funky_unkle

Actually He said He was the way to God.
What does Zen mean here? (not familiar with the term)

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

Ego Tripping

What I mean to say is, Jesus never desired a Religion like this, at least I don't think.

Zen is an off-shoot of Buddhism and Taoism.

funky_unkle

"I desire mercy, not sacrifice" - God. (that's from the OT!)
I don't think Jesus wanted a religion at all.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

Kompressor

Zen isn't an offshoot of Buddhism and Taoism, it is Buddhism in the Japanese interpretation.

There are only two schools of Buddhism, Theravada and Mahayana. Zen is the Mahayana of Japan.

__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson

Ego Tripping

Eh, same thing. I was giving the simple version.

SweetSativa

Yeah, I'm not a Christian in a 'religious' type of way but I can say that I am a follower of Jesus, have felt embraced in that light. I see him as a teacher... a beautiful teacher. I think that he wanted us to 'believe in him'/ to KNOW him as he is within us... the spirit is part of all of us and we a part of it. God is Love... if Love is your God, the path is paved.

__________________
"Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel
http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

funky_unkle

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

John 10:9
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.
He will come in and go out, and find pasture.
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy;
I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Rom 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the
law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was
weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the
likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

peon1313

These verses posted are all true, but what Sativa is advocating is what I also believe. Christ and the Father are one. Christ is in us. We are all children of God. We and the Father are one. No one comes to the Father except through Christ. Now, some people take that to mean that no one comes to the Father except through believing in the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. Others, myself included, believe that when one comes to know Christ (that is the true spiritual inner man inside of us all)they and the Father are one. The first concept is a matter of belief. The second is a matter of experience. This is what is unknowingly meant when someone says you must know Jesus in your heart or something to that effect.

I began my journey believing in the historical existence of Jesus from Nazareth...Then I went deeper. Paul's writings do a great deal of this kind of talk, i.e., Christ in us, the mind of Christ, the inner man, etc. What this does is universalizes the story. People from all religions can "know" Christ, without calling it Christ, or knowing that Jesus ever walked the Earth. To hear that inner call to something higher and responding. It reminds me of a favorite Ghandi quote, "I would've been a Christian, if it weren't for Christians."

What this means for me, is either I have grown in my understanding of the gospel, or I have strayed into damnable heresy. Either way, I play my part.

But, you see, its often an item of contention. I do believe absolutely John 14:5-14. To me it is absolutely true. However, I take it differently than more traditional types. So what is important? That I believe it the same way you do, or that I believe? How do we "see" Jesus today? Inside. We are not witnesses to his Earthly ministry beyond the fact that we are all his body, we have his mind and feel his heart. When we see him, we see the Father. Inside. We show our inner realities to the outside with our actions. That way others can come to know the Father too.

jc

__________________
The Universe itself can be called a myth, since bodies and material objects are apparent in it, while souls and intellects are concealed. -- Sallustius

funky_unkle

I think Paul is pretty clear about Jesus being the only way to God. In fact his whole faoundation is that Jesus, in history, came, died and rose again. Also that's what Jesus told his followers to tell others.
The point is that we don't know who God really is unless He reveals Himself to us. That's what Jesus did, and He reconciled man and God.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his
being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

While He died for everyone, nobody has use of it if they don't even know about it. You don't have Jesus in you if you don't invite Him in.
If it doesn't matter what you believe, Jesus died for nothing.

John 15
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are
the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

SweetSativa

Yes, but God looks at your heart. You can invite him in by loving 'Him'... and you will 'obey' Him if you love 'Him' and you do not have to hear his name or the story in order to feel that love. This is why I don't go to church... because it takes experience, not just the story... the story cannot speak to everyone in exactly the same way... wasn't even meant to. I mean no disrespect and there is a reason for every interpretation but I am very comfortable and confident with my own. If you wish to believe that everyone belonging to a different faith than you is going to hell.... please be careful to heed what "He" tells us about judgement. Judge not lest judgement will befall you in the exact same 'degree' as the judgement has been passed (I just read it the other day but am too lazy to look it up now and quote it properly... I took from it the meaning that was already written within my heart). Unconditional love means just that... love without condition and this IS how God loves and this IS what He wants us to do as well. Unfortunately, this is not something that you can just decide to do one day. It's something that comes from inside and usually after great struggle and after your heart has cried loudly for the Father and He hears you, you feel his presence and you know that he has always been with you. He is not only with a Christian, for he loves unconditionally... and he loves all. Just my opinion.... we can pick the Bible apart but the truest messages will ring true with your heart. And you will know the truth... and (you guessed it) the truth will set you free. Look for that counselor.

Much love to you all

__________________
"Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel
http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

kamikazi89

now now holo....she said she accepted him unto his heart...

your just defendin the bible, which is cool...we get it.

...what other, holo,m philosophy do you, holo, as an individual,find the most

intriguing...mystery ....or daunting???"?

outside of your own...

of course....better to read the posts(komps)....and address its points...

so far only one flaw of logic....hidden with....leapand conjecture..

but, yea...lots of stuff there

that it be cool, and in like the spirit of the thread..

...not just a title

...and holo....i know you just gotta have an account @ internet infidels..

...whats youre handle??

funky_unkle

SweetSativa,
I absolutely respect your faith, I guess I just take the Bible more at face value, so to speak.
It's not my business to judge. People's own consciences will do that. All I know is that the way I am in and by myself, all the shit I've done, certainly doesn't get me closer to God. The only thing I really look for is what to do with guilt, and how to actually be free before God.

I would never have been free if I hadn't heard about Jesus and taken Him up on His promise:
Matt 11:28
Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

I don't think I understand who you think Jesus is (was?).
It's not for me to speculate or judge how others will be judged, but I doubt there are many who would like to come under God's perfect judgment.
And yes, God does love unconditionally.

Ron,
What is "internet infidels"?
I don't know what philosophies interest me the most. The yin/yang concept
intrigued me for some time, and various new age crap. I used to be an anarchist too, and a plain all-out cynic.
I've tried to live in a lot of ways, trying to figure out a good way to think
about life, always hoping there would be something out there that would
never crumble, never fail.
So when I found Jesus, all the nice philosophies and ways to live and rules
and rituals and drugs and therapy sessions and my own efforts and anything I
would try to base my life on just crumbled to dust. Worthless, useless.
They didn't work. They didn't make me a better person. They didn't wash away my guilt, they didn't get me closer to God. They didn't make me love
my enemies.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

SweetSativa

That is very beautiful. I'm glad that you found what you needed and were released to God. I'm sorry if I got on my high-horse; I have a weakness when it comes to Christianity because of where I live and people who I have come into contact with. I just think that Jesus is now a spirit (and actually always was; but was a man to tell his story) and that we are connected to Him. That it was not just words that He spoke, saying that he would create a new counselor to be with us always... the Spirit of Truth... that it was truth. You can feel it... some find it through the words of Jesus and the text of the Bible, some find it through music, some through meditation or prayer, and through all different faiths and it is called all sorts of different things. I think that it's what Jesus was trying to wake everyone to... the Spirit. It sounds as though you were greatly lightened... what a beautiful thing .

As for the Bible Code, I believe that there are many truths upon truths. There are many thing 'coincidental' and many things that should be random from our perspective; and it just turns out that they are not random... it turns out that our deepest suspicions are true.... there must be something greater than ourselves... a creator.

__________________
"Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel
http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

kamikazi89

holo..i didnt ask you to challenge your faith..

i understand...it feeds your life

but to expound on the mysterie and theories of what makes our lives..

what do you mean yin/yang thing??





and this guy is cool...




wonder where he was

and what he was thinkin

funky_unkle

Ron,
I figured if I could understand the yin/yang thing or say, taoism or whatever, I could maybe live by that. I've forgotten now a lot of what I read about those things. Anyway my point is that I didn't find more peace in philosophies and new age stuff than I did in drugs.
The guy in your pic was probably thinking "that was one helluva trip"

SweetSativa,
it's cool to disagree, we're friendly people after all.
I think I understand what you're saying, but I can't see how you can get the same from the diff. things you mentioned (like music and other religions). I don't know of any religion that has anything remotely close to Jesus.
I'm curious about your thoughts on sin and guilt and judgment and justice.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

kamikazi89

you can keep the faith you live by, holo...and still explore Taoism...

and honestly holo..

"that was one helluva trip"

i doubt it...

would have to know more about him

but i can stand firm...in that was not how it was streaming through him.

he is part alien, wise, eternal...

spiritual knowledge...in history and existence...

he's a mystery to you aye??

me to...i thirst to find more.

SweetSativa

Because the spirit does not have the physical limitations as does the flesh. Words upon a page only speak to the mind, but the spirit behind those words... this is heard by the soul. Your burden was eased when you gave yourself to Jesus and it is much easier to travel a path when you are not weighted by the past. Every religion that I know of has something remotely close to Jesus. Someone who is a spokesperson for God (which the Bible tells us is LOVE). I think that as we judge, so are we judged... about sin; we've already been freed of this, right? The truth is written within our hearts as promised and our sins are relieved when we see the truth. As far as justice... I think that there is a part of us that cannot be 'dirtied' by that which has been labled as sin. We experience the pain of our sins until the burden is lifted, the cycle is stopped, we are 'reborn' in the spirit and we know that we are of the spirit. We now live in this world but we are not of this world. Nice to talk to you and may your journey be filled with joy.

__________________
"Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel
http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

funky_unkle

I couldn't make up anything funnier to say about the guy... :/

Of course I can explore taoism and anything else while keeping my own faith, in fact I'm very interested in what other people believe. But I won't search for the answer in other religions, as I already found it.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

funky_unkle

True, most religions have spokespersons, but Jesus was alone in two things: saying (and proving) He was God, and carrying the sin of the world.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

peon1313

Yes, Paul is pretty clear about that. Again, this is something I do not disagree with...I just take it to mean more.

That's Paul's foundation alright, but Paul goes beyond foundation as we are to go beyond foundation. Take a look at 1 Corinthians. Paul is writing to a group of NEW believers in Corinth. He has important words for them. For these NEW believers in chapter 2, verse 2, he writes:

For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

There is the foundational teaching. This is the teaching to young Christians. Now take a look at verse 6 where he contrasts that teaching with his teaching to the mature (perfected or initiated).

2:6 YET we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age, nor of the rulers who are passing away; 7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood;for if the had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory 9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." 10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

You, see, there is more beyond the foundation...the foundational teaching is good but it is only the beginning of a much deeper truth. See 2:10 above. How do we learn these things? Inside in spirit (v.10-12) Now see, 3:1-2:

And I, brethern, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to recieve it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,...

So for Paul, the milk for babies in Christ, still fleshly men, is Christ and Christ crucified, but there is also meat. This implies a deeper more 'filling' meaning to the foundational teaching.

How is he revealed? Revelation occurs inside. Many believe that the bible is God's revelation of himself to us. That is incorrect and unbiblical. God's revelation of himself to us is his WORD, the logos, the Christ. Does the bible contain some words about God? Yes. Is the bible The Word of God? No...to suggest it comes close to idolotry. Christ is the revelation of God to man...as you say, in him we are reconciled to God.


Wonderful, true words.

Hmm. Intellectual knowledge and belief are two different things. One can believe in Christ without knowing and understanding the gospel story. Look at Abraham in the OT. Just because someone has never heard the word 'Jesus', doesn't mean they can't know Him. Here I speak not of intellectual knowledge but of inner, experiential knowledge. The way you 'know' yourself or you 'know' your mother. It's different than 'knowing' your ABC's. Its a failure of our language that we have to use 'know' in so many ways, but I digress. To say that we have to believe the right way is to make salvation no more than intellectual understanding...what then of the retarded? To Hell? No, thankfully salvation isn't about understanding...it is about knowing and loving, personally, and faith...which is also not quite the same thing as belief.


So true...again here we see the motif of the cosubstantiality of redeemer and sinner. And what is the vine? Christ. We are the branches. Are the branches those who understand Jesus lived died and came back to life in the backwaters of the Roman empire 2000 years ago? or those who love God and love their neighbors as themselves (fruit)? What does it mean to be apart from the vine? Does it mean those who just don't understand or have never heard the story? I don't think so. I think it is those who refuse the call of the spiritual man and the spiritual kingdom that exists right now. Christ is not a Christian. He is man. He is the reality that humanity and divinity are one, and that is for all of us, if we don't die fighting against it...and maybe even if we do.

jc

__________________
The Universe itself can be called a myth, since bodies and material objects are apparent in it, while souls and intellects are concealed. -- Sallustius