Biblical evidence for Reincarnation? - Page 2

Mahavishnu · 10-17-2004, 12:19 AM

I believe in reincarnation, as we start out as a simple single-celled organism, and through good karma we work our way up to smarter and more aware beings, and by having good karma. When you get to the final stage of reincarnation, a human being, what you do in that life depends on how far back you go, or if you go to "Heaven". I don't belong to any religion, but I do have my beliefs. The reincarnation from other animals, such as you did this good as a single-celled organism, you can become a honey bee. In the next life you may make it to a gecko. The next life a chipmunk, and so on, and that is also why I believe that when you look at people they look alot like certain animals, it shows what creature they last were. Heaven, I wonder what it feels like. I wonder if it is like always being on Heroin/morphine/opium. I've never taken those drugs, but I've heard about such good feelings that come from them. Mabey heaven is like the very best opiate, feeling that way every second and not feeling bad or tired or anything and not feeling bored or that you don't have a meaning, just pure,eternal happiness and nirvana. Where could this be? Mabey in space. All those stars could be spirts, and the sun "God". I think I'm going to make a thread about that.

Canuck Wisdom · 10-17-2004, 08:33 AM

I think there is very strong scientific evidence to suggest that the sun is just like any other star, smaller then many, and is simply closest to us.

And my idea of heaven doesn't involve a physical space, but rather more like a spiritual location. A good one. And you can get close to it while on earth, but not completly "in heaven" till you shed your physical manifestation, death. Or something like that. I really dont know what to believe but that seems pretty much the best answer to me right now, simply put of course.

Canuck Wisdom · 10-17-2004, 08:38 AM

I dont know about reincarnation, I dont see any reason to believe or disbelieve it. Maybe human isn't the last step, and next we have to be planets.

funky_unkle · 10-18-2004, 05:05 AM

Ego,
I think the greek word for "verily" is "amen." It's doesn't mean "yeah you're right," but rather "listen up, this here is the truth right here ->"
And then He says "water and Spirit," as in a spiritual sense, not physical.

Peach/Deadhead,
are you saying an amoeba can be a good amoeba? I don't get that.

Ego Tripping · 10-18-2004, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funky_unkle

Ego,
I think the greek word for "verily" is "amen." It's doesn't mean "yeah you're right," but rather "listen up, this here is the truth right here ->"
And then He says "water and Spirit," as in a spiritual sense, not physical.

Sorry, you're wrong.

ver·i·ly ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vr-l)
adv.
In truth; in fact.
With confidence; assuredly.

That's the same thing. Either way, Nico asks "Are you saying we enter the womb a SECOND time? How is this possible?"

Jesus replies, "This is the truth, do not be shocked I have said these things. Only a man that is pure spirit can enter the Kingdom of God. He must be born again."

And I don't think he means Water in the physical sense, but in a metaphorical sense of what Water is composed of: it's pure and lately has been proven to have "memory." Perhaps he meant that we need to be true and pure at heart but also in touch with the Christ Conciousness of Water.

Ego Tripping · 10-18-2004, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funky_unkle

Ego,
the first passage you quoted reads to me as if Jesus said Nicodemus was wrong in seeing it as a physical rebirth.
Personally I can't find much support for reincarnation in the Bible, rather the opposite; a lot of passages talk about how we will die one day, + all it says about judgement, ruling out "many lives, many chances."

"Man dies once and then faces Judgement." But what after judgement? What if you your vibrational states were too low for Heaven but toohigh for Hell? Would the Soul sit in Limbo? I think this would be vey unfortunate for the Soul and for God since the Soul would never progress back to him. The only solution (to me) is to reincarnate, forget your past live(s), and try and gind your way to God again. It's true, we can only die once and face judgement once...for this life we are incarnating in.

funky_unkle · 10-18-2004, 03:38 PM

Valid points Ego, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find real biblical grounds for reincarnation. I'm not saying I know everything about the bible, but you'd have to cut and paste and interpret quite a lot (as in cults and crusades and personal preference).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ego Tripping

"Man dies once and then faces Judgement." But what after judgement? What if you your vibrational states were too low for Heaven but toohigh for Hell? Would the Soul sit in Limbo? I think this would be vey unfortunate for the Soul and for God since the Soul would never progress back to him. The only solution (to me) is to reincarnate, forget your past live(s), and try and gind your way to God again. It's true, we can only die once and face judgement once...for this life we are incarnating in.

AFAIK the Bible doesn't operate with the term "vibrational state," and I'm not sure what you mean by that.
But yea, unfortunate for the Soul and for God as you say. Hence the Cross.

Ego Tripping · 10-18-2004, 05:54 PM

"Religion without Science is blind, Sciene without Religion is lame."

Vibrational states is what composes the Universe IMO. The Spiritual Realm obviosly vibrates at a different frequency since we cannot see it around us. When we die, depending on our use of Free Will, the kind of person we are will determine our placement in the afterlife. The more pure you are (Christ Conciousness) the higher your vibrational patterns are, the higher you can ascend. Lower vibrational states (materialistic, evil, hardcore skeptic) either are thrown back into the mix or placed in realms lower than the Physical (nothingness, hell). Souls that don't fit either extreme are sent into the Physical with a chance to ascend. God has infinite mercy and will allow everyone a chance to be 'forgiven.'

Think of it this way: if someone didn't commit enough sin to be in Hell but not pure enough for Heaven, what would happen to them?

Check these articles out and let me know what you think.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen08.html

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen06.html

funky_unkle · 10-19-2004, 04:44 AM

I've spent a lot of time on that site earlier. I could have added my own experience, but I don't want to go back there even in memory.
I note that many of these NDEs disagree, and I'm not knowledgable enough to say exactly why.
I saw the bad side of it, so to speak. The scary part is that even if it kinda woke me up to reality, I still didn't change my ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ego Tripping

God has infinite mercy and will allow everyone a chance to be 'forgiven.'

Think of it this way: if someone didn't commit enough sin to be in Hell but not pure enough for Heaven, what would happen to them?

It's an old question; how can God be both perfect love and perfect justice?
You can store up treasures in heaven, and I assume the same goes for hell, only the other way. God already has allowed everyone a chance not only to be forgiven but the ability to continue to live right.
I think our view of "sin" is in a way too narrow and in a way too broad. A good and wise man once told me the definition of sin is "not doing what God wants you to do." Another one said sin means "missing the target." In other words, not living like you should. We can look at killers and rapists and wars and abuse and we're crying for justice.

When you meet God, you see yourself in a different light if you know what I mean.

Consider justice. It's not justice if it doesn't apply to everyone. Or if it doesn't apply to every thing. Speaking for myself, I don't want justice. I want mercy.

I think every day, every minute, is a second chance - that you have a lifetime to get things right. How many lives would someone need to prove what kind of man he is? Would I be a better person in another body in another time?

Ego Tripping · 10-19-2004, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funky_unkle

I've spent a lot of time on that site earlier. I could have added my own experience, but I don't want to go back there even in memory.
I note that many of these NDEs disagree, and I'm not knowledgable enough to say exactly why.

I don't find them disagreeing at all, and you'll be hard pressed to find any. If they do disagree, they should slightly since they are also unique per person.

Quote:

I saw the bad side of it, so to speak. The scary part is that even if it kinda woke me up to reality, I still didn't change my ways.

Quote:

It's an old question; how can God be both perfect love and perfect justice?

Because you judge yourself, not God...you simply compare to God who is 'perfect.'

Quote:

You can store up treasures in heaven, and I assume the same goes for hell, only the other way. God already has allowed everyone a chance not only to be forgiven but the ability to continue to live right.

What of those who were ignorant to 'the word'? What about a small child who lived in the jungle worshipping the plants around them (if anything). He neither knew Jesus or the Bible or anything in it. Is he condemned or rewarded?

Quote:

I think our view of "sin" is in a way too narrow and in a way too broad. A good and wise man once told me the definition of sin is "not doing what God wants you to do." Another one said sin means "missing the target." In other words, not living like you should. We can look at killers and rapists and wars and abuse and we're crying for justice.

Actually, the easy way to define Sin is anything that isn't beneficial to the progress of the human race.

Quote:

When you meet God, you see yourself in a different light if you know what I mean.

Indeed.

Quote:

Consider justice. It's not justice if it doesn't apply to everyone. Or if it doesn't apply to every thing. Speaking for myself, I don't want justice. I want mercy.

that's where I think the Bible has been interpreted incorrectly. If we live a Sinful life, we aren't condemned by God, but by ourselves. The sinful person most likely doesn't think there is a God of Love and denies him. I think once you die, whatever you think the afterlife will consist of, that's what you'll get due to your vibrational energies and where they fit. A sinful person obviously would vibrate low and mostly likely be placed 'away from God.' Or at least away from the light. God didn't condemn this soul...because the soul simply couldn't 'fit' into Heaven, it would be like putting a square peg into a round hole.

Quote:

I think every day, every minute, is a second chance - that you have a lifetime to get things right. How many lives would someone need to prove what kind of man he is? Would I be a better person in another body in another time?

Maybe the time we spend here is NOT enough to learn the true lessons of self realization and unconditional love/mercy. Since we do have the most powerful tool of them all, free will, nothings to say your life couldn't end tomorrow by the act of anothers free will. What if you never had the substantial chance? I think this is taken into account upon Death and reincarnation is required if the soul is to advance as quickly as needed. By that's just my opinion.

funky_unkle · 10-24-2004, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ego Tripping

Because you judge yourself, not God...you simply compare to God who is 'perfect.'

What of those who were ignorant to 'the word'? What about a small child who lived in the jungle worshipping the plants around them (if anything). He neither knew Jesus or the Bible or anything in it. Is he condemned or rewarded?

Again, if God is just, He'll judge justly. A few relevant quotes:
Luke 12:48
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment
will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much,
much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with
much, much more will be asked.
Rom 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else,
for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself,
because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's
judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things,
do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for
the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's
kindness leads you toward repentance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ego Tripping

Actually, the easy way to define Sin is anything that isn't beneficial to the progress of the human race.

Yes, assuming the human race has an innate worth (I'm sure we agree there). But we don't have obligations to just each others, but also ourselves, and not least God. IMO it's useless to argue about the 'finer' points of morality, we all have (more or less guilty) consciences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ego Tripping

that's where I think the Bible has been interpreted incorrectly. If we live a Sinful life, we aren't condemned by God, but by ourselves. The sinful person most likely doesn't think there is a God of Love and denies him. I think once you die, whatever you think the afterlife will consist of, that's what you'll get due to your vibrational energies and where they fit. A sinful person obviously would vibrate low and mostly likely be placed 'away from God.' Or at least away from the light. God didn't condemn this soul...because the soul simply couldn't 'fit' into Heaven, it would be like putting a square peg into a round hole.

A beautiful thought, but frankly I don't think we have the power to create our own afterlife, only choose it. You're right that God isn't out to condemn us (the Bible at least is littered with examples of that, not only from Jesus' mouth). There will be judgment though.
I don't know much about Hitler, but let's use him as an example of an utterly evil person; I find it hard to believe he's in some kind of heaven just because he believed strongly that that's where he'd end up.
Jesus said He didn't come to judge or accuse anyone, but rather that His words (our hearing them) would accuse people. Maybe too simply put, your conscience accuses you, God judges you. Make sense?

Ego Tripping · 10-24-2004, 01:52 PM

Makes perfect sense but I think it's a bit of a paradox. We are God and thus God would Himself? Or, perhaps, using the concious that you mention we all have, maybe He merely gives us a review of our lives and we get to experience it all again...the end result is knowing whether we are pure enough for Heaven and truly lived for God's purpose. I think God is such a loose term IMO and that since it refers to everything, we simply use God as a rule of thumb when we judge ourselves. It's the same thing either way IMO.

And I say the power to create the afterlife is exactly what we have because we truly have the power now to manifest Spirit into the Physical. We have the power to bring Heaven down to Earth if we chose to do so, but too many people either don't choose or even believe the choice exists. I think upon Death, our inner-most being is exposed and determining what we believe is what our afterlife will consist of. If you think Buddha is the way, and you lived a just and loving life, and feel that you will spend Eternity in a lush garden with the great Buddha masters, that is what you'll do. If you think you'll sleep to the Resurrection, you will, etc.. I think the power to manipulate spirit into physical and other dimensions is something Jesus mastered and preached (The Bible has many references to Jesus claiming we ARE God already, and can do just as he did). That's why he was here in the first place.

I think Evil people such as Hitler and others will receieve the afterlife they think is fit: a selfish, unforgiving and egocentric one. If they didn't follow the Light and all it stood for, the Light won't be there.

It's all so moot to think about though, IMO. What matters most to me is our actions here on Earth. Nobody knows what will happen on the crossover, whether it be heaven, hell, reincarnation or pure nothingness (ceasing to exist). But I know that my actions here will determine it as such and if I simply live in a fashion that helps others and the world, I will recieve the greatest of blessings.

Personally though, I feel reincarnation not only makes sense, but it is fair. It enables that every person will have a chance to find God.

Here's something to ponder: One of the many arguments against Reincarnation is that we cannot remember our past lives. But in John, Jesus states that every man that goes to heaven once came from Heaven. God is Eternal and Infinite, who created our souls, which are in turn, Eternal and Infinite. We already came from God, we've already been in Heaven...so why don't we remember it?

SweetSativa · 10-28-2004, 06:37 AM

I think that it's fascinating how so many people have known things since birth. Some of the things that I have personally encountered: someone who knew how to read hieroglyphics since birth, my sister's other mother in Hawaii, my son has many times referenced his life before he was born... and there are many others who are hypnotised and remember detailed accounts of lives that they are then oftentimes able to prove by finding the person's history and extended family whose life they were remembering.

Catholicism's Second Council of Church Fathers, in Constantinople in 553 A.D., deleted many direct references to reincarnation from the Bible. The dogma of Christianity conflicted with its principles concerning the following:

(a) Pre-existence of the soul before physical birth.
(b) Eternal damnation, blood salvation, and vicarious atonement.
(c) Resurrection of the physical body.
(d) Christ as a personal savior .
(e) Grace and Atonement.
(f) Original sin and being born a sinner .
(g) God is separate, and all action is outside of self .
(h) God should control all. God's will is paramount.
(i) Good works are not enough, for man is boastful.
(j) Only through faith can man be saved.
(k) Only Jesus Christ can pardon sins.
(1) Satan is a constant harassment.

After the council it became sacrilegious to question of the Lord's business or inquire as to where we have come from or to where we are going?

"Blessed are they who suffer many experiences, for they shall be made perfect: They shall be as the angels in Heaven and shall die no more, and neither shall they be reborn, for death and birth will no longer have dominion over them." Jesus, Gospel of the Holy Twelve
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Matthew 16:13-14
Too often, we take it upon ourselves to judge the path of another as 'correct' or 'incorrect'... and usually based upon knowledge that we feel that we have aquired. There is a reason for all things... and within all things are there miracles. Jesus did not discredit reincarnation, it was something that was basically taken for granted.... common knowledge. Many children who are brought up with Eastern beliefs, remember their past lives. imagine that! Having said that, believing or not believing in reincarnation is a personal decision that everyone must make for themselves, by looking inside and listening to what their hearts tell them. personally, I hope this is my last round.

TimeXzone · 10-28-2004, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ego Tripping

I decided to check John 3:16 (for no apparent reason, SweetSativa

) and found this interesting:

Now I know most Christians refer to being 'born again' as finding Jesus in your life, but Nico specifically mentioned being inside the mother's womb again.

Now I understand 3:16 better. We are constantly reincarnated until we learn to truly beleive in Christ enough to be pure enough to enter. Simply accepting Christ isn't access, but living as he did, a 'wayshower' of the perfect way of life. No religion required.

Crazy.

There are other places in the bible backing the idea that being "Born Again" is spiritual renewal through christ, not reincarnation.

Ego Tripping · 10-29-2004, 12:26 AM

There's also another set that doesn't ever define 'born again' as well as others that insinuate clearly it means to re-born into the Flesh again. Nico clearly stated entering the Womb a second time, and Jesus confirmed it. I mean, I don't know either and I constantly question it and wonder. But I think in my views, it fits much better to say we reincarnate. In my views, God doens't turn his back on any soul (infinite mercy) and reincarnation allows the universal law (eye for an eye) to be carried out while being merciful.

peon1313 · 10-29-2004, 03:00 AM

Hey you guys have quite a discussion going on here. I thought about this and got out a copy and looked at the whole section. This isn’t the only place in the New Testament where bodily reincarnation is at least skirted. Some of the people living at the time actually thought Jesus was the reincarnation of Elijah or Moses. But I’m not so sure that it actually takes reincarnation in the same direction as Hinduism. There were some early Christian groups that taught various forms of reincarnation…the Manicheans for instance.

Anyways I want to get to that chunk of scripture. This may go further than discussing only reincarnation so bare with me.

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 ”For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Now it seems to me like verses 1 and 2 are just setting the scene. He comes to Jesus and basically says that he was the real deal. A true Teacher. The signs Jesus had shown convinced him and his peers (certain Pharisees). Here’s where Jesus says, “Truly, truly…” for the first time. Notice it precedes what he says next. He tells Nicodemus that the man he was must die and he must be born again. Shocked, Nicodemus disbelievingly repeats what he thinks he heard Jesus say. It’s ridiculous to him (and to me) to think of a grown man being born again from the womb of a woman. But Jesus answers saying again “Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Now here it seems to me like water is being equated with the body and Spirit has to do with this rebirth. (And ‘Truly, truly’ goes with ‘unless one is born…’) “Now don’t be amazed” Jesus warns, “You must be born again.” He then goes onto talk about wind (which is Spirit, the Greek for Spirit/wind is pneuma. Most of the world’s religious traditions equate wind and spirit, i.e. we have the spirit of God moving over the water in Genesis…again wind and water). The wind is another baptism different from water. He is in essence saying, ‘no it is not a physical birth like birth from a woman symbolized by water but a spiritual birth from God symbolized by wind (and fire in some places).’ It’s also interesting that this is what differentiates himself from all the other baptizing groups around at the time. His teaching went further than theirs. He was saying that his teaching was an evolution of his cousins teaching. John the BAPTIST. That’s cool sh*t right there! So well written and so full of context and back-story. Basically Jesus was John’s student, then he went on to start his own following that went beyond John’s. I imagine there were some of John’s group that followed Jesus after he and John went their separate ways. (I’ll have to look into whether this was because of John’s imprisonment or because they had a difference of opinion forcing a split.) His next sentence further removes himself from John’s teaching. It’s very important that he says this next.

“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”

That could be a key difference between what he offers and what John’s “school” did. Jesus says no one has ascended into heaven except humanity itself which came from God in the first place (son of man means human being). This makes me wonder if John taught that Jesus was the literal Son of God or some other type of apocalyptic/messianic figure, and Jesus disagreed saying, ‘I am a human (son of man) just like you…we are all God’s children and in that way I Am one with the Father.’ That could be a big enough disagreement to force them to go different ways…I mean; it’s a major eschatological difference. We have the same question still around today, “Was Jesus THE SON OF GOD or was he just a man regardless of how enlightened he was? Are we all ‘Sons of God’ or was that ONLY Jesus?”

Then he goes on to do another pretty shocking thing. He likens himself to a serpent! This animal does not have a good reputation in Judaism, though in this case he is referring to another shocking moment from the Torah…when Moses made and held up an idol so that those who looked on it lived. Just like that situation in Numbers, when one believes in this man (snake) he will live eternally. This must’ve been bizarre! No wonder the pious and religious authority hated him.

The last part is just as shocking to the old traditions. He seems to dismiss the afterlife in favor of saying judgment happens here and now. Those who do evil suffer now. There evil and disgraceful deeds are their punishment. They hate the light and that is punishment enough...Their life is sort of a living death. Those who love the light are alive now and forever (I guess because forever is now).

Man, if you said most of that stuff that Jesus said to your local pastor his head would explode. It smacks of sacrilege!

Wow! Anyways back to reincarnation.

In Matthew 11:14 Jesus states that John is the reincarnation but he adds the eyewink at the end as if to say, “If you understand what I mean when I say that.”

"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.
15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Interesting here, is that the people seem to be expecting a bodily reincarnation of Elijah.

Matthew 16:14 has the people thinking Jesus is a reincarnation of John, Elijah, Jeremiah or one of the prophets. Jesus almost always agrees with this kind of talk, but always with a wink, again as if to say, “If you get what I mean.”

Perhaps he means I come in the spirit of Elijah, but I am Jesus. I come in the same spirit as Jeremiah but in another body and with another intellect. I am Jesus.

Remember, in the spirit all things are one. Truth is truth. In fact, right now, if I am right, though I come to you in the same spirit of truth as Jesus, I am Jason…not a reincarnation of Jesus. You see the difference? Instead of explaining all that I could just say, “Yes” with a wink and a nod.

What do you think?

Well, that was fun. Thanks for a good topic.

jc

SweetSativa · 10-29-2004, 05:42 AM

I do think that there is a difference between being born (again) of spirit and being reincarnated... and I do feel that Jesus speaks of being born of spirit. I also feel that there is reincarnation... this is a type of "hell", if you who believe that way must have a hell. Eternal damnation is a thing of the mind... and that is a dangerous thing because this belief makes it quite real. We can spend our lives searching the doctrines to learn of God (God is Love... says so in your bible... plain and simple) or we can look within... where we know that all things lie. We can open to the Word... I look to the scriptures only when they beckon to me.

God speaks to us WHERE WE ARE... He knows us and invites us to experience Him. "come to me in song..." Come to me in song...

Ego Tripping · 10-29-2004, 09:03 AM

For me, Reincarnation seems more 'fair' as well for premature endings of life. For example, a young 3 year old or 12 year old that dies. Granted they 'played a purpose in the divine plan' but they also never had a fair chance to experience the beauty of the Material...I feel this was our chance to give back to God and most of us have failed miserably or never had a fair chance because the Free Will of another human being ended their lives early. Reincarnation gives that soul the chance to develop and at the same time, serve God's purpose and give back Glory and Love.

I do not think we are to be born and die once because that would entail that Heaven has no progress except through observance. Experience is the ultimate teacher and if we aren't reincarnated into this World, we will on another one simply to learn. I heard a quote, 'The path to know God better will take an eternity to complete."

I tripped myself out to think...from God's perspective, He is Space-Time. If the Universe follows the cycle of the spiral which I think it will, it will collapse on itself and then explode again (repeat: infinity). For God, this probably is happening had a rate so fast our existance is really an "exhale" of God's breath. For us, that's approx. 14.5 Billion Years but only because we measure by the physical.

Ego Tripping · 10-29-2004, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peon1313

Perhaps he means I come in the spirit of Elijah, but I am Jesus. I come in the same spirit as Jeremiah but in another body and with another intellect. I am Jesus.

jc

That is essentially, reincarnation (not sure if that's what you were insinuating). I am the same Soul I always was since pre-creation but I am with another body which entails another intellect/ego.

This of course can be stretched out to that we are all the same Soul, reincarnated into different bodies/intellects to develop individuality, to in turn combine yet again and return to God (the spiral)

.

supermarket :) · 11-01-2004, 08:11 PM

I didnt read all the replies, but:

1) The first quote in the thread of the bible is interpretted wrong.

Jesus means you must be born again in the SPIRIT, not the flesh, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. This has nothing to do with reincarnation.

2) Elijah was reincarnted into John the Baptist, the bible says so.

10-18-2004, 05:05 AM	#24 (permalink)
funky_unkle free Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: ) Posts: 1,737 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ego, I think the greek word for "verily" is "amen." It's doesn't mean "yeah you're right," but rather "listen up, this here is the truth right here ->" And then He says "water and Spirit," as in a spiritual sense, not physical. Peach/Deadhead, are you saying an amoeba can be a good amoeba? I don't get that. __________________ A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you." The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

10-24-2004, 01:52 PM	#32 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,461 Thanks: 229 Thanked 657 Times in 438 Posts	Makes perfect sense but I think it's a bit of a paradox. We are God and thus God would Himself? Or, perhaps, using the concious that you mention we all have, maybe He merely gives us a review of our lives and we get to experience it all again...the end result is knowing whether we are pure enough for Heaven and truly lived for God's purpose. I think God is such a loose term IMO and that since it refers to everything, we simply use God as a rule of thumb when we judge ourselves. It's the same thing either way IMO. And I say the power to create the afterlife is exactly what we have because we truly have the power now to manifest Spirit into the Physical. We have the power to bring Heaven down to Earth if we chose to do so, but too many people either don't choose or even believe the choice exists. I think upon Death, our inner-most being is exposed and determining what we believe is what our afterlife will consist of. If you think Buddha is the way, and you lived a just and loving life, and feel that you will spend Eternity in a lush garden with the great Buddha masters, that is what you'll do. If you think you'll sleep to the Resurrection, you will, etc.. I think the power to manipulate spirit into physical and other dimensions is something Jesus mastered and preached (The Bible has many references to Jesus claiming we ARE God already, and can do just as he did). That's why he was here in the first place. I think Evil people such as Hitler and others will receieve the afterlife they think is fit: a selfish, unforgiving and egocentric one. If they didn't follow the Light and all it stood for, the Light won't be there. It's all so moot to think about though, IMO. What matters most to me is our actions here on Earth. Nobody knows what will happen on the crossover, whether it be heaven, hell, reincarnation or pure nothingness (ceasing to exist). But I know that my actions here will determine it as such and if I simply live in a fashion that helps others and the world, I will recieve the greatest of blessings. Personally though, I feel reincarnation not only makes sense, but it is fair. It enables that every person will have a chance to find God. Here's something to ponder: One of the many arguments against Reincarnation is that we cannot remember our past lives. But in John, Jesus states that every man that goes to heaven once came from Heaven. God is Eternal and Infinite, who created our souls, which are in turn, Eternal and Infinite. We already came from God, we've already been in Heaven...so why don't we remember it? __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

10-28-2004, 06:37 AM	#33 (permalink)
SweetSativa Lucid Daydreamer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,930 Thanks: 26 Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts	I think that it's fascinating how so many people have known things since birth. Some of the things that I have personally encountered: someone who knew how to read hieroglyphics since birth, my sister's other mother in Hawaii, my son has many times referenced his life before he was born... and there are many others who are hypnotised and remember detailed accounts of lives that they are then oftentimes able to prove by finding the person's history and extended family whose life they were remembering. Catholicism's Second Council of Church Fathers, in Constantinople in 553 A.D., deleted many direct references to reincarnation from the Bible. The dogma of Christianity conflicted with its principles concerning the following: (a) Pre-existence of the soul before physical birth. (b) Eternal damnation, blood salvation, and vicarious atonement. (c) Resurrection of the physical body. (d) Christ as a personal savior . (e) Grace and Atonement. (f) Original sin and being born a sinner . (g) God is separate, and all action is outside of self . (h) God should control all. God's will is paramount. (i) Good works are not enough, for man is boastful. (j) Only through faith can man be saved. (k) Only Jesus Christ can pardon sins. (1) Satan is a constant harassment. After the council it became sacrilegious to question of the Lord's business or inquire as to where we have come from or to where we are going? "Blessed are they who suffer many experiences, for they shall be made perfect: They shall be as the angels in Heaven and shall die no more, and neither shall they be reborn, for death and birth will no longer have dominion over them." Jesus, Gospel of the Holy Twelve When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Matthew 16:13-14 Too often, we take it upon ourselves to judge the path of another as 'correct' or 'incorrect'... and usually based upon knowledge that we feel that we have aquired. There is a reason for all things... and within all things are there miracles. Jesus did not discredit reincarnation, it was something that was basically taken for granted.... common knowledge. Many children who are brought up with Eastern beliefs, remember their past lives. imagine that! Having said that, believing or not believing in reincarnation is a personal decision that everyone must make for themselves, by looking inside and listening to what their hearts tell them. personally, I hope this is my last round. __________________ "Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

10-29-2004, 12:26 AM	#35 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,461 Thanks: 229 Thanked 657 Times in 438 Posts	There's also another set that doesn't ever define 'born again' as well as others that insinuate clearly it means to re-born into the Flesh again. Nico clearly stated entering the Womb a second time, and Jesus confirmed it. I mean, I don't know either and I constantly question it and wonder. But I think in my views, it fits much better to say we reincarnate. In my views, God doens't turn his back on any soul (infinite mercy) and reincarnation allows the universal law (eye for an eye) to be carried out while being merciful. __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

10-29-2004, 03:00 AM	#36 (permalink)
peon1313 Old School Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 435 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey you guys have quite a discussion going on here. I thought about this and got out a copy and looked at the whole section. This isn’t the only place in the New Testament where bodily reincarnation is at least skirted. Some of the people living at the time actually thought Jesus was the reincarnation of Elijah or Moses. But I’m not so sure that it actually takes reincarnation in the same direction as Hinduism. There were some early Christian groups that taught various forms of reincarnation…the Manicheans for instance. Anyways I want to get to that chunk of scripture. This may go further than discussing only reincarnation so bare with me. 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 ”For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." Now it seems to me like verses 1 and 2 are just setting the scene. He comes to Jesus and basically says that he was the real deal. A true Teacher. The signs Jesus had shown convinced him and his peers (certain Pharisees). Here’s where Jesus says, “Truly, truly…” for the first time. Notice it precedes what he says next. He tells Nicodemus that the man he was must die and he must be born again. Shocked, Nicodemus disbelievingly repeats what *he thinks* he heard Jesus say. It’s ridiculous to him (and to me) to think of a grown man being born again from the womb of a woman. But Jesus answers saying again “Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Now here it seems to me like water is being equated with the body and Spirit has to do with this rebirth. (And ‘Truly, truly’ goes with ‘unless one is born…’) “Now don’t be amazed” Jesus warns, “You must be born again.” He then goes onto talk about wind (which is Spirit, the Greek for Spirit/wind is pneuma. Most of the world’s religious traditions equate wind and spirit, i.e. we have the spirit of God moving over the water in Genesis…again wind and water). The wind is another baptism different from water. He is in essence saying, ‘no it is not a physical birth like birth from a woman symbolized by water but a spiritual birth from God symbolized by wind (and fire in some places).’ It’s also interesting that this is what differentiates himself from all the other baptizing groups around at the time. His teaching went further than theirs. He was saying that his teaching was an evolution of his cousins teaching. John the BAPTIST. That’s cool sht right there! So well written and so full of context and back-story. Basically Jesus was John’s student, then he went on to start his own following that went beyond John’s. I imagine there were some of John’s group that followed Jesus after he and John went their separate ways. (I’ll have to look into whether this was because of John’s imprisonment or because they had a difference of opinion forcing a split.) His next sentence further removes himself from John’s teaching. It’s very important that he says this next. “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” That could be a key difference between what he offers and what John’s “school” did. Jesus says no one has ascended into heaven except humanity itself which came from God in the first place (son of man means human being). This makes me wonder if John taught that Jesus was the literal Son of God or some other type of apocalyptic/messianic figure, and Jesus disagreed saying, ‘I am a human (son of man) just like you…we are all God’s children and in that way I Am one with the Father.’ That could be a big enough disagreement to force them to go different ways…I mean; it’s a major* eschatological difference. We have the same question still around today, “Was Jesus THE SON OF GOD or was he just a man regardless of how enlightened he was? Are we all ‘Sons of God’ or was that ONLY Jesus?” Then he goes on to do another pretty shocking thing. He likens himself to a serpent! This animal does not have a good reputation in Judaism, though in this case he is referring to another shocking moment from the Torah…when Moses made and held up an idol so that those who looked on it lived. Just like that situation in Numbers, when one believes in this man (snake) he will live eternally. This must’ve been bizarre! No wonder the pious and religious authority hated him. The last part is just as shocking to the old traditions. He seems to dismiss the afterlife in favor of saying judgment happens here and now. Those who do evil suffer now. There evil and disgraceful deeds are their punishment. They hate the light and that is punishment enough...Their life is sort of a living death. Those who love the light are alive now and forever (I guess because forever is now). Man, if you said most of that stuff that Jesus said to your local pastor his head would explode. It smacks of sacrilege! Wow! Anyways back to reincarnation. In Matthew 11:14 Jesus states that John is the reincarnation but he adds the eyewink at the end as if to say, “If you understand what I mean when I say that.” "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. 15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” Interesting here, is that the people seem to be expecting a bodily reincarnation of Elijah. Matthew 16:14 has the people thinking Jesus is a reincarnation of John, Elijah, Jeremiah or one of the prophets. Jesus almost always agrees with this kind of talk, but always with a wink, again as if to say, “If you get what I mean.” Perhaps he means I come in the spirit of Elijah, but I am Jesus. I come in the same spirit as Jeremiah but in another body and with another intellect. I am Jesus. Remember, in the spirit all things are one. Truth is truth. In fact, right now, if I am right, though I come to you in the same spirit of truth as Jesus, I am Jason…not a reincarnation of Jesus. You see the difference? Instead of explaining all that I could just say, “Yes” with a wink and a nod. What do you think? Well, that was fun. Thanks for a good topic. jc __________________ The Universe itself can be called a myth, since bodies and material objects are apparent in it, while souls and intellects are concealed. -- Sallustius

10-18-2004, 05:54 PM	#28 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,461 Thanks: 229 Thanked 657 Times in 438 Posts	"Religion without Science is blind, Sciene without Religion is lame." Vibrational states is what composes the Universe IMO. The Spiritual Realm obviosly vibrates at a different frequency since we cannot see it around us. When we die, depending on our use of Free Will, the kind of person we are will determine our placement in the afterlife. The more pure you are (Christ Conciousness) the higher your vibrational patterns are, the higher you can ascend. Lower vibrational states (materialistic, evil, hardcore skeptic) either are thrown back into the mix or placed in realms lower than the Physical (nothingness, hell). Souls that don't fit either extreme are sent into the Physical with a chance to ascend. God has infinite mercy and will allow everyone a chance to be 'forgiven.' Think of it this way: if someone didn't commit enough sin to be in Hell but not pure enough for Heaven, what would happen to them? Check these articles out and let me know what you think. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen03.html http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen08.html http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen06.html

10-29-2004, 05:42 AM	#37 (permalink)
SweetSativa Lucid Daydreamer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,930 Thanks: 26 Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts	I do think that there is a difference between being born (again) of spirit and being reincarnated... and I do feel that Jesus speaks of being born of spirit. I also feel that there is reincarnation... this is a type of "hell", if you who believe that way must have a hell. Eternal damnation is a thing of the mind... and that is a dangerous thing because this belief makes it quite real. We can spend our lives searching the doctrines to learn of God (God is Love... says so in your bible... plain and simple) or we can look within... where we know that all things lie. We can open to the Word... I look to the scriptures only when they beckon to me. God speaks to us WHERE WE ARE... He knows us and invites us to experience Him. "come to me in song..." Come to me in song... __________________ "Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

10-29-2004, 09:03 AM	#38 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,461 Thanks: 229 Thanked 657 Times in 438 Posts	For me, Reincarnation seems more 'fair' as well for premature endings of life. For example, a young 3 year old or 12 year old that dies. Granted they 'played a purpose in the divine plan' but they also never had a fair chance to experience the beauty of the Material...I feel this was our chance to give back to God and most of us have failed miserably or never had a fair chance because the Free Will of another human being ended their lives early. Reincarnation gives that soul the chance to develop and at the same time, serve God's purpose and give back Glory and Love. I do not think we are to be born and die once because that would entail that Heaven has no progress except through observance. Experience is the ultimate teacher and if we aren't reincarnated into this World, we will on another one simply to learn. I heard a quote, 'The path to know God better will take an eternity to complete." I tripped myself out to think...from God's perspective, He is Space-Time. If the Universe follows the cycle of the spiral which I think it will, it will collapse on itself and then explode again (repeat: infinity). For God, this probably is happening had a rate so fast our existance is really an "exhale" of God's breath. For us, that's approx. 14.5 Billion Years but only because we measure by the physical. __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

11-01-2004, 08:11 PM	#40 (permalink)
supermarket :) -2012- Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Scaryetta, GA Posts: 7,619 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	I didnt read all the replies, but: 1) The first quote in the thread of the bible is interpretted wrong. Jesus means you must be born again in the SPIRIT, not the flesh, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. This has nothing to do with reincarnation. 2) Elijah was reincarnted into John the Baptist, the bible says so.

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