Religion and kids - Page 2

JcP · 10-31-2007, 07:00 PM

my parents never raised me remotely religious. Not atheist either (which is a religion, imo).

And now I'm very spiritual and religious.

my personal opinion: raising your children to "be something" is not a good idea.

Parents nowadays raise kids to BE ATHLETES. To BE CHRISTIANS. To BE DOCTORS.

What about raising your kids to be themselves? If your kid wants to go to church, take her. If she wants to go to synagogue, take her. If she wants to stay at home and make brownies, do that.

I can't tell you how many of my friends have gone through serious issues around age 25 when they realize that what they were TAUGHT TO WANT isn't what they want.

my best friend in high school was a book-smart genius. We went to one of the top private schools in the country, and while I did well myself, he got Straight A's.

Long story short, after going to Princeton for 2 years, he had a mental breakdown, realized he'd been living FOR HIS PARENTS and now he's doing what he loves: playing golf.

Is he good? Not really. But he's happy.

Moral of the story: leave your kids the FUCK ALONE. They are NOT YOU.

If you love them, you'll help them be what they want to be. If you make them what you want to be, that's the antithesis of love. That's subconsciously saying, "if you want my love, you must be X."

and then we all wonder why kids are killing each other and doing serious amounts of drugs at 15. I'm all in favor of drug usage...but when its a conscious usage. When it's a 'choice,' not an escape.

So how do you raise your kids? I suggest answering their questions by helping them find their own answers.

highanddry · 10-31-2007, 09:19 PM

I'm going to tell my kids that they were born in the ground like trees and we plucked them from the earth. Hopefully it will be years before they are corrected which will make for an interesting perspective on life.

Quote:

Not atheist either (which is a religion, imo)

Thats a good point by the way, Atheists are just as obnoxious as religious people

Quote:

and then we all wonder why kids are killing each other and doing serious amounts of drugs at 15.

I'm SURE this is the result of toomuch parenting.. HAHAHA. Parents have an obligation to guide their children and provide the best education for them. A kid who gets bad grades may well have a learning disorder or anxiety (as I found out pretty late). If your dumb ass kid doesn't want to be a lawyer then I agree that you should let them run the local Wal-Mart, but who's to say that over parenting leads to drug abuse? sounds like a huge assumption based on one "study" done by... you

JcP · 11-01-2007, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highanddry

I'm SURE this is the result of toomuch parenting.. HAHAHA. Parents have an obligation to guide their children and provide the best education for them. A kid who gets bad grades may well have a learning disorder or anxiety (as I found out pretty late). If your dumb ass kid doesn't want to be a lawyer then I agree that you should let them run the local Wal-Mart, but who's to say that over parenting leads to drug abuse? sounds like a huge assumption based on one "study" done by... you

back up. who said it was over-parenting? I said that parents trying to make their kids into something they are not leads to the kids getting fucked up.

It's not about too much parenting, it's about the wrong KIND of parenting. there is a massive difference, so please take note of that before responding again.

Parents have an obligation to guide their children and provide the best education for them. That IS NOT SYNONYMOUS with forcing their children down a path and providing them the education they want their child to have.

My brother FUCKING SUCKED at school. AWFUL. AAAWWWFFUUULLL.

But when he picks up an instrument he gets intense and kicks ass. In the course of two years in junior high school he picked up and learned the guitar, the keyboard, the alto sax, the clarinet, and the...other sax, I forget what it's called. And not just "I can play mary had a little lamb" learned. He could play some hardcore shit on all of them.

and yet he still fucking FAILED math class. The school put pressure on him and he stopped playing what he loved because he needed to (apparently) learn the pythagorian theorem and memorize some important dates in history class.

He went to college for pre-med...dropped out. Transferred to business....dropped out....transferred to anthropology...dropp ed out. Now he works in retail.

Now imagine what he'd be doing right now if that fucking school had NURTURED his gifts and abilities instead of forcing him to fit a mold and "go to Yale like all your friends."

Learning disorder? Talk about a huge assumption (as you would say). Jesus Christ would be deemed schizophrenic and locked up by today's standards. Albert Einstein was a mediocre student. I find it highly arrogant for people to call things disorders and problems when in reality they might be symptoms of, say, the instance with my brother (who was put on ritalin for a long time).

And lastly, who's the dumb-ass kid? The kid who doesn't want to be a lawyer and wants to work at walmart (and does), or the kid who doesn't want to be a lawyer but becomes one anyway?

I'd rather have a balanced and WISE kid who might very well work at wal-mart, than a 'smart' one who knows the capital of Kyrgystan and hates his job/college/school.

Such fucked up priorities in this country.

as for drug abuse: besides the numerous studies done showing how prevalent drugs are in high-pressure schools, I went to one...it's there. And looking back, I could tell the ones who would have a problem before they did. How? they were the ones who had the most pressure

Jimmy Coonan · 11-01-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JcP

my personal opinion: raising your children to "be something" is not a good idea.

Parents nowadays raise kids to BE ATHLETES. To BE CHRISTIANS. To BE DOCTORS.

What about raising your kids to be themselves? If your kid wants to go to church, take her. If she wants to go to synagogue, take her. If she wants to stay at home and make brownies, do that.

I can't tell you how many of my friends have gone through serious issues around age 25 when they realize that what they were TAUGHT TO WANT isn't what they want.

my best friend in high school was a book-smart genius. We went to one of the top private schools in the country, and while I did well myself, he got Straight A's.

Long story short, after going to Princeton for 2 years, he had a mental breakdown, realized he'd been living FOR HIS PARENTS and now he's doing what he loves: playing golf.

Is he good? Not really. But he's happy.

Moral of the story: leave your kids the FUCK ALONE. They are NOT YOU.

If you love them, you'll help them be what they want to be. If you make them what you want to be, that's the antithesis of love. That's subconsciously saying, "if you want my love, you must be X."

and then we all wonder why kids are killing each other and doing serious amounts of drugs at 15. I'm all in favor of drug usage...but when its a conscious usage. When it's a 'choice,' not an escape.

So how do you raise your kids? I suggest answering their questions by helping them find their own answers.

Good philosophy.

I don't think it's any change from the way things have always been though, it's just that the old system doesn't work in today's society with all the choices we have. 100 years ago it wasn't really a question--of course you were whatever religion you were, everyone you knew was. And of course you were a farmer or a blacksmith or a factory worker or whatever, that's what people in your family always were. We have a lot more freedom to choose our path in life now--you meet more different kinds of people on a day to day basis, you're exposed to different kinds of lifestyles, you can go to college and study for a different career if you can get in, half the time whatever job your Dad did isn't around because the factory closed 10 years ago or you never really knew the guy in the first place.

So we have choices, and we all know it, except our parents still try to condition us to make the choices they think we should. It's a recipe for neurosis.

DubStyle311 · 11-01-2007, 01:18 PM

I wrote an essay on this for my theology class just last week.

The conclusion I came to is that it is important for parents to instill in their children the importance of religion or spirituality in their kids life. When theyre young, take them to church or whatever you denomination calls for. When they become adolescents, give them more leeway in what they want to do. When they become young adults, encourage them to understand their religion on an adult level. Thats the key. Its the parents job to instill the importance of religion. Its everyones personal choice decide if they want it or not and if they do, to understand it at an adult level.

Unfortunately, for the vast majority of people, "learning" stops after they reach adolescence. I can only speak from what I've experienced with Catholicism, but for most people, learning about Roman Catholicism ends when you're confirmed in 8th grade. It is not possible for a 13 year olds mind to be able to understand and comprehend the actual teachings of the Church and really to understand what Roman Catholicism is all about. Thats why you see people like ZenSkin, no offence, that when they see a Catholic symbol, they think back to their grade school religious education that was geared towards a childs mind and not an adults. Thus you see that disconnect and the notion of empty rituals.

I was lucky enough to go to a Catholic HS that had Theology profs who really wanted you to understand Catholicism from an adult level and taught you to question and really have a deep understanding of what its all about. My experience with theology classes in HS and college were far different than even the majority of people I know who went to other catholic HS's.

highanddry · 11-01-2007, 07:11 PM

I'll take note of what I want to take note of. Which is why i'm only taking note of that single sentence.

JcP · 11-01-2007, 07:39 PM

I know that about you from your first post.

That's why i asked you to take note, not demanded you to.

kamikazi89 · 11-01-2007, 08:02 PM

if you teach your children something they learn later isn't true, they end up rebelling, and they tend to lose all respect for authority: (feet of clay)

Mango · 11-01-2007, 08:19 PM

Religion shouldn't be introduced to kids till they can make the choice themselves. They don't understand what they are worshiping. They don't even have a reason why, and don't say to teach them morals. You don't need religion to teach kid good morals. You don't need religion to teach a kid right from wrong. Let the kids grow up and be able to choose the right path that satisfies there needs. If they feel a god can help them become a greater person, and give them strength, then good for them. If they feel they want to worship a spoon to find the greater person, then let them.

Religion to me is beautiful (in a sense of using it to empower oneself as long as it doesn't affect others), it can help people out (even though its not in my life), but other things can also be beautiful. Religion isn't the only thing out there that people can use to be a better person.

JcP · 11-01-2007, 08:22 PM

all a kid needs to learn (and I'd argue all one needs to learn in their entire lives in terms of morality and judgement) is the golden rule.

Sugar420 · 11-01-2007, 09:05 PM

the golden rule is a religious teaching

if left to their own ideas about right and wrong and morality, i can see by looking at morally free secular society what choices kids and adults are making. in the secular world, all life on earth started by random accident, there is no absolute right or wrong, and life is largely worthless in a society that is steeped in violence and killing to the point that 6 year olds in america have see so many incidents of violence and killing in movies cartoons and games that it amounts to teaching children a religion of violence

Quote:

It may be perfectly clear to you that Nazis, the Marines, "the Terminator" and the N.Y.P.D. all kill for different reasons. But as every parent knows, children are good at ignoring or seeing straight through subtleties

Here's what they see: killing is an exalted tool for punishment and control. http://www.bluecorncomics.c om/usmacho.htm

so if you dont teach kids something by both word and deed, then they will learn from somewhere else, so this idea of letting kids "make up their own minds" is not recognizing that kids minds will be made up by whatever their environment is. so if you "let them make up their own minds" they may decide to bring a gun to school for a violent ending. or they could become mindless consumers.
me, im going to teach the baby right from wrong by my example and with traditional religious teachings like the golden rule

kamikazi89 · 11-01-2007, 09:11 PM

you don't need religion to teach a child right from wrong..the most violent societies on earth, right now, are deeply religious(aka superstitious)

Sugar420 · 11-01-2007, 09:17 PM

what i am saying is that children do need to be taught, which is my first point

and my second is that whatever ideas of right and wrong a secular humanist would consider important to teach their children ultimately derive from religious teachings anyway, no matter how much anyone may want to deny it

kamikazi89 · 11-01-2007, 09:23 PM

religion was born from humans primal fear of the unknown, it's a part of our species history, without a doubt..but not a necessity in the modern age

JcP · 11-01-2007, 09:34 PM

the golden rule is not religious. But religion deals with the golden rule.

Just because Jesus talked about it doesn't make it religious.

kamikazi89 · 11-01-2007, 09:35 PM

anything jesus may or may not have talked about is pure speculation

Sugar420 · 11-01-2007, 09:37 PM

really? if you are not religious, how is it that you are able to judge what is religious and what is not?

JcP · 11-01-2007, 09:39 PM

let it be known, I'm totally down with Jesus.

But the Golden Rule is talked about in different terminology in almost every major culture, religious or otherwise.

verklingen · 11-02-2007, 07:30 AM

Christ guys come on, it's not religious it's spiritual.

Jimmy Coonan · 11-02-2007, 09:33 AM

If you're religious and go to services yourself, I don't see why you wouldn't take your kids. If you think that's the path to salvation why wouldn't you try to teach it to your children? Then can make up their own mind later.

When I was in elementary I ate broccoli and wore sissy-looking shirts with ducks on them because my Mom made me. I stopped doing all when I got old enough to make my own choices. But when you're a kid you do what your parents want. Nothing wrong with that.

Religion encompasses more than just the religious beliefs, it's part of your cultural heritage, and I'd think you'd want your kids to be educated in those traditions even if they're going to stop going to church as soon as they're too old for you to control them.

11-01-2007, 01:18 PM	#25 (permalink)
DubStyle311 Old School Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: down the highway Posts: 7,229 Thanks: 0 Thanked 80 Times in 65 Posts	I wrote an essay on this for my theology class just last week. The conclusion I came to is that it is important for parents to instill in their children the importance of religion or spirituality in their kids life. When theyre young, take them to church or whatever you denomination calls for. When they become adolescents, give them more leeway in what they want to do. When they become young adults, encourage them to understand their religion on an adult level. Thats the key. Its the parents job to instill the importance of religion. Its everyones personal choice decide if they want it or not and if they do, to understand it at an adult level. Unfortunately, for the vast majority of people, "learning" stops after they reach adolescence. I can only speak from what I've experienced with Catholicism, but for most people, learning about Roman Catholicism ends when you're confirmed in 8th grade. It is not possible for a 13 year olds mind to be able to understand and comprehend the actual teachings of the Church and really to understand what Roman Catholicism is all about. Thats why you see people like ZenSkin, no offence, that when they see a Catholic symbol, they think back to their grade school religious education that was geared towards a childs mind and not an adults. Thus you see that disconnect and the notion of empty rituals. I was lucky enough to go to a Catholic HS that had Theology profs who really wanted you to understand Catholicism from an adult level and taught you to question and really have a deep understanding of what its all about. My experience with theology classes in HS and college were far different than even the majority of people I know who went to other catholic HS's. __________________ I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

11-01-2007, 09:23 PM	#34 (permalink)
kamikazi89 devils advocate Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,425 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,322 Thanked 768 Times in 571 Posts	religion was born from humans primal fear of the unknown, it's a part of our species history, without a doubt..but not a necessity in the modern age Last edited by kamikazi89; 11-01-2007 at 09:26 PM.

11-02-2007, 07:30 AM	#39 (permalink)
verklingen Radical Dreamer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: texas Posts: 8,031 Thanks: 795 Thanked 1,470 Times in 940 Posts	Christ guys come on, it's not religious it's spiritual. __________________ “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” rip matt

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11-01-2007, 07:11 PM	#26 (permalink)
highanddry YaHookan Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 729 Thanks: 81 Thanked 73 Times in 52 Posts	I'll take note of what I want to take note of. Which is why i'm only taking note of that single sentence.

11-01-2007, 08:02 PM	#28 (permalink)
kamikazi89 devils advocate Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,425 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,322 Thanked 768 Times in 571 Posts	if you teach your children something they learn later isn't true, they end up rebelling, and they tend to lose all respect for authority: (feet of clay)

11-01-2007, 09:11 PM	#32 (permalink)
kamikazi89 devils advocate Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,425 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,322 Thanked 768 Times in 571 Posts	you don't need religion to teach a child right from wrong..the most violent societies on earth, right now, are deeply religious(aka superstitious)

11-01-2007, 09:17 PM	#33 (permalink)
Sugar420 Old School Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 6,093 Thanks: 32 Thanked 132 Times in 706 Posts	what i am saying is that children do need to be taught, which is my first point and my second is that whatever ideas of right and wrong a secular humanist would consider important to teach their children ultimately derive from religious teachings anyway, no matter how much anyone may want to deny it

11-01-2007, 09:35 PM	#36 (permalink)
kamikazi89 devils advocate Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,425 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,322 Thanked 768 Times in 571 Posts	anything jesus may or may not have talked about is pure speculation

11-01-2007, 09:37 PM	#37 (permalink)
Sugar420 Old School Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 6,093 Thanks: 32 Thanked 132 Times in 706 Posts	really? if you are not religious, how is it that you are able to judge what is religious and what is not?

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