Subjectivity and Objectivity

Mescalito · 06-02-2005, 11:08 AM

Based on Egotripping's defintions...

Quote:

'Objective: We all see same thing in the same way.

Subjective: We all see same thing in different ways.'

Which one best suits the way you see your reality and the people in it?

I personally think everything is subjective.. and i like the deifinition posted by Snapshot.. that objectivity is GODs view.

M

Waves · 06-02-2005, 11:13 AM

Subjective and objective are simply two different perspectives on the same thing. Like "Ugly" and "Handsome" both describe a face, or a body. Subjectivity is the part that we cant see. If we saw subjectivity, it would merely be an objective VIEW of this object, correct? So even viewing subjectivity in itself is a contradiction. Pure subjectivity is not seen, or felt, or tasted, or heard. It is experienced.

That is why I believe we have objectivity. To limit ourselves and see things from different perspectives. Actually, i KNOW that is why we have objectivity, but knowing is irrelevent. You must experience.

Ego Tripping · 06-02-2005, 11:48 AM

^ Word.

I know there is an objective reality out there for me when I become open minded enough to see it (transcendence). Think of Existance as Water and your consiousness is the straw. Your 'open-minded-ness' is the size of the Straw itself. Your experiences are the suction which draws the information to you. The more you are open to ALL information, no matter how contradictory it might be to your 'belief system', the bigger the straw and thus the more information is recieved. Once you get to a certain point, you aren't even using the straw but rather have immersed yourself in Objective reality. Hmm...I like this analogy, I'm going to use it again.

Once you know nothing, you'll know everything (which is nothing).

SsiK · 06-03-2005, 01:45 AM

Tell me if I have this right: So "subjectivity" is basically your ego coming into play to judge things, based off of experience, memories, feelings, thought, etc., whereas if you were to view things more objectively (physical reality) you would basically be analyzing things from all different angles and not forming [biased] opinions on them. Is this the basic, more elaborate concept?

SweetSativa · 06-03-2005, 08:51 AM

I feel that it is impossible to see things completely objectively from our current state of being. I strive to be objective but everything is subjective to my perception of it.

Canuck Wisdom · 06-03-2005, 09:00 AM

I also think objectivity is Gods view. Or the view of a human who is as close to God as possible, i.e. Jesus.

Waves · 06-03-2005, 01:34 PM

il make it real simple.

objective - seperate from you
subjective - part of you

SweetSativa · 06-03-2005, 03:25 PM

^My point is that EVERYTHING is a part of you. It may be easier to be more objective about 'someone' or 'something' that you are far from or detached from but it is still subject to your perspective... everything is perceived and defined by you and there's nothing you can do about it.... it's just the way that it is.

snapshot · 06-03-2005, 03:28 PM

Everything is part of you but you can't view yourself objectively. Because a part of you will still be viewing you, always keeping the view subjective.

We're all saying the same thing differently! This is insane! Subjectivity incarnate!

Waves · 06-03-2005, 03:29 PM

please kindly explain to me how this keyboard im writing on is a part of me

And yes, everything is percieved by you but it is by NO MEANS defined by you. When a child sees a giraffe for the first time, they might think "dog". But later they are taught it is a giraffe.

Everything is indeed subject to your perspective but does that mean that it is a PART of you? I believe in our "true" form we dont even HAVE any "parts". There is no such thing as SPACE or TIME in true subjectivity, anyways. Even your arms and legs are only rentals from good ol mother E.

Waves · 06-03-2005, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snapshot182

Everything is part of you but you can't view yourself objectively. Because a part of you will still be viewing you, always keeping the view subjective.[/SIZE]

The part of you that you are viewing is obviously objective. You have created a temporary barrier between the YOU perceiving and the YOU being percieved. You have objectified yourself.

SweetSativa · 06-03-2005, 03:30 PM

^

Hehe ... but lez see how many different ways we can see it

Existance is God expressing itself in every way imaginable.

(I think

)

snapshot · 06-03-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

The part of you that you are viewing is obviously objective. You have created a temporary barrier between the YOU perceiving and the YOU being percieved. You have objectified yourself.

But look at the "You" at the beginning of your second sentence. YOU have created a temporary barrier. The barrier is completely subjective because we have no physical, objective form for a barrier that everyone uses. Everyone's barrier is going to be different which means that everyone's objectivity is going to be different. It's just subjectivity in disguise!

Waves · 06-03-2005, 03:36 PM

we just crosss posted, lol.

Quote:

Existance is God expressing itself in every way imaginable. (I think

)

EXACTLY. So to do this we create OBJECTIVE barriers. That the only way to experiance things like poverty, sex, murder, and every other experience people go through in their lives. The trouble comes when people REALIZE this. They might be liable to think that someone PUT us here to TRAP us.(hinduism) or they might believe that to get out of this place we have to explore various altered states like meditation, etc etc ETC.

Realizing that life is an experience does not make it less real, it doesnt make it less enjoyable. If anything it makes it MORE enjoyable because you dont have to worry about dieing or messing up. When most of your fears are taken away, or even put up against the bigger picture, you will become a much better person. And i used to be an atheist.

Quote:

But look at the "You" at the beginning of your second sentence. YOU have created a temporary barrier. The barrier is completely subjective because we have no physical, objective form for a barrier that everyone uses. Everyone's barrier is going to be different which means that everyone's objectivity is going to be different. It's just subjectivity in disguise!

YOUR RIGHT! YOUVE GOT IT! i give you a cookie for realizing that this.

everything we percieve/experience IS subjectivity in desguise! but does that make the objective side less real? no! objectivity is there for us to enjoy

When you have a conversation with someone, the talk is literally "surface chatter". Because whats really happening is an exchange of subjective energy. The talk is the cover-up. Even this message board, every person on this board does this. We just dont realize it because we arent aware of it.

snapshot · 06-03-2005, 03:55 PM

I don't know how I managed to agree with you but I already forgot how I wrote that. There might be a misprint somewhere. If anything YOU get a cookie for finally seeing it MY way.

Waves · 06-03-2005, 04:06 PM

hahaha, someones a little egotistical. Its ok though, i know how it feels to need to be right. at least your being "logical" now. the thing is neither of us are stupid and we are both describing the same thing. I can just explain myself better.

you can create an objective barrier in your mind(which, may i remind you, is an entirely different area of consciousness). IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOUR BARRIER IS THE SAME AS SOMEONE ELSES. The fact is that you objectified yourself, which you previously said was impossible. Of course everyone is going to have a different barrier, this whole process is taking place in a more subjective area of consciousness! You couldnt, for example, create this imaginary barrier in the physical world because the physical world is objective.

i really dont see how its that hard to comprehend

or even argue against. But I guess if you look through posts digging for a counterpoint, you would miss the whole point completely(we all interpret our own subjective meanings out of objective words and text.) and instead create this new topic of "counterpoint" in your head(subjective idea lodged in your imagination), which you then manifest into the physical universe through a message board...(You leave your objective concepts in what we call a "post")

Then I come along, take your objective words, interpret them into my area of consciousness, and reply with my own set of objective words. like im doing right now

My point is, you posting is an END RESULT of consciousness. Your idea first was drawn from pure subjectivity (F4) when you were born. You see my post, so my OBJECTIVE WORDS(please try to argue how my words on this message board can be in any way subjective) are transformed into subjective concepts in F2... Your pure subjective energy is drawn upon to form an objective idea, usually in the form of a voice in ones head. (The same voice you hear reading you this post right now

). Then the idea is drawn from your F2 into your F1...or physical reality. The end result.

snapshot · 06-03-2005, 04:23 PM

Well you don't have to be a dick, dick.

I'm saying that it not about letting myself convince myself of another belief, its like I'm looking for a stepping stone to this thought that connects it to this pretend set of belief systems I have. I may have made the bridge to see the reason, but I need a reason to want to associate with that idea, if such a logical idea even exists.

Waves · 06-03-2005, 04:28 PM

sorry im not trying to be mean i promise. im just really passionate about this subject

anways, your belief systems are NOT pretend. Like i said earlier there is ABSOLUTELY no way to shed all of your beliefs. Even believing that gravity is a belief system like I do is STILL a belief system. as you know, believing that the world is pretend wont save you from a 10 thousand foot fall.

All you can do is accept it. But then again, if you dont WANT to accept it, thats your choice, and i dont want to go forcing anyone to do anything. its your life

ALL ideas exist. Wether or not you want to be a part of them is up to you.

Ego Tripping · 06-03-2005, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

sorry im not trying to be mean i promise. im just really passionate about this subject

anways, your belief systems are NOT pretend. Like i said earlier there is ABSOLUTELY no way to shed all of your beliefs. Even believing that gravity is a belief system like I do is STILL a belief system. as you know, believing that the world is pretend wont save you from a 10 thousand foot fall.

All you can do is accept it. But then again, if you dont WANT to accept it, thats your choice, and i dont want to go forcing anyone to do anything. its your life

ALL ideas exist. Wether or not you want to be a part of them is up to you.

I was thinking about this EXACTLY today. It's impossible to shed ALL our beliefs and remain completely open...and besides, that's not the point of this existance. We forget so we can focus our Consciousness and learn HOW to manipulate existance itself...and that can only happen if we choose a "Tool" (ie..a belief system). None are erroneous since we are creating them to begin with and any creation is wonderful.

snapshot · 06-03-2005, 05:24 PM

I just realized that what I meant by "subjectivity in disguise", the guise was objectivity. If I'm not saying that right: what is being disguised is subjectivity, the guise, or mask, is objectivity. Although it isn't always enough to say that just because something is an "illusion" doesn't mean you can't not explain it.

I have my own agenda for how I plan to solve this.

06-02-2005, 11:13 AM	#2 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	Subjective and objective are simply two different perspectives on the same thing. Like "Ugly" and "Handsome" both describe a face, or a body. Subjectivity is the part that we cant see. If we saw subjectivity, it would merely be an objective VIEW of this object, correct? So even viewing subjectivity in itself is a contradiction. Pure subjectivity is not seen, or felt, or tasted, or heard. It is experienced. That is why I believe we have objectivity. To limit ourselves and see things from different perspectives. Actually, i KNOW that is why we have objectivity, but knowing is irrelevent. You must experience. __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

06-02-2005, 11:48 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,468 Thanks: 229 Thanked 665 Times in 443 Posts	^ Word. I know there is an objective reality out there for me when I become open minded enough to see it (transcendence). Think of Existance as Water and your consiousness is the straw. Your 'open-minded-ness' is the size of the Straw itself. Your experiences are the suction which draws the information to you. The more you are open to ALL information, no matter how contradictory it might be to your 'belief system', the bigger the straw and thus the more information is recieved. Once you get to a certain point, you aren't even using the straw but rather have immersed yourself in Objective reality. Hmm...I like this analogy, I'm going to use it again. Once you know nothing, you'll know everything (which is nothing). __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

06-03-2005, 01:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
SsiK IRATE!!!!!!!!!! Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 742 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tell me if I have this right: So "subjectivity" is basically your ego coming into play to judge things, based off of experience, memories, feelings, thought, etc., whereas if you were to view things more objectively (physical reality) you would basically be analyzing things from all different angles and not forming [biased] opinions on them. Is this the basic, more elaborate concept? __________________ Rock on dude. Yep you know it... I'm pissed!

06-03-2005, 08:51 AM	#5 (permalink)
SweetSativa Lucid Daydreamer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,930 Thanks: 26 Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts	I feel that it is impossible to see things completely objectively from our current state of being. I strive to be objective but everything is subjective to my perception of it. __________________ "Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

06-03-2005, 01:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	il make it real simple. objective - seperate from you subjective - part of you __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

06-03-2005, 03:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
SweetSativa Lucid Daydreamer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,930 Thanks: 26 Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts	^My point is that EVERYTHING is a part of you. It may be easier to be more objective about 'someone' or 'something' that you are far from or detached from but it is still subject to your perspective... everything is perceived and defined by you and there's nothing you can do about it.... it's just the way that it is. __________________ "Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

06-03-2005, 03:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
snapshot no custom. customize Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The unOriginal Rorschach. Posts: 19,302 Thanks: 15 Thanked 22 Times in 21 Posts	Everything is part of you but you can't view yourself objectively. Because a part of you will still be viewing you, always keeping the view subjective. We're all saying the same thing differently! This is insane! Subjectivity incarnate! __________________ We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. -Richard Dawkins

06-03-2005, 03:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	please kindly explain to me how this keyboard im writing on is a part of me And yes, everything is percieved by you but it is by NO MEANS defined by you. When a child sees a giraffe for the first time, they might think "dog". But later they are taught it is a giraffe. Everything is indeed subject to your perspective but does that mean that it is a PART of you? I believe in our "true" form we dont even HAVE any "parts". There is no such thing as SPACE or TIME in true subjectivity, anyways. Even your arms and legs are only rentals from good ol mother E. __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

06-03-2005, 03:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
SweetSativa Lucid Daydreamer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,930 Thanks: 26 Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts	^ Hehe ... but lez see how many different ways we can see it Existance is God expressing itself in every way imaginable. (I think ) __________________ "Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

06-03-2005, 03:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
snapshot no custom. customize Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The unOriginal Rorschach. Posts: 19,302 Thanks: 15 Thanked 22 Times in 21 Posts	I don't know how I managed to agree with you but I already forgot how I wrote that. There might be a misprint somewhere. If anything YOU get a cookie for finally seeing it MY way. __________________ We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. -Richard Dawkins

06-03-2005, 04:06 PM	#16 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	hahaha, someones a little egotistical. Its ok though, i know how it feels to need to be right. at least your being "logical" now. the thing is neither of us are stupid and we are both describing the same thing. I can just explain myself better. you can create an objective barrier in your mind(which, may i remind you, is an entirely different area of consciousness). IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOUR BARRIER IS THE SAME AS SOMEONE ELSES. The fact is that you objectified yourself, which you previously said was impossible. Of course everyone is going to have a different barrier, this whole process is taking place in a more subjective area of consciousness! You couldnt, for example, create this imaginary barrier in the physical world because the physical world is objective. i really dont see how its that hard to comprehend or even argue against. But I guess if you look through posts digging for a counterpoint, you would miss the whole point completely(we all interpret our own subjective meanings out of objective words and text.) and instead create this new topic of "counterpoint" in your head(subjective idea lodged in your imagination), which you then manifest into the physical universe through a message board...(You leave your objective concepts in what we call a "post") Then I come along, take your objective words, interpret them into my area of consciousness, and reply with my own set of objective words. like im doing right now My point is, you posting is an END RESULT of consciousness. Your idea first was drawn from pure subjectivity (F4) when you were born. You see my post, so my OBJECTIVE WORDS(please try to argue how my words on this message board can be in any way subjective) are transformed into subjective concepts in F2... Your pure subjective energy is drawn upon to form an objective idea, usually in the form of a voice in ones head. (The same voice you hear reading you this post right now ). Then the idea is drawn from your F2 into your F1...or physical reality. The end result. __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

06-03-2005, 04:23 PM	#17 (permalink)
snapshot no custom. customize Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The unOriginal Rorschach. Posts: 19,302 Thanks: 15 Thanked 22 Times in 21 Posts	Well you don't have to be a dick, dick. I'm saying that it not about letting myself convince myself of another belief, its like I'm looking for a stepping stone to this thought that connects it to this pretend set of belief systems I have. I may have made the bridge to see the reason, but I need a reason to want to associate with that idea, if such a logical idea even exists. __________________ We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. -Richard Dawkins

06-03-2005, 04:28 PM	#18 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	sorry im not trying to be mean i promise. im just really passionate about this subject anways, your belief systems are NOT pretend. Like i said earlier there is ABSOLUTELY no way to shed all of your beliefs. Even believing that gravity is a belief system like I do is STILL a belief system. as you know, believing that the world is pretend wont save you from a 10 thousand foot fall. All you can do is accept it. But then again, if you dont WANT to accept it, thats your choice, and i dont want to go forcing anyone to do anything. its your life ALL ideas exist. Wether or not you want to be a part of them is up to you. __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

06-03-2005, 05:24 PM	#20 (permalink)
snapshot no custom. customize Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The unOriginal Rorschach. Posts: 19,302 Thanks: 15 Thanked 22 Times in 21 Posts	I just realized that what I meant by "subjectivity in disguise", the guise was objectivity. If I'm not saying that right: what is being disguised is subjectivity, the guise, or mask, is objectivity. Although it isn't always enough to say that just because something is an "illusion" doesn't mean you can't not explain it. I have my own agenda for how I plan to solve this. __________________ We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. -Richard Dawkins

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