ultimately dont want.

People might often espouse that they don't agree with certain images but at the same time consume them massively. Consider reality tv formats that still dominate broadcasting. How often do people actually admit that they love it? Seems pretty rare.


We definitely don't live in a perfect society and we never will but it's going to be interesting to see where things are at 20 years from now when we'll have a few generations having grown up with access to all kinds of information.

I really hope we're all still talking about this then. <3
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Old 11-01-2015, 08:08 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Geeno View Post
It really is a tremendously interesting subject. Thats why we keep coming back to it
How 3-d printers work is interesting to most people because they only hear about them.

I would agree interesting.... generally speaking.

But leaven that interest by saying it's incredibly important,
as it effects people day to day, man, woman and child. (and beyond in my own opinion)


This is why I extend It-All beyond sentient, human life though...

Feminism is about the sexes yes....
but it's also about looking at what we know,
and why we know it...... Deconstruction, Decolonizing....

Looking at all the evidence. Not just what confirms a larger,
unspoken, uninvestigated story of 'who we are' that we accept....
But might not consciously agree with.

And that sort of of complacency, while challenging to consider,
can hold back all of existence....

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Originally Posted by Geeno View Post
See my whole perspective is that I am in control of my feelings and I don't give the power up to others to control my mind. Thats how i personally view those things.
While I understand what you are saying....
I suppose the territory I'm leaning towards is that of personal safety.

While I am glad you feel confident in 'not giving up your mind to control',
and am happy you are able to welcome the vulnerable place in your mind,
to consider other ideas as well.


Quote:
We definitely don't live in a perfect society and we never will but it's going to be interesting to see where things are at 20 years from now when we'll have a few generations having grown up with access to all kinds of information.
I am really proud of my niece. She started asking tough questions, about two years ago, about what was 'ok', in regard to her body, what others were allow to do with it, and where/who the women are in a particular thing, be in science, sports, history, as well as noticing the lack-of/diversity in TV and how society in portrayed. She's currently 14 and in 9th grade. And her step-brother is equally curious about these things. I definitely wasn't on that exact page, when I was in 9th grade.

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I really hope we're all still talking about this then. <3
Frankly, I hope we aren't.... like we don't but/hear mention polio, the legality of inter-racial marriage etc.... Wouldn't you agree?
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Old 11-01-2015, 08:21 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I was thinking about the magazines and how women buy them.. And then how women aspire to be like the women in the pictures.. Pictures that aren't exactly real.."photoshop".. You see women getting plastic surgery and starving themselves and men as well..

Is this not "weeding" out the weak? I don't know what I mean buy that but if you see that these people who have to actually change who they are in physical form because of what they want to please the rest of us.. For our viewing pleasure when it all comes down to it. Anyone who says they are getting a nose job for themselves is full of shit.. You are getting a nose job to feel comfortable when you are around everyone else..

And then it brings me to all things.. Nature.. We have nature magazines..gardening .. House and home.. Everything. When I worked as a gardener they were replacing their furniture regularly..

Why?
Because they are keeping up with the Jonses..they spend 100,000 on a garden for 6 months all for what? They are only there 2 weeks of the year..

But it's what it's supposed to look like if you want to be truly happy?

I don't know..

Painting the roses red.. Like getting a nose job..

Leave the white they aren't as eye catching but at least they are yours.. And you won't get your head chopped off in the end.."loose your mind"..

Even though you spend thousands on your face you still have the same fucked up mind telling you your face still isn't good enough until your face looks like melted candlewax.

Hope this makes sense.
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Old 11-01-2015, 08:30 AM   #47 (permalink)
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It's amazing what is accepted and what's considered damaging. There was a northcarolina women recently made blind because she felt she was always supposed to be.
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Old 11-01-2015, 08:49 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Turm,

I would say, in those more extreme cases you bring up, like an major eating disorder, it does prey on folks' self esteem, no doubt, and certainly there is something deeper going on there.

But I feel it also sows a lot of seeds in 'normal' folks' heads as well, men and women.... and it's those ideas of image,
that permeate society as 'normal' that I feel are the most dangerous to the 'average' person.

You're definitely correct in your Joneses example, and that's the 'dangerous thinking'.... at least 'wasteful thinking' I mention above.
Imagine if people we lead to believe the Joneses where spending their money on alternative energy, sustainable landscapes and feeding the needy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeno View Post
It's amazing what is accepted and what's considered damaging. There was a northcarolina women recently made blind because she felt she was always supposed to be.

This is why, in sound medical practice, there is consultation with a mental health professional before procedures.


My brother-in-law was shocked to find this would take place with a gastric-by pass.




Out of curiosity.... was she professionally blinded or was this a Do-it-at-home thing?
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Old 11-01-2015, 08:52 AM   #49 (permalink)
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That makes sense (@ turm).


And let's not forget for every Cosmo for women, there's a GQ for men. And there are men out there scrambling around trying to get their six packs and the latest kicks, worrying bout their dick sizes and their hairstyles.




And to extend from this; for every magazine and tv show that exploits gender identity to sell products and ideas, there's another that exploits people's insecurities in a different way -- maybe you don't have a nice enough car, good enough job, big enough house -- maybe you don't yoga enough! -- maybe you don't smell good enough! -- etc etc




A bigger problem, that encompasses a lot of this stuff, is that there's a really good mechanism that's been established for telling people how to think (the media, education system, perpetuated attitudes of those already indoctrinated, etc) and unfortunately, most people subconsciously enjoy being told how to think (this is something pretty well established by scientific evidence) especially if the 'lessons' have been reinforced by their own environment.

And this mechanism exists not to subjugate and manipulate people in their treatment and view of women, but to subjugate and manipulate everyone in their relationship to themselves, everyone else and, well, reality.




So yeah, the women's plight is just a subset of a much larger issue. And ironically a large part of the way the fight against that plight has been fought, has involved mimicking the same tactics used by the adversity.
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Old 11-01-2015, 09:05 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Tree View Post
Feminism is about the sexes yes....
but it's also about looking at what we know,
and why we know it...... Deconstruction, Decolonizing....

Looking at all the evidence. Not just what confirms a larger,
unspoken, uninvestigated story of 'who we are' that we accept....
But might not consciously agree with.

I agree that all of this is important.

But if 'feminism' is all of these things, then 'feminism' is in serious need of a different monicker.
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Old 11-01-2015, 09:13 AM   #51 (permalink)
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I poured drain cleaner in my eyes to blind myself | New York Post

allegedly a psychologist helped get her started then she may have gone DIY.

Im fairly certain that whole part is under investigation
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Old 11-01-2015, 09:43 AM   #52 (permalink)
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I agree that all of this is important.

But if 'feminism' is all of these things, then 'feminism' is in serious need of a different monicker.
I think feminism is important, as a label because, like the #BlackLivesMatter vs #AllLivesMatter battle.... the issue surely is with all lives mattering....

But the movement is addressing the area of greatest crisis.



A lot of feminists I know, myself included, often will hyphenate feminism, with one of the other labels (Non-Colonial, De-Constructionist), or something akin to it (Non-Western), to lend the label to a larger idea, while still addressing it's specific angle.



Consider this.

It's confusing, but it's a bit of a 'Left-Handed Path' of sorts. It's not to say 'Right-Handed people suck'.... It's about an alternative world view.....

And in Feminism's case, over all, it's not about saying 'one is better',
rather it's about getting a whole picture of the knowledge we have.

It's 'Feminist theory', if you will.

My personal feeling is people getting over it being called Feminism,
would be one of the first large steps of progress in understanding what it's all truly about..... rather than Feminism getting over calling itself so, I it's view has settled long enough..... Just my .02.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
And let's not forget for every Cosmo for women, there's a GQ for men. And there are men out there scrambling around trying to get their six packs and the latest kicks, worrying bout their dick sizes and their hairstyles.
No doubt that body image is a female only issue in part of the Societal Myth.


Quote:
And to extend from this; for every magazine and tv show that exploits gender identity to sell products and ideas, there's another that exploits people's insecurities in a different way -- maybe you don't have a nice enough car, good enough job, big enough house -- maybe you don't yoga enough! -- maybe you don't smell good enough! -- etc etc
I agree.... this is definitely a problem in most societies.

"That you aren't good enough unless you are XYZ"

Quote:
A bigger problem, that encompasses a lot of this stuff, is that there's a really good mechanism that's been established for telling people how to think (the media, education system, perpetuated attitudes of those already indoctrinated, etc) and unfortunately, most people subconsciously enjoy being told how to think (this is something pretty well established by scientific evidence) especially if the 'lessons' have been reinforced by their own environment.
This is the sort of stuff that Feminist theory looks at....

Deconstructing the system and the 'truth' present in it.
Looking to find if these are true...
Or if these are just myths we perpetuate to be true
because we said them for so long.

Questioning why we know what we know.... not just what we know.

Quote:
And this mechanism exists not to subjugate and manipulate people in their treatment and view of women, but to subjugate and manipulate everyone in their relationship to themselves, everyone else and, well, reality.
However, women and other groups have been suppressed the most through this system of misinformation.

But you are right, oppressing one part of our society, oppresses us all.


Quote:
So yeah, the women's plight is just a subset of a much larger issue.
Again... agreed.

Quote:
And ironically a large part of the way the fight against that plight has been fought, has involved mimicking the same tactics used by the adversity.
In some cases yes, it's often portrayed that way, assuming this statement is in some what of a negative light.

However, there are also methods of similarity, which are completely founded,
such as scientific inquiry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeno View Post
I poured drain cleaner in my eyes to blind myself | New York Post

allegedly a psychologist helped get her started then she may have gone DIY.

Im fairly certain that whole part is under investigation

Body Integrity Identity Disorder

Body Dysmorphic Disorder


Is it wrong? No.


But it's definitely a new frontier, and doesn't currently 'fit' into the current system and supports in place.
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Old 11-01-2015, 09:48 AM   #53 (permalink)
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I think the roots of a word should reflect its actual meaning.

Which is why I would never call myself a feminist.

I understand the problem at hand to be inclusive of both genders, and to include and encapsulate far more than just gender. So why would I choose a word that is rooted in just women?


Although the truth of it is I don't choose a word. And please if you ever catch me self-labeling (I'm pretty sure I don't), let me know. I'm pretty careful to avoid that crap.



"However, women and other groups have been suppressed the most through this system of misinformation."


This is something I can't agree or disagree with. The difficulty in quantifying what 'suppression' means, and to apply it across an entire population...c'mon man.
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Old 11-01-2015, 09:54 AM   #54 (permalink)
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It should be called 'inclusivism' or something lol
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Old 11-01-2015, 10:05 AM   #55 (permalink)
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It seems to be pretty divisive for all its claims of inclusion.
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Old 11-01-2015, 10:16 AM   #56 (permalink)
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In some cases yes, it's often portrayed that way, assuming this statement is in some what of a negative light.

However, there are also methods of similarity, which are completely founded,
such as scientific inquiry.

.

Mm definitely nothing wrong with scientific inquiry.



Also I didn't mean to come across as personally offensive if I did when I referred to self-labeling as crap.

I think it's crap though. And it tends to be a good indicator of simplistic thinking.
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Old 11-01-2015, 10:32 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I think the roots of a word should reflect its actual meaning.
Quote:
Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women
Quote:
I understand the problem at hand to be inclusive of both genders, and to include and encapsulate far more than just gender. So why would I choose a word that is rooted in just women?
I would agree the problem of woman's rights/equality is a problem of men and women, so would agree it encompasses both genders.

But do not see how it extends outside of or beyond them, as the world is essentially governed by the male and female genders as well as the qualities of each present in the natural world.


I feel that while men disadvantage themselves (intentionally and unintentionally) through not being more inclusive of women/the feminine...

In the end it is they who largely disadvantage the other group, who are women/the feminine perspective, in this case

As well as the other marginalized groups that feminism has represented throughout the ages. (IE. Abolition of Slavery)


In other words, I take no issue with it being called 'feminism', as I feel it represents an issue in society, as it pertains to the individual rights, liberties and opportunities, as well as seeking equal footing in the qualities we value in society.


Quote:
This is something I can't agree or disagree with. The difficulty in quantifying what 'suppression' means, and to apply it across an entire population...c'mon man.
So instead of looking at who is oppressed/suppressed the most.

Look at it this way.

Who has benefited the most through suppression and oppression?

I'm telling you it's not women and minority populations.
That is pretty damned clear, mate.

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Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
It should be called 'inclusivism' or something lol
That goes back to the Black vs White Lives Mattering comment I made,
and I hope you at least can entertain what I am saying?

IE. Who is getting shot and killed, via police violence more per capita or being incarcerated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeno View Post
It seems to be pretty divisive for all its claims of inclusion.
All feminists... All Christians.... All Muslims.....


Thanks media.... I think that's 9/10s of the issue.

How it's covered.


Feminism being seen as something it's overwhelmingly not is not new.

When women wanted to vote, own land, or be able to file for a divorce people thought that shit wasn't straight obscene too.


Now what is being sought, in this time, continues to push the status quo.

Are there crazies....? Are we not people?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
Mm definitely nothing wrong with scientific inquiry.

Also I didn't mean to come across as personally offensive if I did when I referred to self-labeling as crap.

I think it's crap though. And it tends to be a good indicator of simplistic thinking.

I'm not seeking to win, or change your mind.


Rather.... only have a perspective,
at least intellectually grasped,
within it's own sphere of language.


You don't need to accept anything I am saying, of course.


So I thank you for striving to make yourself clear as well,
and I hope I can offer you some validation in what you seek as well.
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Old 11-01-2015, 10:39 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Well there's no sense in splitting too many hairs about it. We both don't like oppression. For now I'd say that's enough.


"So instead of looking at who is oppressed/suppressed the most.

Look at it this way.

Who has benefited the most through suppression and oppression?

I'm telling you it's not women and minority populations.
That is pretty damned clear, mate."


Well in all cases it's the oppressor who benefits of course.

Your average man isn't the oppressor though. He's just another person caught up in all the confusion.
Yet a lot of outspoken feminists (not the majority of feminists) convey an attitude contrary to this, and it's the voices of those people that end up reaching the most ears. We hear: men are the oppressors. NO. The oppressors are men and they favour men. But men are not the oppressors. The oppressors could be women, and still, women would not be the oppressors. The oppressors could be lizards! But I'm not gonna blame my iguana and tell it that it needs to join me in the fight against oppressive lizards otherwise it's complicit in their reptilian evil empire.

Your average guy is just trying to make his way though life, and having some stranger harp on him because he's an oppressive male and needs to unite under the feminist banner is just plain counterproductive.
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Old 11-01-2015, 10:55 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
Well there's no sense in splitting too many hairs about it. We both don't like oppression. For now I'd say that's enough.
This is true, no doubt.

Quote:
Your average man isn't the oppressor though. He's just another person caught up in all the confusion.
Yet a lot of outspoken feminists (not the majority of feminists) convey an attitude contrary to this, and it's the voices of those people that end up reaching the most ears. We hear: men are the oppressors. NO. The oppressors are men and they favour men. But men are not the oppressors. The oppressors could be women, and still, women would not be the oppressors. The oppressors could be lizards! But I'm not gonna blame my iguana and tell it that it needs to join me in the fight against oppressive lizards otherwise it's complicit in their reptilian evil empire.

Your average guy is just trying to make his way though life, and having some stranger harp on him because he's an oppressive male and needs to unite under the feminist banner is just plain counterproductive.
Hmmm.... I think rather than man or women.... since women too can participate in oppression.... this is why patriarchy (world view) was embraced.


I think the reason that Third Wave Feminism and other things like Black Lives or Occupy come up against such resistance is this.


Systemic Oppression.


No one WANTS to be an oppressor, or believe they have an unearned privilege over another, or support that kind of system/society.

But the thing is we are and we do....
And it happens even within the marginalized groups themselves.


The reason it comes up against such a wall of resistance, is because it is a wall.
It's a well established order, in which a majority of people are very comfortable,
as they benefit from this order.

This doesn't mean the wall is perfect, right and just to all people.



There are lots of small ways we ALL help keep that wall up,
most of them unconsciously, because we prescribe to the cultural narrative,
which is construed as absolute Truth, basically.

The personal resistance, myself included at time and in ways, is rejecting the idea that we are somehow part of keeping others down.

I think it's that simple, and it's not an easy pill to swallow.
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Old 11-01-2015, 11:07 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Indeed.

And there are those that will always refuse to swallow it.

And even if you do manage to swallow it, it's even less likely to result in action. For most it turns into a ball of cynicism that weighs down on the heart.


Because what it would actually take to stop oppression..

I'm not even sure if it's physically possible. Oppression might be a highly abstracted example of an actual physical truth. I really don't know.
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