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Old 11-03-2015, 03:01 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Old 11-03-2015, 03:28 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Straw man queen
Ahem. Straw person.



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Old 11-03-2015, 06:45 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Sommers is scholar The American Enterprise Institute.

Wikipedia: American Enterprise Institute

American Enterprise Institute | Right Wing Watch
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:09 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Defamation of character is fine and dandy, but are her arguments verifiable or not?
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:11 PM   #85 (permalink)
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so are we really pretending 3rd wave feminism isn't either a) abunch of 300lbs blue haired women pushing all kinds of msgs of hate towards men or b) a lot of misinformed people pushing an agenda for some sort of self serving bullshit?

this isn't the fkin 50s when it was crucial for suffrage and improved working conditions for women.
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:33 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Sex is biologically determined.

Gender is a societal construct.

Sex predisposes us to gender associated behaviour, self image and relationships with others. This predisposition is far from absolute.

End of story.

If Milo's arguments didn't convince you he shouldn't be trusted as an intellectual authority, his choice of hair styles must.
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everything in moderarion (especially moderation)
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:39 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmayne View Post
so are we really pretending 3rd wave feminism isn't either a) abunch of 300lbs blue haired women pushing all kinds of msgs of hate towards men or b) a lot of misinformed people pushing an agenda for some sort of self serving bullshit?

this isn't the fkin 50s when it was crucial for suffrage and improved working conditions for women.
I'm not sure what 3rd wave feminism is, or when it started, but I do know a little bit about Feminism, having taken a women's studies class, and many classes that incorporated Feminist theory, and I feel confident saying that what I consider Feminism to be is not what was presented in Sir-Ex's original post in this thread (the email).


My hypothesis (based on this email and other 'feminism' things I've seen recently) is that with the advent of the internet and easier idea dissemination among average people, Feminism has been hijacked by sub-par intellectuals who are misguided and spread an image of feminism that may in fact reflect the 'angry, lesbian, man hating' minorities in society (akin to the proportion and intellect of women hating men).

These misguided minds gather around Feminism as a vehicle for their insecurities that they trust, when assailed, they can use to counter with generalized progressive/leftist notions they know will hold sympathy with a majority. ('So you think rape is good?!' etc) Or in other words, guilt trip people into puffing up their insecure egos.

Then regular men, and women, read these (not peer reviewed, or even formally published) ideas and think, 'that's feminism? Well I don't agree with this. I'll send it to my friends to show them how stupid it is,' and this idea of what feminism is has attained preeminence, at least outside of academia.


Whether or not this popular hijacking of traditional Feminism can be considered to be the legitimate new form of Feminism, due to the popularity of its ideas, is debatable. But it's certainly not the traditional form of feminism, which challenges paradigm presumptions, as is safeguarded by academia.
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everything in moderarion (especially moderation)

Last edited by Canuck Wisdom; 11-03-2015 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:03 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Feminism says things like;

Why is north the top of the map, why isn't the global south on top?

Why is it the 'world series', when it only includes teams from two nations, and absolutely no women? That doesn't really reflect the whole world.

(and most poignantly) Why is it that going to a factory to produce widgets is recognized by society as deserving of financial compensation, but cooking healthy meals at home and raising morally decent, mentally sound children isn't?
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:51 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Arg why the word feminism then???


You're talking about the activity of questioning societal perspectives that have been designed and reinforced by the powers that be.


Is there something intrinsically female about questioning these things?

No, there isn't. Thinking about this kind of thing has fuck all to do with gender.

Questioning these societal perspectives as they pertain to women falls underneath this umbrella, no doubt!



But it's bigger than gender (or to be more precise- is inclusive of all gender - and more). Take gender out of the fucking word.
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:57 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Sorry for swearing.

But if we're going deep enough as to question the underpinnings of which direction is dominant on a map, we should also be questioning the words we use.
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:22 PM   #91 (permalink)
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I just want to make my point really clear (this is totally not an attack on you canuck, but I'm going to use the 'most poignant' part of your post as a means of establishing that point)


If this is what feminists asks:

Why is it that going to a factory to produce widgets is recognized by society as deserving of financial compensation, but cooking healthy meals at home and raising morally decent, mentally sound children isn't?


Then this is what a person asks:

Why is it that going to a factory to produce widgets is recognized by society as deserving of financial compensation, but:
  • cooking healthy meals at home and raising morally decent, mentally sound children isn't?
  • organizing community events to develop a stronger bond between neighbors isn't?
  • cooking healthy meals at home for yourself and your roommates, reducing the burden on our public health care isn't?
  • being a good influence on the people around you and reinforcing mental stability and moral goodness isn't?
  • sharing your art and other creations among strangers who couldn't otherwise afford it isn't?
  • etc...


Why limit yourself to only looking at the female aspects in a host of potential problems?

Why do you even have to be a 'feminist'? Why be some ... ist .. at all?

Why can't you just be a person who cares and thinks about everything that they are able to?

Why is it that there are homeless people all over downtown and men and women killing themselves because they can't deal with the stress of having enough money to feed their family anymore, and I'm getting emails about holding the door open for women?

Why is it that oceanic ecosystems are dying because of all the shit we're dumping into them, and I'm walking by posters at school telling me what consent is because as a male I'm several times as likely to accidentally rape someone???
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:27 PM   #92 (permalink)
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lol @ rape culture being a thing

fkin idiots i swear
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We are not fat, we are greatly cultivated.
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☆ ★ ☆ ★ ☆ ★ we JACKED, you mad?☆ ★ ☆ ★ ☆ ★

I lash out because no one seems to be honest except for geeno and snowmayne.
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:59 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Quote:
Professor Janice Fiamengo from the University of Ottawa explains why she identifies as an anti-feminist.

Fiamengo, a former feminist who in earlier years marched in "Take Back The Night" campaigns, has given lectures on feminist-related topics at the University of Toronto, Queen's University, the University of Ottawa, and more, and has been featured on The Agenda with Steve Paiken as well as many videos here on Studio Brulé.

Thanks to Jack Carter for bringing to my attention that the current "Yes Means Yes" laws sweeping across the continent actually first appeared at Antioch College in 1991, and were criticized for being impossible to obey. "Adopted in 1991 at the prompting of the “Womyn of Antioch,”" here are some links :

https://www.thefire.org/antiochs-infa...
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jham...


References, Articles, and Links:

If Feminism Is About Equality, Why Do Feminists Oppose Equality?by Janet Bloomfield
http://thoughtcatalog.com/janet-bloom...

Free women's self defense
http://mansfield.wickedlocal.com/arti cle/20150809/NEWS/150808712

Demand for Free Tampons
http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-...

The Right To Kill Husbands, Barabara Kay
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-com...

No Charges For Bogus Assault Claims, Ottawa Sun
http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/05/22/n...

Ottawa hockey team benched
UN: Afghan detainees suffered persistent torture, mistreatment...

Feminists claim to feel "unsafe" when Christina Hoff-Sommers is on campus
Feminist students feel

The Victim Stance is a powerful one.
http://www.zurinstitute.com/victimhoo...

Fiamengo's speech "creates an unsafe atmosphere for many students" at the University of Ottawa
Men...

Fraternity Gang Rape
Google Image Result for http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~psanday/Revised%2520Edition. jpg

Don't be that guy poster
http://www.crimepreventionottawa.ca/M...

"Men believe that they have the right to rape," Andrea Dworkin
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dwork...

Divine STEM
http://www.bates.ctc.edu/WomenInSTEM

How to engage, encourage, and support more female students to study STEM
http://www.slideshare.net/RoyalInstit...

US Girls
http://www.streetgames.org/www/ug/con...

All female Undergraduate English Student Association (UESA) at the University of Ottawa
http://arts.uottawa.ca/english/end-te...

"Of those aged 25 to 34 with university degrees, 59 per cent are women, so they’re (unsurprisingly) a majority on most campuses."
http://www.macleans.ca/education/unia...

Women should speak first in classrooms; Men should not speak at all, Robyn Urback
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-com...

20 things men will never
20 Things Gen Y Needs To Stop Spending Money On...

34 problems men will never understand
Love and Sex Advice - Sex Moves, Love Life, Relationships, and Dating - Cosmopolitan...

Why your man will NEVER undersstand how you feel
Femail - Latest Fashion, Beauty News and Trends | Daily Mail Online...

No men allowed: The surge of the women-only club
http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/news/wor...

Dalhousie Dentistry Students Facebook suspension
Can 13-point aboriginal declaration serve as real roadmap for Idle No More’s demands? | National Post...
https://www.facebook.com/CTVNews/post...
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dalhousi...

Can she consent to sex after drinking? Margaret Wente
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-...

"Yes Means Yes" shifts the burden of proof to the accused. Judge rules university can't shift burden of proof onto the accused
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/jud...
/why feminism today is fkin stupid
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We are not fat, we are greatly cultivated.
Every time I see my curves in the mirror, I tell myself: "How amazing am I ?! "


☆ ★ ☆ ★ ☆ ★ we JACKED, you mad?☆ ★ ☆ ★ ☆ ★

I lash out because no one seems to be honest except for geeno and snowmayne.
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:43 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck Wisdom View Post
I'm not sure what 3rd wave feminism is, or when it started, but I do know a little bit about Feminism, having taken a women's studies class, and many classes that incorporated Feminist theory, and I feel confident saying that what I consider Feminism to be is not what was presented in Sir-Ex's original post in this thread (the email).


My hypothesis (based on this email and other 'feminism' things I've seen recently) is that with the advent of the internet and easier idea dissemination among average people, Feminism has been hijacked by sub-par intellectuals who are misguided and spread an image of feminism that may in fact reflect the 'angry, lesbian, man hating' minorities in society (akin to the proportion and intellect of women hating men).

These misguided minds gather around Feminism as a vehicle for their insecurities that they trust, when assailed, they can use to counter with generalized progressive/leftist notions they know will hold sympathy with a majority. ('So you think rape is good?!' etc) Or in other words, guilt trip people into puffing up their insecure egos.

Then regular men, and women, read these (not peer reviewed, or even formally published) ideas and think, 'that's feminism? Well I don't agree with this. I'll send it to my friends to show them how stupid it is,' and this idea of what feminism is has attained preeminence, at least outside of academia.


Whether or not this popular hijacking of traditional Feminism can be considered to be the legitimate new form of Feminism, due to the popularity of its ideas, is debatable. But it's certainly not the traditional form of feminism, which challenges paradigm presumptions, as is safeguarded by academia.
Yeah i thought it was a given that we were talking about actual feminism and not rabid foaming at the mouth tumblr users that like injecting the word rape where it does not belong and shaming scientists for wearing sexy t-shirts (and shit that scientist guy would have been a great halloween costume). I think it's pretty standard to just straight up ignore most types of internet extremism though right? Otherwise nobody would get anything done..
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Old 11-04-2015, 02:45 AM   #95 (permalink)
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I like how the loudest voices aren't real feminists. And neither is a conservative. That's convenient.
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:37 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Is it not also convenient to argue against extreme opinions? I'm not decided on if i agree that feminism is necessary nowadays but then i don't spend much time thinking about it. I am certainly willing to accept that MAYBE some of my experiences in life are unfairly positive because i am a man and that i am not noticing this.

It's very easy to get hung up on idiots saying that two people having spontaneous consensual drunk sex is an act of rape because that is fucking retarded. Arguing against feminism as a whole based on shit like that is overlooking what may well be real issues.
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:20 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
Defamation of character is fine and dandy, but are her arguments verifiable or not?
I'm only presenting some perspective on where her research comes from.
In particular, that of the institution she works out of.

Where or who funds the research is one of my first questions,
whether I agree with the view point or not.

It being from 'this side' or 'that side' doesn't make in inherently wrong.
Rather, I like to know the various biases that can be present in research and opinion.

Sommers get cite (almost exclusively) here,
so just wanted to post some info about her Institution,

As well as I wanted to share left-wing opinion of said Institution,
since a more right-wing opinion would clearly be more favourable,
because that's the slant of the folks who fund it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex
Arg why the word feminism then???
I feel like I spoke to this question, in response to you,
on another page back.

Quote:
You're talking about the activity of questioning societal perspectives that have been designed and reinforced by the powers that be.
Who has historically, by and large, been men or a continuance of a patriarchal world view.

Quote:
Is there something intrinsically female about questioning these things?
No, simply put.

But like I replied earlier, it's about rounding out the picture with a more inclusive view of knowledge.

Our cultural narrative is centred around male norms and mores.
Being 'feminist' entails asserting that a feminine view as equal
and just as valid for establishing a societal story about Us.

So... as I said 'Black Lives Matter' doesn't mean that 'All Other Lives Don't Matter'.... it's named so to focus on the problem area. In that case, the disproportionate number of Black People at the hands of Law Enforcement, whereas 'Feminism' addresses defining a feminine perspective in our Narrative.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeno View Post
I like how the loudest voices aren't real feminists. And neither is a conservative. That's convenient.
Who are the "Loud Feminists"?

I ask because last time I checked there are loud people on both ends of almost any spectrum,
while the middle tends to be muddled in the noise.



As for the "Conservative" (Politically or Wing) Feminist Voice:
I would not say there aren't feminists.

There are feminists in in many shapes and forms.
What issues being addressed by Feminists vary on their world view,
where they are in the world, ans the issues that exist where they are.
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Old 11-04-2015, 03:54 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Tree View Post

Who has historically, by and large, been men or a continuance of a patriarchal world view.

No, simply put.

But like I replied earlier, it's about rounding out the picture with a more inclusive view of knowledge.

Our cultural narrative is centred around male norms and mores.
Being 'feminist' entails asserting that a feminine view as equal
and just as valid for establishing a societal story about Us.

So... as I said 'Black Lives Matter' doesn't mean that 'All Other Lives Don't Matter'.... it's named so to focus on the problem area. In that case, the disproportionate number of Black People at the hands of Law Enforcement, whereas 'Feminism' addresses defining a feminine perspective in our Narrative.

See, what I disagree with you on is this whole notion that the dominating force in our society is somehow a 'male' thing.

I think that's a fucked up generalization. The dominant force in our society is people who are able to and choose to assert dominance, simply put. It's a physical truth that the people who are most able to assert dominance happen to be men. However, there are a myriad of different kinds of men, only a fraction of which have the capacity to assert dominion, an even smaller fraction of that fraction of which choose to use that ability to enforce their own world views on others, and an even smaller fraction of that fraction of which choose to enforce a world view that denigrates women.


You're equating 'male' with the a breed of human who favours a very specific method of dominion. And it happens to be that method which ensnares the world today because of its sheer effectiveness up to this point.


It's not 'men' who are who are in charge. It's assholes.
And I suspect the only reason there haven't been more female assholes in charge is because the male assholes can hit harder.
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:39 PM   #99 (permalink)
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I can relate to a lot of what she talks about from my time at university, and I'm sure its only more so now.


But like I said in an earlier post, I still take issue with calling these sorts of issues feminism. They may fly a flag that says feminism, and maybe it is, what do I know, but in my mind its not.

Feminism in my mind takes a female perspective on war, on the organization of the economy and the valuation of types of labor, on colonialism, on art, etc.
(and for Sir-Ex, 'female perspective' mean the perspective of 'the other')

Of course rape is wrong. Of course men and women should be paid equally for equal work. Given equal rights and opportunities to prove themselves, treated equally under the law, be politically enfranchised, etc. I think these ideas are firmly entrenched in western society thanks to the work of past feminists.

I do agree with Fiamengo that there seems to be a hyper-sensitivity on Canadian university campuses lately towards sex/gender-based issues that verges on fanaticism.
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everything in moderarion (especially moderation)
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:58 PM   #100 (permalink)
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I've posted this on yahooka before, but it seems to me that this thread could use it.



I can't find the original audio book version narrated by Bly

Okay, watching the video, its not the audio book I thought it was at all, but it deals with a lot of the same thoughts, and its with Bill Moyer so you know its legit.



'We used to receive teaching from our fathers. Now, he goes to work and all we receive is his temperament when he gets home at 5. At work, he [the father] has been humiliated at work. He has been in competition with other men, and he knows that he will not see the end of his work. He knows that his company is probably polluting Alaska. How do you think he feels when he gets home? And thats all your [the son] gonna get. And the same is true of women. Many people that we call 'angry feminists' are women who have only experienced the temperment of their fathers. They have never experienced the teaching. And their attacks on the patriarchy, are really a turned attack on the fact that they don't believe that there is any older males that have anything but this irritable temperament.' Robert Bly
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Last edited by Canuck Wisdom; 11-04-2015 at 06:44 PM.
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