ZenSkin

This is really just musing, since I am not planning on having a family right now.

But -- what about children and religious beliefs?

My girlfriend is Episcopalian and I never really payed attention until we started talking about baptising children and I thought, "What's the point?"

I was at a Catholic wedding this past weekend and was reminded of why Catholicism is not for me. It seemed like a lot of empty and pointless ritual with some guy in a dress telling everyone what to do and think so that god won't get pissed off. I was raised Catholic and have a certain respect for it in the abstract ... but I see it is hopelessly narrow and disconected from the feelings and actions of most people who were raised in that tradition.

But it is important to my girlfriend that her children be raised with some attachment to the Episcopalian Church (which, I'll admit, is a lot more laid back that the Roamn Catholic version). But, honestly, what fucking difference does it make? Are they going to burn in hell if I insist they be raised without religion? Is the Big Man going to smite my child if I don't spill some water on his head and say the magic words? Most of all -- what does the kid care? Morals don't come from religion, religion comes from an overexertion of morals with a fair dose of fear, IMO. Why would I want my kid to be exposed to that???

I think about my devotion to Buddhism, but that is something I took to as an adult. I see that as a philosophy, not something to impose on some poor kid who doesn't need superstition in place of love.

My father, whom I seldom see as he lives in Ireland, told me on the way to the church that he was a 'born again agnostic.' Something I can actually believe in -- non-belief!

But then there are grandparents hanging around who are galled at the idea of children not being raised in a religious tradition ... why? Are they going to become axe murderers because they don't fear hellfire or karmic retribution?

On the one hand, I could be a true agnostic and go with the flow because it really makes no difference to me. On the other hand, I could point out the absurdity of dipping a baby in some water and pronouncing it part of god's special little army and reject the whole thing as being pointless, slightly cruel and way to medieval for my taste.

I dunno ... am I not seeing the emporer's new clothes here or is religion one big farce to get people to toss some cash in a collection plate? Does anyone in the 21st century really believe that a sprinkle of water on the head of a child is going to make any difference in their life and possible afterlife? Is god that petty?

And if it is just a metaphor, why bother?

Sorry for the ramble, but this has been on my mind lately.

Thoughts?

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Flowerchild

I can only tell you about my kids and religion.


I dont make my kids go to church, if they dont wanna go, that is up to them. I will not force them to do something they dont want to do.

None of them have been baptised, and I wont make them do that either. That is their decision to make, not mine.

My 13 year old asked me a couple months ago about being baptised, and I talked to her about it, I also called my Minister because I think she is too young to really make that choice.

He said, if she is asking about it, then she must be ready. So, I talked to her some more, turns out she still isnt baptised. I assume she isnt ready.

She loves going to church, and the youth group is great, however she doesnt go every Sunday. I myself, havent been going alot lately. Do I think I will burn in hell, maybe, I dunno.

My other two girls go to church occasionally, if they want to go, I make sure I take them. I think mostly my kids want to go, not to hear a sermon, but to see their friends, Grandmother, Great-Grandmother, and their cousins. I do know that they listen when our Minister is talking, because sometimes, they ask me questions later. I usually explain the best I can. I dont claim to know the bible from one end to the other, and I dont force it down anyones throat. But if someone ask I try to explain my beliefs.

Now how do you know if your ready to turn your life over to Jesus?

That I really dont know, I mean, I was baptised at 14 years of age. I wasnt ready, I was forced into it by my Mother. She thought I was bad and needed saving. That actually turned me away from Church for many years. I was sick and tired of hearing how I was gonna burn in hell because I smoked weed, I got married at 15, and I basically fucked up my life.

Now on to my Dad, He was not a religious person at all, but as he lay dying, he asked me to call in the preacher. I called two. They came in and prayed over him and baptised him right in the intensive care unit at the hospital. While they were doing this ritual, I was asked to leave! I dont know to this day why. Anyway, I watching thru the window, because I thought it was wrong they put me out. So they closed the curtains! that really pissed me off.

When they came out they told me my Dad was saved and when he died he would go to heaven, and he repented all his sins, and trust me he had many, I wont go into those.

So I sat wondering, does God hear you when you are on your death bed, or does he turn a deaf ear because you waited until you are dying to turn your life over to him. I still wonder that to this day.

I started going back to church a couple years after my Dad passed away. Still, tortured by the fact God may not have listened to my Dad ask to be saved.

I sat in church Sunday after Sunday and listened to the Minister and I was interested. One day, I took a bold step to the front of the church in front of the entire congregation and said I would like to turn my life over to Christ. I was baptised again on Easter Sunday a couple years ago. I felt I was ready this time.

Now, I am not a saint and dont pretend to be, so where am I going when I die, to heaven or hell, that question haunts me alot.

And I still wonder did God hear my Dad, so I decided to ask the Minister about deathbed confessions. He says anytime, you decide to turn your life over to Christ he hears you, and he knows if you mean it or not. Ok, so now, did my Dad mean it or not? This is just a neverending thing. Drives me nuts!

I dont know if I helped you at all, but hopefully, you understood my ramble.

Real Corona

I was baptised when I was very young, not sure the age but likely before my first birthday. My mother was the outcast of the family. Upon marrying my father she basically flipped off her tight knit Catholic family in Wyoming and heading for Nome Alaska. A true piece of shit town if you haven't been there. She bounced around Alaska with my father until they reached Juneau. My fathers family is truly insane, each and everyone of them. Which is probably where I get it from and why I have so much respect for them. Either way they were not religous at all.

However I think in some way my mother baptised me because that was what happened to her sisters brothers uncles aunts etc. I never truly understood what it meant until I was much much older.

My aunt on my mothers side had been a huge party girl. Then she got pregnant with a boy when the doctors told her she would not be able to. She turned her life around and now is a nurse/counselor at the local middle school with four kids the oldest aformentioned is attending Yale. I highly doubt things would have gone as smoothly for her without her faith in the church and family support.

However when my father was killed my mother used a different route and ran away from Alaska heading with me to California. She used denial to cope with her lose and it played into my three year old pysche as well.

Years later when ever I visited my grandparents I was forced to go to church. Not because the family was trying to convert me, but because I was 8 years old and you don't leave 8 year olds home alone. I thought church was an extrodinarly boring event and finally was relieved of the duty when I was around 11 or so.

I never thought much religion tending to be agnostic like you Zen until high school. When a girl invited me to go to a youth group with her. From there I began to rediscover what had been pushed into my head found some incredibly good leasons that were learned.

I guess what I am trying to say is that atheisim is a religion and to press that on your child is equally wrong. I think you should (metaphorically since you dont have children, but hey you brought the topic up) let you child find his own path.
The problem with this board is so many of its members stereotype religion in the same way people stereotype pot smokers. And to tell you the truth it makes me very sad to see.

Governor

I taught my daughter about the inherent evil of believing in a god other than the one between her ears. I let her explore different beliefs and exposed their nastiness when she came in contact with them.

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Real Corona

I told my kids that pot smokers were dirty losers who will never make anything of their lives.

Kompressor

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SamLad

This has no real clever, intelligent point to it but catholocism scared the shit out of me, just cos u arent baptised you go to purgatory and being a bastard child and all that. I was scared stiff and i wasnt even catholic but when i was younger i wasnt really taught a seperation between christianity and i assumed protestant beliefs were the same as catholic cos they both involved god and jesus.

The descriptions of purgatory and hell and that terrified me but it was only as i got older i sorted my head out and realised imo that that isnt belief its fear like a dictatorship. I know that my god (whatever it may be) is a forgiving god.

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SweetSativa

Hi Zen. Well, to me it does seem like something important enough to work out before your gf and you ever take that step. To me, it is extremely important for my kids to follow what's inside of them. If it didn't matter, i'd have them at church so they could be part of what everyone else around here seems to be. It is important though. Thier spiritual developement has to be their personal choice and come from them. Of course, kids will pick things up from what they are around but nothing is forced around here in the least. I don't believe in baptism at all because the child has no idea what is going on (but that's just me). I guess that in the long run, we could say that it doesn't matter. But then (okay, now who's rambling ), if it means something to your wife/ gf then it will probably bother her that it means nothing to you and that you will probably convey to your future children how you feel about it. It seems like it could cause conflict in the future because you believe strongly and I assume that she does as well. Sometimes those things don't mean nearly as much until kids are brought into the equation. But there is a difference in people. Personally, I am very fortunate to have found someone who is on such a similar path to mine, but it would cause a major problem for me if I were married to someone who insisted on baptism and such. Anyway, that's my rambling on the topic.

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Kompressor

Let's all go Bahá'í and make everyone happy.

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cryptorchid

I was baptised when I was a baby. It didn't start to bother me until I was around 14. I told my mom I was upset that she made me do that and she didn't wait to give me a choice.

Oh well, doesn't really matter. I no longer associate myself with that deceiving cult.

That disgusts me.

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Real Corona

That's one of the funniest things I have ever read on here. Thanks.

Kompressor

Thank you for the homage.

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Sugar420

^ i agree, total crack-up!


i was thinkin tho, when we teach kids religion, we are teaching them basic attitudes about life and living.
for xampl, when we sit down to dinner and we say "thank you Jesus" the child is learning about having a grateful attitude. we are glad to have what we got. i think this is a good tude to teach children. it doesnt matter if the kid thinks Jesus owns the grocery store, or doesnt get the total significance. its the fundemental idea of giving thanx and praises that contributes to a more irie existance.
or when we teach kids the seven sacred laws and respect for the various animal spirits, ect, its religion, but thru that medium we are introducing ideas about personal responsibility and morality, not just right and wrong, but the deeper philosophical thinking that right and wrong rest on.

baptism i think is more for the grownups than the kids. among the catholics ive known, the kids baptism was a big family/community ritual and an excuse to have a big party, and whats wrong with that?

now of course we can terrify kids with burning in hell and all that, and thats baad, mmmkay? but im saying that a very good way to give a child a positive confident and beneficial outlook is by giving basic positive and beneficial religious teachings.

obviously it all comes down to the basic tude of the parents, but the point of teaching kids anything is to give them skillz and strength and tude to avoid or pass thru life's trials and tribulations intact, and to gro stronger from them.
and thats what its all about.

Flowerchild

Very nice Veda

Real Corona

Come on Zen, would you rather have the kid get a little water poured over his head? Or when he's 13 have his foreskin cut off?

ClosetSmoker

I agree with V3D4, My kids go to church every sunday. I go to church every sunday that I don't have to work. My children have been brought up in a religous environment. My wife and I teach them the same values they learn at church at home, or vis versa. To be upstanding people in the community. If they decide to not go to church when they are no longer living under my roof, that is there choice. Now I"m not he best person at keeping the promises I'm made with our Lord Jesus Christ. But damit my kids will. Just a little joke.
I think that they need to have these values in life to be succussful in life. For instance my 14 year old wanted to fly jets you know the fighter kind for our great millitary. He has had that goal for about 7 years. He was told by a Fighter Pilot about 4 years ago to get good grades and excell in sports and do community service. He will have his Eagle Scout (highest level of a Scout) by age 16 has 4.+ GPA works at the old folks home and has a job at the local Food Mart. My feeling on this is he was born going to church and stands up for what he believes. And Yes I feel like I ( or mostly my wife )had something to do with it. My other 3 children are fallowing suit. Just my 2 cents!

ziplock

As a kid, I was never exposed really to religion in any way. Though my mom's side of the family was catholic, my uncle had gone to a catholic private school. There, he was molested... My mom was going to go to a similar private school, but my uncle stopped my grandparents from doing it. That's when my mom's family stopped going to church, my mom became VERY anti-religious. My grandparents remained Catholic but refused to have anything to do with the church or establishment.

My mom's spirituality comes from her relationship with my grandpa on my father's side. He was in WWII, and had taken grenade shrapnel I believe to the leg. The field medic, with no anesthetics, managed to successfully hypnotize my grandpa and remove the shrapnel. After this point my grandpa was incredibly interested in hypnotism, and once he got back from WWII committed to that. He and my mom had a close relationship, he taught her hypnotism, practiced meditation with her, read various books of course. He gave her a lot to have and later on pass on to me, it's how I got Seth Speaks which was a pretty important book for me.

I hadn't really contemplated spirituality until I fell into a depression for a while around 15, 16. I find adolescence is where most people naturally start contemplating philosophies and spiritual concepts. Makes a lot of sense to me for various reasons but that doesn't matter.

It was at this point that I started questioning everything. Started smoking bud after antidepressants were a complete joke. Had a thought provoking mushroom trip that got me really interested in eastern philosophies. Started with Taoism, then I checked out Buddhism and Hinduism, Sufism, read a ton of the famous Greek philosophers, various Aboriginal beliefs, especially along the lines of Shamanism. Then I read tons about western psychology and science, physics, biology, astronomy... It doesn't really stop. I then started to compile everything I learned into my own belief system, and this is where I stand now.

As such, when I have children, I'm not going to teach them any one specific religion. I'll take them to a church sermon, I'll take them to a Buddhist temple, a Hindu temple. Luckily in BC we have many of these, god bless diversity. I'll teach them that various cultures developed various beliefs. We're lucky enough to be in a time period where all these cultures are open and available to us, and that we should take advantage of this and experience the diversity.

I find there are morals and meanings in religion that are great for a child to know. But, I feel that many religions convey this message inefficiently, in that I believe I could do a much better job teaching the same things. I'll want to encourage and foster a sense of confidence, independance and individuality in my child. Help them be a strong, capable, compassionate, accepting, empathetic person, that can choose their path for themselves. I'll help them with any questions, I'll show them different beliefs and people, and be there for them as they walk there path. But I won't walk it for them, and I won't let some religion tell them how to walk it. I feel the only ones who can truely be responsible for that is themselves, and I have no position to take that from them.

I find religion, while fine and all, is impractical and out of date. I like the communial unity it brings about, but there are many negative byproducts of this that's observable in many of the followers. Which, is unfortunate, but understandable considering the inconsistencies involved in transplanting a 2000 year old text into a modern context. It's all about how one interacts with any specific religion that's important, and I want my child to develope and gain a sense of self before engaging in this interaction.

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Paste

The "christian" system was created by constantinopleSP? back in the day. He combined elements of the bible with pagan rituals and gods in order to convert pagans to christianity.

You do not have to be baptised in water, it's even in the bible.
There is such a thing as being baptised in spirit.
It all comes down to personal belief and faith, not some water and old rituals.

This is why I do not believe in religion.

Easter? Christmas?

All pagan holidays.
Has nothing to do with God or Jesus whatsoever.

That being said, A lot of people in this thread have been talking about not forcing religion on their kids, which I completely agree with.
Let them make up thier own minds.

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kamikazi89

^agrees totally

Jimmy Coonan

I plan on raising my kids atheists. I'll still teach them the infallibility of the Pope though.

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