j-wonder

http://www.livescience.com/othernews...D_science.html


good article to read while stoned.

Hedons

IF life on this planet were in truth a "created" technology planted on the primordial earth by aliens (not "God"), how would mainstream science detect the "designed" nature/reality of it?

What do you think is the threshold of detecting and determining whether something is designed?

-Hedons

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Woods

Intelligent Design has nothing to do with science whatsoever. It is not just non-scientific, but the antithesis of science.

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Hedons

I agree. Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory.

But how do you think proper scientific theory addresses the questions I raised?

Or do you think proper scientific theory should refuse to look in that direction?


-Hedons

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The Rev

I don't see how Intelligent Design is antithetical to science. I, as a person, could design an ant farm, and ants could live in it, wondering whether their "Universe" was a product of a higher being, or scientifically explainable phenomena, and the laws of physics, chemisty, etc. would apply just the same. I don't see how this changes just because you scale up.

IOW, the being that intelligently designed our universe could be held to the laws of nature the same as we are.



The Rev

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Sugar420

but science is all about figuring out what those laws are, how they work, how/why they came to be. claiming that someone just made everything doesnt address any real questions about the origins and inner workings of our own antfarm/universe.
like answering the question "where do pancakes come from?" by saying simply "veda makes them" doesnt tell you anything about pancakes. thats why intelligent design is su00pid

The Rev

I agree that to say, "Well God made it." and leave it at that would be lame. My point was, the universe as we know it could have been created by design, within a common framework of the laws of nature; God is as explainable scientifically as we are.



The Rev

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Koery

Like god established all the natural laws and then retreated from daily administration of the universe?
Humans have not evolved under a divine guidance?

The example of an ant farm is amazing. It's also appliable to modern and past circumstances....

Native Americans, for example. What happened to them? They died right, killed off? Well why.

It's almost as if GOd(the antfarm creator) placed certain ants(or humans) with tools... or meaning food, animals.

Why didn't Native Americans get cows? Too make their precious cheese. Such as, didn't native americans have everything they needed to survive? Corn.. tomatoes, buffalo? They had obviously plenty of raw materials... wood, iron, stone.. Then why didn't the Native Americans build out of a large land a great state?

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snapshot

You'd have to imagine, to answer that question, one would need expertise in many different scientific disciplines in order to find certain patterns that haven't been uncovered.

I think the process would require at least knowledge of the Theory of Everything before we could find out where everything would've come from. I don't mean just knowledge of it, I mean, like, figured it out... equation solved.

I don't think we can know anything about our origins until EM, gravity, and the nuclear forces have been adequately solved... enough to pass our theory standards, at least. String theory is trying to be born before it's ever conceived, but then again, who knows, I think it's quite a possibility we may have already figured it out.

So, what the hell do strings have to do with anything intelligent?

candyshop454

The Rev and Koery are talking about deism. A belief that a world with laws of nature was created by God and then abandoned. And the world is now run by the laws.

Intelligent Design says that we were created by a "higher power" and then not abandoned. The higher power has the ability to "intelligently" guide things as he wants, i.e, everything is at his discretion. Supporters of Intelligent Design say that evolution can indeed occur, but only if the higher power wants it to. In other words Darwin's theory of natural selection having guided the origin of species is false, because only the higher power can guide.

My point is that you can't believe in the laws of science and an active God (doing as he pleases).

Geeno

Lost me here man.

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Mescalito

^I disagree.. that is to say i do not entirely agree.

What if someone held the concept of GOD as inclusive of these laws..?

M

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Koery

What if God Allowed the Natural Selection to occur... now not only did it occur, but by the approval of a higher power.

I apologize other dude, was high when wrote that. Just try re-read i guess.

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SageTree

I think your posing the question why didn't they build a larger infostructure, beyond survival, and not taking more than they needed.

I guess that is a question....What do you need and why did some cultures become greedy? Need and Greed are open to opinion, Its how you view it as evolved or devolved.

On another note I don't think that intellegent design should be thaught in science....Darwinian Theory isn't flawless, but its atleast got something you can be almost sure you see. IT can/should be talked about in philosophy.

I see god as the natural laws and think that they are ment to be good for All, and not living in concordance with those laws brings suffering to All. We are each part of All, and All is in each of us. Thats what I beleive I can be sure of. I do have faith that somewhere out there, there is a begining, but I'll never know and its not imortant because I Know that true, selfless intent to give love and compassion to anything anywhere has never hurt anyone.

One love,
Sage

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candyshop454

Actually I shouldn't say its the laws an active God would be breaking, but rather the natural processes of the world. So scientists like Isaac Newton who are religious are deists, because any action by God would be in violation of some natural process of why or how something occurs, e.g, evolution occurs because natural selection occurs which occurs because ??? occurs. Any interference by God would break the process, and we would no longer be able to explain how stuff happens, and there wouldn't be much point in trying to do so.

ziplock

whats up guys

touching on the native american development dealy. its an interesting topic, no doubt, and i havent looked into it for a while (did it on a tangent for some homework assignment i never completed...) but if i remember correctly there's some good theories floating around out there.

one theory that i found interesting i believe was to do with where the civilizations are located on their respective continents. for instance, think of the eastern continent, asia, europe, etc. these civilizations fall along a horizontal axis, whereas on the western continent, civilizations fall along a vertical axis. the significance of this is to do with transportation.

when thinking of climate, as you move horizontally either east or west, the climate in which your travelling remains pretty much the same. however, if you're to travel south or north, climate changes relatively radically. given the time period, these factors could seriously influence the early development of the peoples of these 2 land masses.

with an ease of transportation, not having to compete with a changing climate, trade would be easier, and with trade of material goods comes the trade of intellectual goods, of ideas. trade of course would also be encouraged in this type of environment, as it'd be a profitable venture. now when you start having to consider changing weather conditions, carrying extra gear to combat these changes, the profit margin gets lower and lower, danger and risk increases. it's just much more difficult to reach other cultures, other people. establishing trade and weathering the elements wouldnt be as inviting, leading possibly to a life more based on the neccessities of survival for those close to them.

this of course also carries into warfare. if an army's mobility is seriously limited, then war will most likely be confined to border conflicts and wars over territory. whereas if you can mobilize your army and easily come in contact with your neighbors, you can quickly become a conquering force expanding your influence over a larger landmass leaving your imprint on all the lands you conquer. taking their technologies, their developments, and making them widespread. now each people has a peppering of another so to speak.

i forget where i came accross this... it's possible its in the book Guns, Germs, and Steel, which i was recommended, but i can't be sure because i've never read it. if your interested in the topic, it may be something to look into...

as for intelligent design, imo teaching that in science is like teaching origami in physics. apples and oranges.

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The Rev

I'm not talking about deism. I'm saying that it is possible that God created the Human Universe within a framework of natural laws, just the same as we might create an ant farm. I don't see any reason to think that a being, no matter how evolved, or influential, would be outside the laws of nature.

And if this being created our laws of nature (and there is reason to believe that the Newtonian framework of our universe IS only a limiting case), it is entirely possible that there is a wider context of natural law from which these laws were created. Everything exists within a more general context, and certainly God exists within a context as well, if He's compatible with the rest of reality. If He isn't, then He is fantasy.



The Rev

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