If God were known to exist...

Hedons · 08-03-2005, 08:02 PM

If God were known to exist, would moral choice end?

If we knew God existed and would punish us for evil acts, then good acts would be much less freely chosen. Is element of unknowability about God necessary as to allow us free will? In order to choose good over evil, we must feel free to do bad, and we would not feel this way if we had definite knowledge that God was present and recording our every action.

How much choice do you have to speed when you are in the lane next to a cop?

-Hedons

snapshot · 08-03-2005, 08:30 PM

Can you describe the miracle that would occur that caused everyone to believe in science first? Then I could fathom how everyone would know and accept something like that.

edit: Its it more likely we would discover the existence of God than discover how to get everyone to believe it.

ziplock · 08-03-2005, 09:36 PM

most likely, unless it followed some revelations like discovery.

that seems to be the real key. god seemed to be kickin around for a while, stirring shit up, smiting homosexuals, freeing slaves, splitting seas, then he ran off and he hasnt really been back to his stomping grounds since. science has been able to answer all sorts of questions and shown physical results that support the answers they give. we can then see and participate in these physical results, ie: go on computer, drive car, so we have a firm belief in it as well. most people with deep spiritual beliefs and convictions generally do so due to some physical experience, or life changing event. some physical result. if god's hand descended from the sky, slapped the joint out of my mouth, burned my weed plants, and echoed out "repent thy sins and accept jesus!" i'd probably start believing, as would a lot of people. so now that there's no real physical results or manifestations of a godly sort: ie, miracles, signs, second comings, etc. people have subscribed more to science.

who knows, maybe we're the manifestation/proof we're looking for. religion puts a lot of emphasis on the person, personal interaction, love, peace, etc. we're center of the universe, god's creation, made in his image, etc. science took us out of the center of the universe, made us the descendants of some sort of common, prime monkey, and broken down our personality to chemical balances, neural activity, psychological conditioning, etc. they're almost working in different directions. perhaps by placing all our focus externally we push ourselves further away from that proof we need. as more and more things arise to take up our attention physically, ie: TV, games, ads, etc, we lose connection with it more and more, giving it less power to manifest in our lives.

funky_unkle · 08-04-2005, 12:56 AM

Well, God is a definite fact to a lot of people, arguments aside.

Some of them live in fear, some experience the pain of being unable to live up the standards they figure God sets for them, yet others become proud because they think they do. So I guess it boils down to who you perceive God to be (or his requirements).

Personally, I believe God knows and sees everything, but I'm not afraid of him anymore.

Philly (.Y.) · 08-04-2005, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kosh

Cause the moment you consult the scripture for every single action, thought and deed, you turn your back on god and deny concientiousness itself.

thats one of the smartest things ive ever read on this site

Kenny Bus · 08-04-2005, 01:38 AM

my head hurts... good posts...

free will vs faith, whether it be in the cause and effect/pre-determanist argument or god.

i like it when science meets religion.

kinda of topic, but im reading "Xenocide" right now by Orsen Scott Card, the 3rd book in the Enders Game series. it touchs on this and a fiew other interesting debates. has anyone read it?

Waves · 08-04-2005, 07:10 AM

If God did indeed objectively exist, things would change. But he doesnt, so don't worry.

We are the closest things to "God".

Once we realize this, morals will change.

SweetSativa · 08-04-2005, 07:19 AM

I also believe without doubt in the existance of God. however, (as Kosh said) not in the same way that many do. If there were a creator whose specific moral rules must be obeyed by all or they would suffer eternally... and He was the One who sat the rules, as a separate entity from us and ruled with an iron fist, I would join forces against him. Fortunately, this is not my belief.

I think that a natural law of recriprocity was sat up by WE in this creation. (liberty is innate... we allow it to be taken)

The Rev · 08-04-2005, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedons

If God were known to exist, would moral choice end?

If we knew God existed and would punish us for evil acts, then good acts would be much less freely chosen. Is element of unknowability about God necessary as to allow us free will? In order to choose good over evil, we must feel free to do bad, and we would not feel this way if we had definite knowledge that God was present and recording our every action.

How much choice do you have to speed when you are in the lane next to a cop?

-Hedons

I think this point is illuminating about Man's relationship to his dieties. We talk about free will, however, if you don't do what God (or His divinely chosen Earthly representatives) say, you go to a fiery torture chamber for Eternity.

I personally think that any god that is entangled in morality is a human construct to exert power over other humans, and has little to do with any real higher being. Think about it. Would you chase bacteria around a petrie dish shaking your finger at them over their choices? You'd have better things to do, and so would God.

The Rev

Canuck Wisdom · 08-04-2005, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedons

If God were known to exist, would moral choice end?

If we knew God existed and would punish us for evil acts, then good acts would be much less freely chosen. Is element of unknowability about God necessary as to allow us free will? In order to choose good over evil, we must feel free to do bad, and we would not feel this way if we had definite knowledge that God was present and recording our every action.

How much choice do you have to speed when you are in the lane next to a cop?

-Hedons

I'm gonna have to say... the cop would ticket you. God would let you speed, make sure you know your speeding and then watch you crash.

Whether we know God exists or not, if he records our every action or not, whats it matter? Lets say we proved it, people would still sin.

We all know what sin is, God lets us know, but we still make the choice to do it, knowing its sinnful.

Waves · 08-04-2005, 07:31 AM

If you believe in God, but "not in the same way most people do", you have to realize that the second you say that you are labeled. Why not call god something else, like Ted, or Jim?

No offense

Quote:

I think this point is illuminating about Man's relationship to his dieties. We talk about free will, however, if you don't do what God (or His divinely chosen Earthly representatives) say, you go to a fiery torture chamber for Eternity.

I personally think that any god that is entangled in morality is a human construct to exert power over other humans, and has little to do with any real higher being. Think about it. Would you chase bacteria around a petrie dish shaking your finger at them over their choices? You'd have better things to do, and so would God.

The Rev

definitly. add that to the fact that once you acknowledge non-physical reality exists, you are basically acknowledging that morals are a physical, and therefore, illusionary principle. some people just dont get it =\

Ego Tripping · 08-04-2005, 07:32 AM

Believing in a God that sits outside of yourself passes the buck of responsibility onto someone other than yourself (see: Religion).

To believe that God is actually right here, right now...that makes us take resposibility for our actions (do unto others). As Waves said, once we accept that we are the Creators, not some ominous force that is somehow everything 'outside' of our own Consciousness, then the moral standards will change.

JahBohl · 08-04-2005, 08:14 AM

Some great posts here...kudos to you stoners. It really comes down to how you define "god". It's hard to disagree with Kosh's definition.....every thing, as opposed to the traditional super sky-daddy who is overly concerned with people's genitals.

Moral choices? Are you really making a moral choice when you have the gun of "eternal damnation" pointed at your head? I'd like to think that my "moral choices" are made because I feel they are the right thing to do, not because I fear that "god" is looking over my shoulder. Many people, possibly most, claim to "know" god exists. This "knowledge", in my opinion, all too often used to rationalize shitty behaviors (like flying planes into builings), and to control people's behaviors (don't eat pork or shrimp). Rational thinking is then left by the wayside.

Ego Tripping · 08-04-2005, 08:21 AM

Anybody ever notice the Ten Commandments are put in the form of "Do NOT" rather than "Do"?

"Thou shall NOT kill" rather than "Thou shall LET Live"

Fear fear fear control control control. Thats all Religion ever was and ever will be. True Spirituality is subjective and can have no organized belief system since it comes subjectively from within the individual.

Waves · 08-04-2005, 08:44 AM

Morals are a veil. When someone is shot, its as much the victims decision as it is the shooters. YOU create your life & reality, NO ONE else. Any thinking otherwise is simply excusatory. Right now we see "someone with malicious intent shoots ____". In reality, at least in the wider reality, it was as much the victims subconscious decision to GET shot as much as it was the assassins decision to SHOOT him.

SweetSativa · 08-04-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

If you believe in God, but "not in the same way most people do", you have to realize that the second you say that you are labeled. Why not call god something else, like Ted, or Jim?

No offense

Or 'it or we'... labled as what?

Quote:

definitly. add that to the fact that once you acknowledge non-physical reality exists, you are basically acknowledging that morals are a physical, and therefore, illusionary principle. some people just dont get it =\

Waves · 08-04-2005, 10:10 AM

labeled as a christian, or worse yet a catholic.

Ego Tripping · 08-04-2005, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

Morals are a veil. When someone is shot, its as much the victims decision as it is the shooters. YOU create your life & reality, NO ONE else. Any thinking otherwise is simply excusatory. Right now we see "someone with malicious intent shoots ____". In reality, at least in the wider reality, it was as much the victims subconscious decision to GET shot as much as it was the assassins decision to SHOOT him.

I disagree. True free will has the ability to impede on others' free will even without consent.

Waves · 08-04-2005, 10:29 AM

On a physical level it does, but on a more subjective level consent WAS given, wether the victim knows it or not. but i can see where you are coming from, with our current perspective. but when it comes down to it, YOU choose to play victim, no one else invades your reality, no matter what it looks like in waking life.

its just another spin-off of the whole "victom/purpotrator" construct. like i said it pervades every area of our current world. this construct will be gone within the next 50 years as people realize that life is a self-fulfilling journey. the point is to further your OWN experiences, not get stuck in the old victim/purp attitude. this is why i am not afraid of 1)being drafted, 2) the apocolypse 3) yellowstone blowing up 4) dieing 5) being shot, etc. etc...

this is also why i feel so sorry for pitfall.

this is also why, no matter how much money we send to africa, nothing is getting better. you have to change the BELIEFS before you change the physical reality of it.

within the wider reality, living a physical life for 30 years and getting shot is literally no time at all. us seemingly-mortal people on earth have dragged out this whole thing to the point of insanity.

SweetSativa · 08-04-2005, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

labeled as a christian, or worse yet a catholic.

I think I'm thick-headed today

... why???? They don't have a monopoly on God. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding... when I say that I believe differently than 'most' others it is because 'most' others around me ARE Christians (and Catholic) ... well, blah, blah... won't go any further and am staying away from dogma, not the underlying messages.

Blah~

08-03-2005, 08:02 PM	#1 (permalink)
Hedons Ribbed for her pleasure! Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Chicago Burbs. Delta(x) times Delta(p) is greater than or equal to h-bar over two. Posts: 4,645 Thanks: 23 Thanked 189 Times in 101 Posts	If God were known to exist... If God were known to exist, would moral choice end? If we knew God existed and would punish us for evil acts, then good acts would be much less freely chosen. Is element of unknowability about God necessary as to allow us free will? In order to choose good over evil, we must feel free to do bad, and we would not feel this way if we had definite knowledge that God was present and recording our every action. How much choice do you have to speed when you are in the lane next to a cop? -Hedons __________________ New and improved! Now with flushable applicator.

08-03-2005, 08:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
snapshot no custom. customize Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The unOriginal Rorschach. Posts: 19,302 Thanks: 15 Thanked 22 Times in 21 Posts	Can you describe the miracle that would occur that caused everyone to believe in science first? Then I could fathom how everyone would know and accept something like that. edit: Its it more likely we would discover the existence of God than discover how to get everyone to believe it. __________________ We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. -Richard Dawkins

08-03-2005, 09:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
ziplock Dreamer of the dreams Join Date: May 2004 Location: British Columbia Posts: 2,110 Thanks: 15 Thanked 91 Times in 71 Posts	most likely, unless it followed some revelations like discovery. that seems to be the real key. god seemed to be kickin around for a while, stirring shit up, smiting homosexuals, freeing slaves, splitting seas, then he ran off and he hasnt really been back to his stomping grounds since. science has been able to answer all sorts of questions and shown physical results that support the answers they give. we can then see and participate in these physical results, ie: go on computer, drive car, so we have a firm belief in it as well. most people with deep spiritual beliefs and convictions generally do so due to some physical experience, or life changing event. some physical result. if god's hand descended from the sky, slapped the joint out of my mouth, burned my weed plants, and echoed out "repent thy sins and accept jesus!" i'd probably start believing, as would a lot of people. so now that there's no real physical results or manifestations of a godly sort: ie, miracles, signs, second comings, etc. people have subscribed more to science. who knows, maybe we're the manifestation/proof we're looking for. religion puts a lot of emphasis on the person, personal interaction, love, peace, etc. we're center of the universe, god's creation, made in his image, etc. science took us out of the center of the universe, made us the descendants of some sort of common, prime monkey, and broken down our personality to chemical balances, neural activity, psychological conditioning, etc. they're almost working in different directions. perhaps by placing all our focus externally we push ourselves further away from that proof we need. as more and more things arise to take up our attention physically, ie: TV, games, ads, etc, we lose connection with it more and more, giving it less power to manifest in our lives. __________________ Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

08-04-2005, 12:56 AM	#4 (permalink)
funky_unkle free Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: ) Posts: 1,737 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well, God is a definite fact to a lot of people, arguments aside. Some of them live in fear, some experience the pain of being unable to live up the standards they figure God sets for them, yet others become proud because they think they do. So I guess it boils down to who you perceive God to be (or his requirements). Personally, I believe God knows and sees everything, but I'm not afraid of him anymore. __________________ A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you." The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

08-04-2005, 01:38 AM	#6 (permalink)
Kenny Bus Selfdestruct-o-Man Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,004 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts	my head hurts... good posts... free will vs faith, whether it be in the cause and effect/pre-determanist argument or god. i like it when science meets religion. kinda of topic, but im reading "Xenocide" right now by Orsen Scott Card, the 3rd book in the Enders Game series. it touchs on this and a fiew other interesting debates. has anyone read it? __________________ Minds are like parachutes, they're useless until open.

08-04-2005, 07:10 AM	#7 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	If God did indeed objectively exist, things would change. But he doesnt, so don't worry. We are the closest things to "God". Once we realize this, morals will change. __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

08-04-2005, 07:19 AM	#8 (permalink)
SweetSativa Lucid Daydreamer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,930 Thanks: 26 Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts	I also believe without doubt in the existance of God. however, (as Kosh said) not in the same way that many do. If there were a creator whose specific moral rules must be obeyed by all or they would suffer eternally... and He was the One who sat the rules, as a separate entity from us and ruled with an iron fist, I would join forces against him. Fortunately, this is not my belief. I think that a natural law of recriprocity was sat up by WE in this creation. (liberty is innate... we allow it to be taken) __________________ "Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

08-04-2005, 07:32 AM	#12 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,468 Thanks: 229 Thanked 665 Times in 443 Posts	Believing in a God that sits outside of yourself passes the buck of responsibility onto someone other than yourself (see: Religion). To believe that God is actually right here, right now...that makes us take resposibility for our actions (do unto others). As Waves said, once we accept that we are the Creators, not some ominous force that is somehow everything 'outside' of our own Consciousness, then the moral standards will change. __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

08-04-2005, 08:14 AM	#13 (permalink)
JahBohl Duppy Conqueror Join Date: May 2005 Location: "on the grass" Posts: 823 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Some great posts here...kudos to you stoners. It really comes down to how you define "god". It's hard to disagree with Kosh's definition.....every thing, as opposed to the traditional super sky-daddy who is overly concerned with people's genitals. Moral choices? Are you really making a moral choice when you have the gun of "eternal damnation" pointed at your head? I'd like to think that my "moral choices" are made because I feel they are the right thing to do, not because I fear that "god" is looking over my shoulder. Many people, possibly most, claim to "know" god exists. This "knowledge", in my opinion, all too often used to rationalize shitty behaviors (like flying planes into builings), and to control people's behaviors (don't eat pork or shrimp). Rational thinking is then left by the wayside. __________________ "If you know what life is worth, then you would look for yours right here on Earth" ~Peter Tosh I'm in favor of it as long as it's multiple choice. ~Kurt Rambis, on drug testing

08-04-2005, 08:21 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,468 Thanks: 229 Thanked 665 Times in 443 Posts	Anybody ever notice the Ten Commandments are put in the form of "Do NOT" rather than "Do"? "Thou shall NOT kill" rather than "Thou shall LET Live" Fear fear fear control control control. Thats all Religion ever was and ever will be. True Spirituality is subjective and can have no organized belief system since it comes subjectively from within the individual. __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

08-04-2005, 08:44 AM	#15 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	Morals are a veil. When someone is shot, its as much the victims decision as it is the shooters. YOU create your life & reality, NO ONE else. Any thinking otherwise is simply excusatory. Right now we see "someone with malicious intent shoots ____". In reality, at least in the wider reality, it was as much the victims subconscious decision to GET shot as much as it was the assassins decision to SHOOT him. __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

08-04-2005, 10:10 AM	#17 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	labeled as a christian, or worse yet a catholic. __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

08-04-2005, 10:29 AM	#19 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	On a physical level it does, but on a more subjective level consent WAS given, wether the victim knows it or not. but i can see where you are coming from, with our current perspective. but when it comes down to it, YOU choose to play victim, no one else invades your reality, no matter what it looks like in waking life. its just another spin-off of the whole "victom/purpotrator" construct. like i said it pervades every area of our current world. this construct will be gone within the next 50 years as people realize that life is a self-fulfilling journey. the point is to further your OWN experiences, not get stuck in the old victim/purp attitude. this is why i am not afraid of 1)being drafted, 2) the apocolypse 3) yellowstone blowing up 4) dieing 5) being shot, etc. etc... this is also why i feel so sorry for pitfall. this is also why, no matter how much money we send to africa, nothing is getting better. you have to change the BELIEFS before you change the physical reality of it. within the wider reality, living a physical life for 30 years and getting shot is literally no time at all. us seemingly-mortal people on earth have dragged out this whole thing to the point of insanity. __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

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