funky_unkle

True, Christ is the beginning. Our goal and purpose is to become like Him. Any spiritual knowledge springing from Jesus is false if it ends up removing Him as the only way to God.
Yep. The Bible is important because it's where we can read about Christ.
My point is that it doesn't matter if you call Him Yeshua or Jesus, as long as it's the same person you're talking about. I believe if you truly look for God you'll find Him. If you ask Him to give you faith, He will. And I believe God judges justly, it's not like a retard can't be saved.
There are many ways to Jesus, but He's the only way to God. I'd be careful not to go from a liberal acceptance of different "ways" to believe to full-blown universalism.
There's a reason Jesus instructed His followers to spread the Gospel.
He said to love your neighbour as yourself, but that's not the Gospel. That's the law. The Gospel is that Jesus fulfilled that law and took our punishment, and through believing in Him we are free from both sin and law.
Now if you can actually live a perfect life you won't need Jesus. But you don't (I can say for sure without even knowing you, no offense .
The thing is that if works could save you (is that what you believe or am I misinterpreting you here?), Jesus' work was pointless. You'll see Paul stressing again and again that relying on what Jesus did is the only way.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

Sugar420

i dont understand what you mean by "works"
could you explain that a little bit?

funky_unkle

It's the idea that performing certain actions, like giving to the poor, will nullify sins or earn real favour with God.
It can also refer specifically to the Judaist laws, where priests had to offer sacrifices for their sins before they could enter into the prescence of God in the temple.

Paul warns believers in Jesus not to return to trying to get favour with God with works, be it charity or circumsision, because their whole relationship with God is based on faith in Jesus who both lived right and offered Himself once for all.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

peon1313

Yes. I am not suggesting that we remove Christ Jesus as the only way to God. What I am suggessting is that salvation is not based on an intellectual understanding which is, in fact, a work. Intellectual understanding is something WE achieve. Salvation is not. We will talk about works in a bit.
Would you agree that it is not divine? Would you agree that your primary source of knowing Christ comes from within, whereas your seemingly primary source of knowing about Christ comes from the book(s)? There is a subtle but very important difference.

Ahh...What happens when we disagree on whether we are talking about the same person? You see, I believe that Christ is always the same. We are all his body, our mind is his, as well as our heart. In conforming to his image, we cease to be our old selves. What do we become? Christ lives within. What part of me is more true? The old part of me that is hopelessly dependant on the world and all its petty workings i.e., the old me? Or, is it the new, spiritual man that is inside? And who is that spiritual man inside? A hint: It's not me. Christ is an image. Christ is a symbol that stands for us. All of us. Now to say Christ is a symbol sounds as if I say Christ is not real. I happen to believe that Jesus is what C.S. Lewis referred to as a 'true myth.' Sort of a physical manifestation of a symbol. In Christ's case He is the express image of God, and what does the express image of God look like? Us. Christ is what is alive inside you whether you know it or not. It doesn't matter what word you use to describe it. If it did, we'd all be in trouble since we don't use the word Joshua. In that, we agree.

As far as universalism is concerned, it may seem far fetched and I don't know quite where I stand on it but before imperial Christianity arose, universalism as a doctrine was a position held by many prominent theologians and schools. Origen, St. Jerome, and St. Basil among them. Non-canonical writings such as one of the Apoc. of Peter also hint at universalism. Every knee shall bow every tongue confess...

There is a reason we are to spread the gospel. Because it is good news! We aren't under any religious law. We are beyond punishment and reward. We are free from that entire cycle. All it did was hold us back and now its over! Good news!

Regarding works salvation, you have misinterpreted me. I view intellectual assent as a work. Intellectual assent is not faith. They are different. One is a work, and one is a gift. I would add about Paul (and even Jesus), that identifying with what Jesus did is just as important, if not more important than, relying on what was done. "Pick up your cross and follow me." Jesus is the model in Christianity of a life lived before God. What we need to realize it that Christ crucified is you and me crucified. Christ resurrected is you and me resurrected. Paul, in Romans I believe, points to this but I'll have to make sure I'm in the right letter.

Now a good question would be, "Because one finds Christ inside now and not 2000 years ago in the boonies of Empire, does that mean that one has put oneself before Jesus or denied oneself in favor of identity with Christ?"

jc

__________________
The Universe itself can be called a myth, since bodies and material objects are apparent in it, while souls and intellects are concealed. -- Sallustius

funky_unkle

I love your posts peon.
I think we're using some different words for the same things.

About intellectual understanding, I think I agree with you. As the Bible says, no man comes to God without the Spirit beckoning him (in my language it says pulling him). It also says faith comes by hearing the word of God - it's not an achievement on our part. The more I read the Bible, the stronger my faith grows, yet it's not just a matter of brainwashing yourself. The word of God is alive, I think "...and the Word was God" holds deep meanings on many levels. It creates what it speaks.

I hold to the "regular" belief that the Bible is the word of God, that is, it contains what He wants it to contain. That's not the pivotal point of my faith though. Paul said "how can they believe in someone they've never heard about?" Someone has to tell them. It might be God, in a dream or a vision, it might be me on a message board.

(Side note: while I think nothing in the Bible is more important than the gospels, there's clearly a "red thread" through it. Think messianic prophecies, Moses' snake in the desert as a type of Christ etc).

Of course, I know Jesus personally on the inside (for lack of a better word), but I read the gospel accounts to know what He said and did. Knowing it on merely an intellectual level, as in knowing about it, doesn't do any good IMO. I think Jesus has said what He needed to say and done what He needed to do. I mostly agree here. But I'm not sure if you're saying that Christ is inside everyone regardless of what they believe.
I would love to believe in universalism, but I really can't find that it's compatible with the Bible. At least I would have to say only parts of what Jesus said was true.Sorry, I don't understand that question... :/YES! I have to used the tired analogy of the bank account though: it doesn't help you to be a millionaire if you don't know it. Or know it but don't act on it.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

funky_unkle

I just had to quote this again for anyone who doesn't bother to read long posts.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

kitch

THIS JUST IN Ghengis Khan Mausoleum

you may ask why it matters that they've found Ghengis Khan, well nostradamus made a very famous prediction:
The year 1999 seven months
From the sky will come a great King of Terror
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols.
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.

now I don't know if perhaps the date was a few years off, or who the great king of terror is (though I have my guesses) but there can be NO DOUBT as to who is referred to by the great king of the mongols. Coincidence? perhaps. intriguing? definetely.

__________________