HerbalAssassin

Sonic Void- those quotes are taken completely out of context.

I think a lot of people try and lose touch with the true meaning of their faith if it does not comply with their wants. If every person who called themself a Christian was a true Christian, about 1/3rd of this planet would choose to live in poverty for the benefit of the rest of the world! Yeshua taught us to give up all we own and follow Him, yet all these people who call themselves Christian would prefer to make money than follow their God. This is a terrible thing.

ted

[quote]Originally posted by HerbalAssassin:
<strong>Sonic Void- those quotes are taken completely out of context.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that was at least part of the point. There are an awful lot of every Christian sect's particular creeds that are based on some strained interpretation of snips taken out of context.

Your observation about how few believers actually follow the call Jesus made to serve others is accurate; but what is your idea of a 'true Christian'?

__________________
- me

GirlsHateMe_

It makes me laugh when people say that the Bible was writen by men so therefore its filled with contradictions and shit.

fact of the matter is that there arent any contradictions nor mess ups or any other crap like that...

You can go and pick and choose verses to make it look like your right but alot went on in that big book and everything works itself out...

But alas most of you ignorant fucks ever even picked the shit up so you just dont know.

Also I find it funny that alot of you spend your time trying to bosh and pick apart a belief that none of you hold and yet those of us who do belive choose to respect and revere others beliefs...that just shows me how fucking stupid all of you really are.

Oh and to say that Jesus wasnt a Christian is the biggest peice of horse shit ive ever herd...

TO BE CHRISTIAN MEANS TO BE CHRIST LIKE....YOUR TELLING ME THAT JESUS HIMSELF WASNT CHRIST LIKE....man the stupidity on this board makes me sick.

Stop talking about shit none of you know anything about.

DrChronic

its a well known fact that jesus was jewish, i would have thought something stated so clearly in the bible wouldnt be up for debate among such "educated people"

__________________
SUCK MY SOPPING CUNT

peon1313

Ok. First, I'd like to say that there is a misunderstanding going on here that needs clearing up. The term Christian does mean Christlike, but that term was hijacked long ago by a group that has been anything but Christlike. GirlsHateMe, this is what people meant when they say Jesus wasn't a Christian. He wasn't one of these fundamentalists running around yelling, "Do not taste, Do not touch!"like those in the world (Col 2:21) in a 3 piece suit with a nice haircut, and jewlery. The man Jesus was born a Jew and lived and died as a jew. We read he was known as "glutton and a drunkard and the friend of sinners" (Matt 11:19, Luke :34). Christ or the Logos is an eternal archetypal 'being.'(John 1) It has no national or religious distinction. It is in all things, it permeates and fills all things, and in it we live and move and have our being. (Acts 17:28 (where PAul also acknowledges the truth in some gentile poet-philosophers.)) So we know then that the Son of Man, used everywhere else in the bible to denote an ordinary human male, Jesus of Nazereth has been described as a Jewish man who was filled with Christ and lived his life in direct contact and display of the Word, Thought, Reason, or Logos of God. This was the life he manifested.

The most convincing evidence in my book holds that the earliest Christians were quite possibly the Gnostics. In these Gnostic groups men and women were completely equal, individual revelation was stressed, they lived communaly with common food and property (if they owned any at all) and were basically free spirits who showed love to all and espoused esoteric teachings in line with Jesus' more cryptic and spiritual message. Around the mid to end of the second century they encountered the wrath of the orthodox church of Rome who had strayed into a flat literal interpretation of certain gospels and banned all those that weren't in line with thier system. These include The Gospel of Thomas a book of sayings from Jesus with no narrative) and The Gospel of Phillip (which inferred a romantic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdelene), etc. A collection of these were found within the same couple of years of the Dead Sea Scrolls, these were monumental discoveries because all we've heard of them up to then was from the writings of their detractors mainly Iraneus and Tertullian. The Church then put together a canon that excluded SOME inspired documents and included SOME forgeries...mainly in some of Paul's later letters. Here's what an early literalist wrote with disgust about the "shameless" gnostics:

"They eat whenever they are hungry. They drink when they are thirsty, at any hour of the day, without regard for the proscribed fasts. They spend all their time doing nothing and sleeping. In summertime, when night falls, they lie down to sleep in the open air, men and women together, and they say this is of no consequence."
Sounds kind of nice...sounds kind of like Jesus.


A massive campaign was spearheaded by the early Roman fathers, Tertullian, Iraneus and many others to eradicate the scourge of Gnosticism (Christianity)...by any means necessary. Murder, slander, you name it. Tertullian was a woman hater who converted to Motanism (sp?)which is a form of Gnosticism before he died. So you see it is very easy for a group to be hijacked. All it takes is orginization which the orthdox church had and the gnostic church avoided.

And you will know them by their fruits. (matt 7:16) If the fruits are murder, slander, war, rape, greed, decadence, conrol, etc...They're not Christian. So who is? I submit it was the gnostics. This is not to say that the orthodox church only showed those fruits, it has done great charity as well at times. This is however usually accompanied by the return of a more spiritual reading of scripture.

Again this is all what I've concluded based on my own personal research, which even though I'm only 22, I consider pretty important to my walk as a man and a follower of Christ myself.

As far as the contridictions go? They're clear as day. Does this give me a problem, not really, though it has caused me to question Yahweh's relationship to the Godhead. I do believe the bible was written by men and inspired by God. Inspired by God not written by Him. I can write a song inspired by Anna Kournikova but she didn't write it. I did. Because I don't interpret the scripture literally does it mean its not true? Of course not. For me it makes it more true and "it is the power of God." (words of Jesus the verse escapes me.) Sometimes the literal and spiritual interpretations ebb and flow and come together and sometimes they are opposite. This also allows me to discern which parts are from man and which are from God. its pretty easy actually. This also makes it permissible to acknowlege the inspiration of other culture's truths such as those of Buddhism and Hinduism. They do also contain some truth tainted by man.

Again, this is my opinion which is what this post is about so everyone know I'm not trying to state FACT but only what i have found to be likely to be facts. Its enough to convince me and i can get pretty skeptical.
jc

__________________
The Universe itself can be called a myth, since bodies and material objects are apparent in it, while souls and intellects are concealed. -- Sallustius

oliver.sawtell

[quote]Originally posted by soniCVoid:
<strong>So what am I? I practice the type of meditation Buddha taught (vispanna <a href="http://www.dhamma.org).." target="_blank">www. dhamma.org)..</a> I believe in what Jesus said.. I follow the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path? what am I?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I belive that makes you open minded!! Out of interest, if you belive in Biblical scripture as fact. Do you accept there is a GOD? even though the opposite is true as the basis for what buddha taught (which is the defintion of "buddism").

A "buddist" is someone who is following the 8 fold path, with the aim of reaching nibbana (not necessarily within this lifetime). Nothing more nothing less. Further up the chain are monks and nuns. Buddists who are not Monks or Nuns are "Lay" buddists.

Hope that helps!

Question, how do you KNOW what Jesus said, did he write a gospel? Do you BELIVE everthing that the press writes? and the slant they take? to take literally any writing which is writen by a third person, in the first person is largely mistaken, would you not say?

ted

[quote]Originally posted by peon1313:
<strong>
As far as the contridictions go? They're clear as day. </strong><hr></blockquote>

That claim seems odd - the contradictions are anything but clear, and have been the cause of the constant, frequent splitting and re-splitting and re-re-splitting of Christianity into uncountable sects. However, *if* I understand you, these contradictions aren't really a refutation of the messages of the Bible (and remember, it's an atheist saying this) because those contradictions really come from life. Life, as opposed to our tiny ideas of it, can be and is filled with mutually exclusive things; it's commonplace to find both unmoveable object and irresistable force, as impossible as that might seem.

Pretty good response, peon. (That sounds so weird; 'nice concepts, lowlife!') A litle heavy on the mysticism, but then what we're discussing is pretty mysterious. Just remember - as humans we have no choice but to see what we expect to see. Being guilty of having done so isn't much of a crime. For any of us.

__________________
- me

peon1313

[quote] That claim seems odd - the contradictions are anything but clear, and have been the cause of the constant, frequent splitting and re-splitting and re-re-splitting of Christianity into uncountable sects. <hr></blockquote>

I think some are more than clear, while others can appear to be contridictions (or not) depending on your perspective. To me, most the ones that SonicVoid listed have always been toughies. That's not to say they or the entire book is worthless. Far from it! It's true these have caused split after split after split but its important to remember that there were almost as many Christian sects as there are today in the first couple of decades after Jesus' suppossed death. (I add suppossed for those who don't believe.) It was like a freeforall back then too! People have this idea of ONE church that split into many when in reality its always been a bunch of different groups with different views. You can find evidence of the disciples disagreeing with each other in spiritual and earthly matters and really see it in the whole James versus Paul thing.

[quote] However, *if* I understand you, these contradictions aren't really a refutation of the messages of the Bible (and remember, it's an atheist saying this) because those contradictions really come from life. Life, as opposed to our tiny ideas of it, can be and is filled with mutually exclusive things; it's commonplace to find both unmoveable object and irresistable force, as impossible as that might seem.
<hr></blockquote>
Yeah, in a nutshell. like i said some of them have caused me to do a doubletake and some of them, i embrace, but regardless, you have to admit, they are there. I mean you can read it with your own eyes.

[quote] Pretty good response, peon. (That sounds so weird; 'nice concepts, lowlife!') A litle heavy on the mysticism, but then what we're discussing is pretty mysterious. Just remember - as humans we have no choice but to see what we expect to see. Being guilty of having done so isn't much of a crime. For any of us.

<hr></blockquote>
Thanks. I'm not sure how to take that last disclaimer though... I didn't mean to imply that seeing what you expect to see is wrong, if i did. Like i said these are my own thoughts and if you don't believe in God or Buddha or Krishna, I can't and wouldn't try to make you. I personally find it offensive when someone tells me my beliefs are wrong, thus i don't try to change others beliefs. Beliefs are what we hold nearest and dearest inside. For me to tell someone to change that, well that takes some balls. I prefer to just let Life do its thing.
jc

__________________
The Universe itself can be called a myth, since bodies and material objects are apparent in it, while souls and intellects are concealed. -- Sallustius

ted

[quote]Originally posted by peon1313:
<strong> I personally find it offensive when someone tells me my beliefs are wrong . . .</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well you're just plain wrong about that!!!

(Sorry. I had to do that. You see how it is. Guys' gotta do what a guys' gotta do. The devil made me do it. Ahahahahahahahahahah !)

- "Wow! He wrote out his Evil Laugh!" - Arthur, from The Tick.

__________________
- me

soniCVoid

[quote]Originally posted by Doktor Jenoli:
<strong>

I belive that makes you open minded!! Out of interest, if you belive in Biblical scripture as fact. Do you accept there is a GOD? even though the opposite is true as the basis for what buddha taught (which is the defintion of "buddism").

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I accept the every-present existance of the "energy" of life - of the universe.

I believe that the absolute of universal, personal consciousness is God.

However this is not the be-all and end-all of God. The Bible repeatedly said that God does not have a human form. I believe God, ultimately, is beyond concept or form .. the "Alpha and the Omega".

As soon as you say conception X is God then you're limiting God and since God is I AM, the statement is contradictory.

Is God the Buddhist idea of reality? He is.
Is God the Hindu version of reality? He is.

This falls into line with what Buddha taught.

If He wasn't, then he couldn't be the Alpha and The Omega.

[quote]
<strong>


A "buddist" is someone who is following the 8 fold path, with the aim of reaching nibbana (not necessarily within this lifetime). Nothing more nothing less. Further up the chain are monks and nuns. Buddists who are not Monks or Nuns are "Lay" buddists.

Hope that helps!

</strong><hr></blockquote>

"Technically, we become a Buddhist when we decide to take refuge in the Three Jewels, and when we generate bodhichitta, which is known as compassion, the altruistic mind, or our good heart" .. "The point is that as a result of your own reflection, even without a master, you become fully convinced of the validity of the Buddha, the Dharma and Sangha as the true ultimate objects of refuge, and that is when you actually become a Buddhist" - The Dalai Lama, "The 4 Noble Truths"

He doesn't seem to mention "lay" Buddhist. I'll go with his definition.

[quote]
<strong>
Question, how do you KNOW what Jesus said, did he write a gospel? Do you BELIVE everthing that the press writes? and the slant they take? to take literally any writing which is writen by a third person, in the first person is largely mistaken, would you not say?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The truth shouts at me in every moment of every day. I experience the truth within myself and build that into my perception of reality.

That's my only form of verification. Material which comes from others (eg Buddha, Jesus etc) inspires me but are just intellectual understandings of concepts. True spirituality is when these concepts are experienced and then become a real and a useful part of life.

soniCVoid

[quote]Originally posted by GirlsHateMe:
<strong>It makes me laugh when people say that the Bible was writen by men so therefore its filled with contradictions and shit.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
<SNIP>
[quote]
<strong>
But alas most of you ignorant fucks ever even picked the shit up so you just dont know.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
<SNIP>
[quote]
<strong>
TO BE CHRISTIAN MEANS TO BE CHRIST LIKE....YOUR TELLING ME THAT JESUS HIMSELF WASNT CHRIST LIKE....man the stupidity on this board makes me sick.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>

From someone swearing about being "Christ-like". Let's compare his posting with what Jesus recommended:

"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Jesus

"To show partiality is not good
Because for a peice of bread a man will transgress." - Proverbs 28:21

"He who is devoid of wisdom despises his neighbour,but a man of understanding holds his peace" - Proverbs 11:12

"He who is slow to show wrath has great understanding But he who is impulsive exalts folly" - Proverbs 11:29

"He is slow to show anger is better than the
mighty, And he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city"
- Proverbs 16:32

Now that's what I believe in

soniCVoid

[quote]Originally posted by HerbalAssassin:
<strong>Sonic Void- those quotes are taken completely out of context.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I know. I wasn't making a philosophical argument regarding them - I just wanted to add some quotes to argue about (fuel for the discussion).

Beliefs can't be blind. If you're a Christian who is familar with the true meaning behind the message of the Bible and Jesus then I have the upmost respect for you.

However I feel that a lot of people go through the motions without questioning the various doctrines. This leads to a lesser understanding of the true meaning. You said it very well when you refered to "true Christians".

Maybe, for some people, those quotes make them more interested in finding the true context of such verses

oliver.sawtell

[quote]Originally posted by soniCVoid:
<strong>True spirituality is when these concepts are experienced and then become a real and a useful part of life.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nice response