Sugar420

when paul says, "Let every person submit to the governing authorities..."
"ejxousivai uJperecouvsai"—gover ning authorities -
i have always been taught that this means civil authorities, the government.

but did paul really mean church authorities? this was after all, a letter to church people about church matters.

some people think its an interpolation (meaning that paul didnt really write that but it was added in later)

some say that paul’s directions are for jewish christians to refrain from nationalistic agitations, it is not a universal manifesto on church-state relations

a mennonite response to romans 13:1-7 might be to claim that obedience to God, concern for the unity of the church, and love for other people -which were the concerns that led paul to direct the christians in rome to submit to imperial rulers in the first place—take precedence over being subject to governing authorities.

thoughts anybody?

ziplock

did jesus submit to the governing authorities?

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Canuck Wisdom

Yes.

I'm thinking it refers to things which are not relevant to following God's will. Say the government asks you to pay taxes. You pay them. Its not doing God's work by paying them, but it would be a problem if you didn't pay up.

__________________
-Knowitall A&P type-

supermarket :)

yep like the others said.

ziplock

governing authorities is a broad label. what governs your life? surely not only the government. religion, especially at that time, was a great governing authority. thus the logic about assuming it has to do with church. now, did jesus submit to the will of the church of that time? did he surrender and concede to them that he was not the messiah? that he was not the son of god? while they tortured him, did he submit? no. he didn't submit to the governing authorities of earth, forgive them father for they know not what they do. he wasn't a governed man. he was a free man in every meaning of the word.

is your life governed by the government, or yourself? by what you believe to be truthful?

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Canuck Wisdom

(huh?^ Super) anyways so its kinda like doing God's work anyways though because it makes the government people happy.

I take it to mean submit to powers of authority (state, church whatever) so long as it doesn't involve sin. Your free still, and you govern yourself. but you choose to submit to these human powers to avoid creating negatives around you.

Paying taxes doesn't make me sin, but it does avoid the wrath of the authorities, so I should do it for my own well being.

This is how I've always taken it anyways.

__________________
-Knowitall A&P type-

ziplock

if at times jesus, and his disciples, didn't submit to what we'd think of as governing authorities (religion, government, etc) what could paul mean by that? why no clearification on the exceptions? why's it not "Let every person submit to the governing authorities, unless they contradict the law of God"? if God is the supreme authority, and only he fit to judge, how could earthly, human creations, be seen as the governing authority? especially for a man, apparently, so close to God? would they not beyond those things? wouldnt their governing authorities apply to all of existence?

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Corona

^
this is because God gave them the power to govern.

ziplock

^ so hilter got his power from God? that scheming bastard...

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Corona

hahahah, good point. I believe that power is appointed to people by God, but some people choose to do wrong with it.

ziplock

what about people who gained their power by doing wrong?

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Sugar420

but in the OT God says at
Hosea 8:4, "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not."


Jesus and the apostles didnt submit to civil authorities, paul himself had the govenor of damascus with a garrison of soldiers trying to catch him. he wrote, "And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands," 2 corinthians 11:32.

but the question here,
Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

"the powers that be" has become an expression now, but couldnt it be that paul was referring to church leaders in the body of Christ?
does it seem inconsistant with everything else? especially since in the same letter, he writes, "do not be conformed to this world" romans 12:2
obeying ceasar is conforming to the world.

if paul is telling us to obey the state, why did ceasar have him beheaded?
becuz maybe paul was not saying that at all?

Jesus specific instructions to his followers: "Do not resist one who is evil" (Mat 5:39
but it is worthwhile to note that the greek word anthistemi, translated as "resist," is used most often as a military term. it refers to violent struggle or resistance in military encounters, so the translation "do not resist an evildoer" therefore is misleading. "Do not violently resist an evildoer" is what was written down

“My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight.” (John 18:36)

thats what Jesus says.

forgive your oppressors (Mt. 6:14) Love and pray and bless them.

don’t fight over land or water rights (Mt.6:25) “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink. don’t worry about what you will eat or drink”

don’t condemn your oppressors , but look at your own faults that led you to your state of oppression. (Mt.7:1) “regard the mote that is in your own eye”

don’t try to force others to follow the golden rule (Mt.7:12). you have been forgiven so much, will you now demand that your brother pays every penny for his sins?

do not fight for housing rights. true followers have no homes. or place to lay their heads. (Mt.8:20)

don’t fight over burial grounds “Let the dead bury the dead.” (Mt.8:22)

Jesus didn’t try to reform tax laws he called Mathew to leave that life (Mt.9:9)

“But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues...when they persecute you flee “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another.” (Mt.10:17-23) if they persecute you in chiapas, flee to sinaloa.

the Devil’s Children and Jah’s children are mixed like wheat and tares and no one can distinguish between them and we are not to try to root up the tares. (Mt.13:29)

we are not to attack blind leaders but ignore them “ “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” (Mt.15:14)

we have not been sent to reform the world for what if we gain the world and lose our souls. (Mt.16:24)

so thats why i think paul is not saying that we should submit ourselves to the state.

Mescalito

A scene out of Life of Brian comes to mind! lol



M

__________________
Jungle Monkey

Peace seeker

If gvmnts worked for the good of the people or the state, then i would support them and obey their laws.

But considering how corrupted the former (2000 yrs ago) and current gvmnts are, i really doubt that good people should obey their lies.

Governments dont work to make the world a better place.
They work for "their" Babylon.

Corona

The bible speaks of wicked men who figure out how to gain things without God's consent.

ziplock

wouldnt this contradict god being all powerful and dictating who gets power? wouldn't this also contradict everything being according to God's plan?

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

ziplock

^ then those with free will would dictate who got power. we would. which i agree with.

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Corona

exactly, free will.

SinIster GriN

For most of his ministry, Paul benefited from the legal protection of the Roman empire. The first generation of Christians received the same freedom of worship and legal protection as the Jews. There were emperors (Nero)during that time that turned on the Christians, torturing/murdering...History shows that most of them followed Paul's difficult advice in 13:1, refusing to revolt against the government no matter how hostile it became......

__________________
Trying to be colorful in a scheme of black and white.

Waves

you cant believe both in free will and in gods plan. how the hell does that work?

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow