mysticwolf

Reagan,
As to Soulmans personal knowledge of the scriptures, I cannot attest. I can say that as a Christian myself for the last twenty one years, I do know a fair ammount, not that I would consider myself a necessarily astute biblical scholar. As to the cannabis plant specifically, like many things, the scriptures are silent. The Genesis account of creation however does indicate that God created all the seed bearing plants and also indicates that he found all His creation to be "very good". Jini has done a good job of looking at the scriptures on the C4C web-site. If you are truly intersted, I would recommend that you check it out at christiansforcannabi s.com

Reagan

[quote]Originally posted by mysticwolf:
<strong>Reagan,
As to Soulmans personal knowledge of the scriptures, I cannot attest. I can say that as a Christian myself for the last twenty one years, I do know a fair ammount, not that I would consider myself a necessarily astute biblical scholar. As to the cannabis plant specifically, like many things, the scriptures are silent. The Genesis account of creation however does indicate that God created all the seed bearing plants and also indicates that he found all His creation to be "very good". Jini has done a good job of looking at the scriptures on the C4C web-site. If you are truly intersted, I would recommend that you check it out at christiansforcannabi s.com</strong><hr></blockquote>

well what about cocaine? or heroin? god created this too. are these ok by god also?

__________________
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"Who feels it, knows it..."

smokin_ky

Well, both cocaine and heroin are unnatural products. for instance, to make cocaine, at least what is bought on the streets, you have to refine it and mess around with it..not like weed. as far as heroin goes,, its the same thing, its not the actual opium plant that does the damage, its the way it is refined and what is done to it in the process

__________________
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Soulman

Cola said,
[quote]I can't speak for everyone on this board, but I'll tell you right now that I've been alienated by so-called Christians since I was 5 years old, simply for being and wanting to be an individual. I'm pretty sure there are others here who are like me. I've been lucky enough to experience people from just about every major religion that exists on this planet, and even some of the lesser known religions such as Wicca, Satanism, and Paganism in general. I've found Christians to be the most intolerant of any of these sects.<hr></blockquote>
Roger that. For the most part, I agree with you. Depends on what you mean by “intolerant.” Naturally, if the God of the Bible condemns certain practices (witchcraft, homosexuality, etc.), those who follow (or try to follow) the teachings of the Bible are bound to take a dim view of such practices. No one should be surprised by that. But being intolerant of condemned “practices,” and being intolerant of other “people” is, to my mind, two different things. I can only speak for myself. I accept all people for who they are as individuals. This doesn’t mean I have to agree with them, and vice versa. As far as I can tell, all religions, including those you mentioned, have their own set of “rules” and are “exclusive” in their own ways.
[quote]It's also my opinion that for the most part, religion serves as a mental crutch for the masses and nothing more.<hr></blockquote>
Well, I would argue that everyone has a “religion” (a source of final moral authority defining good and evil), so I guess that means we all use “mental crutches” (“spiritual” crutches might be a better way to put it). The value of a good crutch has been vastly underestimated. Depends on what your “crutch” is.
[quote]It's my opinion that you'll likely have to prove yourself as an individual worthy of kind words on any message board pertaining to culture that is well-known to be hated by the majority of your religion.<hr></blockquote>
I’m not really looking for kind words for myself. I didn’t feel picked on or singled out because of my religion. It is the OVERALL nasty attitude expressed by, and toward, just about EVRYONE in here (not just in this thread) that I can’t quite “grok.” I’m over-generalizing a little and trying to take the “nut” factor into account, but that’s been my first impression.

There IS intelligent life in here. Your points are valid. Thanks for engaging.

Soulman

Cola di Rienza

[quote]Thanks for engaging<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for not spouting out the typical spiele about Hell and what not. I know there are fanatics in any religion, and you haven't retorted any difference of opinion with a bunch of psychotic fire and brimstone rambling, so you're a-ok in my book.

I believe I'm naturally biased because at a young age I went from an environment governed by an atheist ex-hippy to an environment governed by a lifelong fundamentalist in an area where it's common for people to handle snakes at church and dunk children in the river and what not. An environment where people were afraid to live, and afraid to enjoy life.

All of my grandparents were rabid fundamentalists. One grandmother used to tell me there were demons in her house and she'd freak out and speak in tongues and all sorts of nonsense. It wasn't supernatural though, she was just nuts. She went through many, many rounds of therapy where they'd shock her brain to the point that she'd be in a walking sleep, and that didn't help. She used to make me throw my toys in the garbage can because they were sent by Satan. I remember at one point where my older brother had pretty much the entire set of original Star Wars toys from back in the 80s, even the large spaceships and what not, and crunch crunch they went into the garbage can. Darth Vader was Satan. Everything was Satan.

Go figure

mysticwolf

Hey Guys,
I must say that there is actually some good discussion going on here now that we have cleared up the BS. As to your question about cocaine and heroin Reagan I would first posit that in and of themselves the cocoa plant and the opium poppy are indeed God's creation and he called them both "very good". However, what mankind has done with them hasn't always been so good. There is little doubt that either of them taken to excess are highly destructive. I havemet people in my life who abused both , some were able to gain control, others are pushing up daisies. The same can be said for alcohol. I can also honestly say that I know people who smoke too much weed, as it ends up controlling thier lives. To me the key is moderation, I'm not sure that that is posssible with heroin or cocaine, but then again I've never used either, so I don't know.
Smokin_ky also makes a point worth considering. It is true that there are serious chemical processes involved in the production of cocaine and heroin which add a certain degree of "un-naturelesness(?) to the process. Cannabis merely requires drying and ingestion as do mushrooms.
You do indeed ask some valid questions and raise valid points. It's good that we prompt one another to think outside our own little box every now and then. In the meantime, I remain both a Christian and a cannabis user, I personally don't find a conflict there.

mysticwolf

Hey Guys,
I must say that there is actually some good discussion going on here now that we have cleared up the BS. As to your question about cocaine and heroin Reagan I would first posit that in and of themselves the cocoa plant and the opium poppy are indeed God's creation and he called them both "very good". However, what mankind has done with them hasn't always been so good. There is little doubt that either of them taken to excess are highly destructive. I havemet people in my life who abused both , some were able to gain control, others are pushing up daisies. The same can be said for alcohol. I can also honestly say that I know people who smoke too much weed, as it ends up controlling thier lives. To me the key is moderation, I'm not sure that that is posssible with heroin or cocaine, but then again I've never used either, so I don't know.
Smokin_ky also makes a point worth considering. It is true that there are serious chemical processes involved in the production of cocaine and heroin which add a certain degree of "un-naturelesness(?) to the process. Cannabis merely requires drying and ingestion as do mushrooms.
You do indeed ask some valid questions and raise valid points. It's good that we prompt one another to think outside our own little box every now and then. In the meantime, I remain both a Christian and a cannabis user, I personally don't find a conflict there.

Soulman

Yo, Mystic!

You said,
[quote]On another subject, I too have found just as great a degree of intolerance amongst "pagans" as others claim to have found amongst "Christians."<hr ></blockquote>
This is the damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t dilemma which makes Christianity an easy target. There is an obvious intolerance of Christianity by the non-monotheistic religions which, even when admitted, is almost always excused. Islam and Judaism have the same “intolerance” problem, but are rarely singled out. As a Christian, the double-standard of pagans accusing Christians of “intolerance” with one hand while bashing and belittling our beliefs with the other is a little annoying, but it comes with the territory. Most Christians act like pious, goody-two-shoes snobs. We have “earned” the world’s disdain. The medium IS the message. This truism applies to the message of the Gospel as well as to everything else. WE are the message. Our “message” is dismissed because we come-off like a bunch of up-tight, irrelevant, small-minded boobs. Whatta surprise.
[quote]It seems to me that if we ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CANNABIS, ITS USE, decriminalization, legalization or just tolerance then we all need to drop our judgmental attitudes and work together. That seems to be really tough for some folks.<hr></blockquote>
I agree. For me, Cannabis is a personal liberty issue (that is, what the God of the Bible does not explicitly forbid He implicitly allows), as well as a social justice issue. We may not all agree on the Christian “rationale” for drug-law reform or personal Cannabis use, but we don’t have to. We all know an “injustice” when we see one, and that ought to be enough.

Thanks.

Soulman

mysticwolf

Hey Soulman,
You're insight is ,again, excellent. We indeed are the message. We flesh out the Gospel to the world and we often do a really shitty job of it. Thankfully, our lack doesn't negate the truth, but it does make it very difficult for many too see, come close to and relate to that truth. Thanks for your contributions. I would strongly encourage you to get involved on the C4C list, perhaps we can stimulate some spirited discussion there as well.
To all, thanks for the good (for the most part) discussion. This thread seems to me to be proof that there is indeed intelligent life out there!

Soulman

Reagan,

Peace.

You said,
[quote]Since you're still here Soulman, I think I'll make you useful. Christians for Cannabis, eh? Please explain to me your understanding of God's word and His feelings on marijuana. Eagerly awaiting...<hr></blockquote>
Well, it’s always nice to be made “useful.” I basically agree with Mystic in that everything God made was made “good.” Not just good in a “practical” sense, but “morally” good. Some Christians have tried to argue that after the Fall “certain” plants “became” bad (like Cannabis, poison mushrooms, Belladonna, etc.), but the argument is not very persuasive. Beyond the point that God made all things “good,” as a Christian, the bottom-line is God’s “law.” That is, what constitutes “lawful behavior.”

As I mentioned in my post to Mystic, what the God of the Bible does not explicitly forbid He implicitly allows. That’s the way biblical law works. In other words, if He ain’t agin’ it, He’s for it. It’s a little more complicated than that, because the Bible also says that what’s “lawful” is not always “edifying” (or good for you). Lawful behavior implies responsible behavior. Therefore, irresponsible Cannabis use would qualify as unlawful behavior, the same way irresponsible alcohol use, or an irresponsible intake of Big Macs, would qualify as unlawful behavior. Alcohol and Big Macs are “lawful,” but habitual drunkenness and eating yourself to death is not.

Soulman

Soulman

Cola,

Don’t throw out the barrel because of a few bad apples. Nothing can be said or done to un-do your experiences with (with all due respect to your grandparents) lunatic-fringe Christianity. Obviously your grandmother had (or has) some serious problems. I’m truly sorry for that, both for her and the influence this bad experience has had on you. If this was the only example of Christianity, and accurately represented Christianity, I’d join you on the next boat to anywhere.

Fortunately, it’s not.

Soulman

Soulman

Reagan asked,
[quote]Well, what about cocaine? Or heroin? God created this too. Are these ok by God also?<hr></blockquote>
I’m not so sure about the naturally-occurring vs. man-made distinction, but to my mind it comes back to the personal responsibility issue. True, cocaine and heroin are derivatives of naturally-occurring, God-made-it-all-good plant-life, but cocaine and heroin are also physically addictive, which falls (in principle) into the habitually drunk category, which God condemns.

Just because God made these things and declared them “good,” it doesn’t follow that all things are good for us, especially taking into account the fact that we are born with a “sin” nature, predisposing us, in a way, to abuse even those things God originally made “good.” They may be good for one thing (short-term medicinal purposes), and bad for another (getting high).

I would say that cocaine and heroin are “lawful,” in and of themselves, but experience tells us that cocaine and heroin are “dangerous,” as well. It may be lawful to shoot-up heroin once, but heroin “addiction” is definitely not lawful.

Soulman

mysticwolf

Soulman,
Once again you have made some excellent points. Eating is not only "lawful" if you will, but necessary for the sustainment of life. Gluttony, on the other hand is neither "lawful", profitable or healthy. The key as you have rightly pointed out is moderation. Even cannabis use is at times hard to "moderate" and that is the reason that at times I will go for several weeks without ingesting any, as a way to discipline and moderate my use.

jini

In reference to the intolerance of non believers, on this board, well, when I first started hanging out here, I expected it. After all, the republican religious right declared the 'war on drugs' in the first place and these are the folks they declared war on. Even in light of this very few people have been hostile towards me because of my beliefs and this is pretty much my favorite community on the web.

In reference to the CforC message boards being kind of quiet, before they were moved to Drug Policy Central, the conversations were going pretty steady. It is just going to take some time to get them going again. I myself haven't been able to participate because there has been a lot of CforC stuff to take care of recently.

I don't know anything about cocaine and heroin, but what I have been saying in recent interviews when this question has come up is that I think they should be completely decriminalized and regulated for use. As smokinky and mystic pointed out, there is a huge difference between cannabis and cocaine and heroin, but at least in a regulated market users would be protected bad stuff and that is what it should be about.


And finally about some plants being "bad" after the fall. There is no scriptural basis for this opinion based on Genesis 9:1-3. God tells Noah that he is giving him all the animals for his use, just as he gave the green plants. If there was a time that God was going to revoke the use of any of the green plants, he would have included it here. He didn't.

Sorry for the lengthy post, thanks for readin'...:*)

love and peace,
-jini

__________________
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http://www.christiansforcannabis.com

Soulman

Jini,

I wish I would have been smart enough to use that verse (Gen 9:3) in the mini-debate I was having on another board before Big Brother locked the thread. I agree. FTR (For the Record?), the anti-Cannabis Christian tried to argue that since Gen 1:29 occurred BEFORE the Fall (the giving of plant-life to man), and since not ALL plant-life is edible TODAY (poison mushrooms, etc.) then obviously something “happened” to make “certain” plants inedible. Thus, Gen 1:29, he/she argued, “no longer applies.”

Phooey. Gen 9:3 was the obvious come-back.

Thanks.

Soulman

Reagan

so let me get this straight soulman. you say god thinks pot is ok cuz he made it. and you say cocaine and heroin are ok, because god made them too, but not to abuse. so i ask you this, if you smoke pot every day are you not abusing it? i assume you think snorting coke everyday is abusing it. so where does it specify that pot is ok and diferent from these other drugs? im not trying to sound like an asshole, i am just interested. thanks for your reply.

__________________
"In reggae it is possible to dance and contemplate revolution, anger at oppression, the cruelties of life, the beauty of sexuality, the humour of human existence - all at the same time."
Kwame Dawes

"Who feels it, knows it..."

Soulman

Reagan,

You said,
[quote]so let me get this straight soulman. you say god thinks pot is ok cuz he made it. and you say cocaine and heroin are ok, because god made them too, but not to abuse.<hr></blockquote>
I’m not claiming to know exactly what God “thinks.” He did say, however, that everything that He made was “good,” so that much we DO know. Cocaine and heroin are man-manipulated derivatives of the coca and poppy plant. God made coca and poppy plants, but He didn’t make them as “cocaine” and “heroin.” He made all the chemicals man uses to make gun-powder, too, but that doesn’t mean He thinks it’s okay to go around shooting everybody. Whatever God made that was good, man can abuse and screw up.
[quote]so i ask you this, if you smoke pot every day are you not abusing it?<hr></blockquote>
That’s a judgment call. How MUCH pot? Is it affecting your productivity? Are you buying pot instead of paying your bills and keeping food on the table? What does your significant other think about it? Is it causing problems with your family or at work? Is pot the most important thing in your life? If pot is abusing you, you are abusing pot. A lot of people have a glass of wine every day with dinner. I don’t think they’re “abusing” alcohol. It’s a personal thing.
[quote]i assume you think snorting coke everyday is abusing it.<hr></blockquote>
I do.
[quote]so where does it specify that pot is ok and diferent from these other drugs?<hr></blockquote>
The Bible doesn’t have to say that pot is different from cocaine for it to be true. Cocaine is physically addictive, pot is not. The Bible speaks specifically to certain issues (murder, theft, adultery, drunkenness), and establishes “general principles” from there. The “general drug principle” regulating the use of drugs is alcohol. It doesn’t matter what the “drug” is. The word “drunk” is used 48 times in the Bible. In each and every case where “drunk” is used to mean “blitzed,” it is portrayed as a bad thing. “And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit” (Eph 5:18). It doesn’t say NEVER drink wine; it just says “don’t be drunk.” In principle, drug addiction is the same thing as habitual drunkenness. If we’re so wacked out on pot we can’t function, that’s a problem, but it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with pot. It’s a personal responsibility issue. How often do you smoke?
[quote]im not trying to sound like an asshole, i am just interested. thanks for your reply.<hr></blockquote>
I don’t think you’re an asshole. And you’re welcome. Thanks for engaging.

Soulman

Reagan

ok, i understand your point about the cocaine/heroin matter. but, you say it is ok to drink, but not to get drunk? so that would mean its ok to smoke pot, but not get stoned. i understand the bibe doesn't actually specify marijuana, but the fact is that everyone interprets the book differently, so i guess we never will really know till we die. how much pot do i smoke? not much, kinda depends what i do. depends how much money i have, or who i am around. its usually like 5 days a week, sometimes less if i have important things to do. i dont smoke all day either, just like a couple hits at the end of the day when im done with all my responsibilites. i used to smoke everyday multiple times a day, and realized thats just not for me. thanks for your replies.

__________________
"In reggae it is possible to dance and contemplate revolution, anger at oppression, the cruelties of life, the beauty of sexuality, the humour of human existence - all at the same time."
Kwame Dawes

"Who feels it, knows it..."

Soulman

Reagan,

Hope you don’t mind running with this a bit longer. I’m trying to think this through. You said,
[quote]ok, i understand your point about the cocaine/heroin matter. but, you say it is ok to drink, but not to get drunk?<hr></blockquote>
It’s definitely okay to drink and not get drunk, biblically. But there’s a difference between getting “drunk” and getting a happy little buzz-on.

“He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, and vegetation for the service of man, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine that makes glad the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread which strengthens man's heart” (Psa 104:14, 15).

But let’s be honest. Christians who drink sometimes drink too much. That’s not really the issue. The occasional, infrequent “drunk” is one thing. Habitual drunkenness is another. God knows our hearts. He knows whether or not we’re habitual drunkards, or just having a good time and howling at the moon a little. God isn’t a prude. He wants us to ENJOY His creation. It always comes back to personal responsibility.
[quote]so that would mean its ok to smoke pot, but not get stoned.<hr></blockquote>
Which we both know is impossible. It’s possible to drink alcohol without getting “drunk” (or being a drunkard), but NOT possible to smoke pot without getting “stoned.” The problem is, being drunk and being stoned are not necessarily equivalent. A lot of Christians rationalize drinking alcohol, arguing that you can drink alcohol without getting drunk, which is true. The problem with pot, they say, is that you go from being “straight” to being “stoned,” which, to them, means you go from being straight to being “drunk” on pot, with nothing in between.

I dunno. When I get stoned, it’s nothing like being “drunk.” I suppose if you smoked enough pot you could equate it with being drunk, but as you and I know it’s not that clear-cut. Just because you’re a little “stoned,” it doesn’t mean you’re “drunk.” Being a drunkard and being a pot-head are probably equivalent. “Stoned,” I think, is not as precise a word as “drunk.” When non-pot smokers say “stoned,” I think they mean “wasted.” I would say it’s okay to smoke pot as long as you’re not a “pot-head”, or smoking pot just to get “wasted,” the same way it’s okay to drink alcohol as long as you’re not a “drunk.” I’m rationalizing a little, but a little common sense goes a long way.
[quote]i understand the bible doesn't actually specify marijuana, but the fact is that everyone interprets the book differently, so i guess we never will really know till we die.<hr></blockquote>
I don’t think “dying” is necessary in order to know what the Bible “really” teaches about marijuana, alcohol, or anything else. Unfortunately, a lot of people see what they want to see. “Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2 Cor 3:17)

Re: your smoking habits, I’m pretty much the same way. Nine, ten o’clock, I’m all caught up on stuff, put a movie on, couple tokes, oh, yeah... I don’t even roll joints anymore. Too expensive, and I just don’t need that much. One toke wonder here. You got any kids? Now that’s an issue I’d like to discuss. First I hid it from my folks, now I’m hiding it from my kids. Wicked cycle…

Sorry for being so chatty. Guess I need to talk about it.

Soulman

SmoknRidn

Soulman, Ive been reading your posts and Ive been impressed with what Ive read. I dont know where I stand on some issues (smoking, getting stoned) but you make very good arguments and references. Youve handled yourself well and I wish more "christians" could act and react the same way you did.

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