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Old 11-05-2015, 05:39 PM   #121 (permalink)
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There was definitely a time when asians ruled the world. and herodotus claims a warrior queen defeated the great cyrus.

Its been millions of years, everyones had a chance to get their 'run the world' game up.
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Old 11-05-2015, 05:41 PM   #122 (permalink)
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k that made me laugh
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Old 11-05-2015, 05:43 PM   #123 (permalink)
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okay sure do whatever you want im fine with that

so what isnt a social construct? what is a social construct?
I hope you at least read what I posted....



While overly simplistic, this video might get you started on looking into your for yourself.





But hey..... this conversation, these words, these letters, this language....
It's a social construct.
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Old 11-05-2015, 05:55 PM   #124 (permalink)
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I can fairly comfortably assure you that there isn't any particular 'story' telling anyone to hit harder (not those assholes in power anyway, which is the 'they' we are talking about... these are people who make decisions based on the kind of results they get. Violence gets results, this is a fact). Physical dominance is something that plays out in almost every (if not every.. I can't think of an exception) mammalian species in the world...

That ain't no 'gender role'.. that's just plain natural order.
I'm starting to get lost in your 'they-assholes-hitting' example.
But I'll indulge here.


Speaking of any mammalian species, most animals, period, would like to get along with their business without any fight, or else they'd just beat themselves into a pulp instead of one retreating or moving along because they didn't figure it was worth the fight.



While we, humans, are capable of a vast array of other answers,
too often we tell ourselves that violence 'gets er done'.



Does fighting make win, or does the thing that fights too much eventually get killed off or injured, which allows the 'losers' to come back in and go about their business, be it food or mate?
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:04 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Tree View Post
Speaking of any mammalian species, most animals, period, would like to get along with their business without any fight, or else they'd just beat themselves into a pulp instead of one retreating or moving along because they didn't figure it was worth the fight.

Obviously it doesn't make sense to constantly fight everything all the time. The dominant members of animal societies don't do that either. They simply employ that dominance when and where it's required...



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Originally Posted by Sage Tree View Post
Does fighting make win, or does the thing that fights too much eventually get killed off or injured, which allows the 'losers' to come back in and go about their business, be it food or mate?

There are too many mammal species for me to count in which the most aggressive male is the one that mates the most, and thus produces the majority of genetic continuation.
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:08 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Tree View Post
While we, humans, are capable of a vast array of other answers,
too often we tell ourselves that violence 'gets er done'.

Whether you like it or not (and I don't like it myself), there has always been the threat of an entity willing to use violence to get what it needs.

We can produce all the food, freedom, and open-mindedness we could want, but if we weren't able to prevent it from being taken away from us, it wouldn't mean anything once something came around to take it away.
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:17 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Ex..... Can we get back on topic? This is sort of going on where fast.
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:22 PM   #128 (permalink)
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*Side bar*

Sir-Ex,

A year or so ago this conversation on feminism and post-modern thinking looked a lot different, and that says one thing to me...... that your University (the particular university) education has been doing you good. I wish you well on the continued journey.

(My Wife went there btw)


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Old 11-05-2015, 06:29 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sage Tree View Post
I'm starting to get lost in your 'they-assholes-hitting' example.
But I'll indulge here.


Speaking of any mammalian species, most animals, period, would like to get along with their business without any fight, or else they'd just beat themselves into a pulp instead of one retreating or moving along because they didn't figure it was worth the fight.



While we, humans, are capable of a vast array of other answers,
too often we tell ourselves that violence 'gets er done'.



Does fighting make win, or does the thing that fights too much eventually get killed off or injured, which allows the 'losers' to come back in and go about their business, be it food or mate?
most animals are cool until food is scarce or its time to fuck

Deer will bro out when it isnt rut season.

even giraffes will duke it out

Violent Giraffe Fight | Africa | Discovery
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:35 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Ex..... Can we get back on topic? This is sort of going on where fast.


This is a natural permutation of the topic. If it's going nowhere, that's the end of the discussion.

I'm trying to posit that dominance is an inescapable part of the natural world, which our society is a byproduct of. If feminism looks at the bigger picture, then feminism needs to address this.
And most recently you made some claims to refute this, which I countermanded using some pretty solid evidence.




As for your aside, my own opinion on this matter hasn't changed dramatically since I was a teenager. And it's not so much my University that's made me better at forming good arguments, it's been getting older and putting my own time and thought into things to better understand and explain things.

My Uni courses are exclusively technical. But the challenge that lies therein has helped make me more keen in general. But I gotta stress, it's not what University does to me. It's what I do with University.
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:50 PM   #131 (permalink)
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(that isn't to say I don't recognize the awesomeness that is university.. I'm super lucky to get to be a part of it)
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:54 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Ex View Post
This is a natural permutation of the topic. If it's going nowhere, that's the end of the discussion.

I'm trying to posit that dominance is an inescapable part of the natural world, which our society is a byproduct of. If feminism looks at the bigger picture, then feminism needs to address this.
And most recently you made some claims to refute this, which I countermanded using some pretty solid evidence.
I say this is getting off topic is because your "solid" evidence and tangenting off into what you perceive me to be saying is going no where.

Having a predominating male view in our cultural narrative doesn't mean that males so-called 'inherent dominance' has anything to do with it being the predominating view.

*Edit I want to add, that at no point did I use the word dominance/dominant before you brought it up

Quote:
As for your aside, my own opinion on this matter hasn't changed dramatically since I was a teenager. And it's not so much my University that's made me better at forming good arguments, it's been getting older and putting my own time and thought into things to better understand and explain things.

My Uni courses are exclusively technical. But the challenge that lies therein has helped make me more keen in general. But I gotta stress, it's not what University does to me. It's what I do with University.
I will say this Ex.... if you haven't changed your opinions.

How you EX-press it, sure as shit has changed.
And it's much more sympathetic than a year or so.


As for the University comment.... I didn't say it was warping your into something you aren't. I only said it was doing you good.

So however you choose to express that, I feel my comment allows the space for your own feelings on HOW it's been good for you, because regardless of how you use it, you've been exposed to it.... so I'd call that a mutual exchange of sorts, that still fits your feelings and mine.
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:08 PM   #133 (permalink)
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I want to establish whether or not dominance is an inescapable part of the natural world or not. When trying to develop an understanding of the world, of anything, it's best to try and start from a 'low' level abstraction, and build your way up.



Did you have any counter-arguments to what I said in post #125 or not?
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:16 PM   #134 (permalink)
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Quote:
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*Edit I want to add, that at no point did I use the word dominance/dominant before you brought it up
No, you didn't. However you did say this:
"Who has historically, by and large, been men or a continuance of a patriarchal world view"

in response to my statement:

"You're talking about the activity of questioning societal perspectives that have been designed and reinforced by the powers that be."




Which describes a correlation between 'the powers that be' (dominance) and the continuation of the patriarchal world view.


So clearly, the question of dominance is a pertinent issue..
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:28 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Like I said, that is your correlation, not mine.

I don't want to be semantic here, but I don't feel saying 'powers that be' or influencing forces warrants a discussion or creating a low level abstraction about the manner of dominance entailed in mammals fighting and fucking.
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:31 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Are you suggesting then that there is no correlation between dominance and the 'continuance of patriarchal world view' then?
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Old 11-05-2015, 09:46 PM   #137 (permalink)
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You know what sage, I think right now we've just kinda reached a point of like... you like to think about society. I like to think about physical mechanisms.


How does feminism fit into the physical mechanism??

lolol what am I talkin about?
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Old 11-06-2015, 01:45 AM   #138 (permalink)
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evolution wouldn't work without dominance across all species so i would say it's pretty damn natural and ingrained wherever you look on this planet

right and wrong are social constructs, when you start to throw social constructivism into it i would say the argument is definitely coming to a natural close..

Just my 2, much love
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Old 11-06-2015, 03:30 AM   #139 (permalink)
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right and wrong are social constructs, when you start to throw social constructivism into it i would say the argument is definitely coming to a natural close..

Just my 2, much love
I'd say in the expanse of trying to explain feminist thought, and that feminism isn't merely a discussion of maginalisation of the female person , one must talk about social constructivism.

In otherwords, imo, this thread has only been a discussion of social constructivism, by its various names. And that doesn't make it a stalemate.

Discussing right and wrong is one example to talk about the complexity of our language construct.... When it becomes a absurd weapon (ie. No one is right, this conversation doesn't even really exist) then I would say it's time to tap out. But I am not seeing that here.
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Old 11-06-2015, 03:32 AM   #140 (permalink)
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How does feminism fit into the physical mechanism??
Explain what you mean by physical mechanism and I'll get back to you.
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