Anyone have proof that a religion is bullshit? - Page 5

ziplock · 12-28-2005, 03:46 PM

sandman, nice dictionary use i'm impressed.

"psy·che·del·ic (sk-dlk)
adj.

Of, characterized by, or generating hallucinations, distortions of perception, altered states of awareness, and occasionally states resembling psychosis"

as long as you're experiencing emotion (especially love probably) you're in a psychedelic state. kool huh? and yeah DMT sounds sweet i've wanted to try it forever now.

Quote:

Jesus has nothing to do with God at all, he only was a walking miracle, but oh ya, he lived too long ago, the stories are fake, 2000 years is much too long to keep track of something, I Forgot............

i'd say jesus has as much to do with god as you, me, and everyone else does. whats this about walking miracle? and whats w/ the rest of this? plato lived b4 jesus, we have stories about him, kept his stuff straight. ur whole time thing doesnt make sense. however, the stories being fake now thats another thing...

ziplock · 12-28-2005, 04:11 PM

^ this assumes that the atheist believes there wasn't a beginning of the universe. this is a false assumption, undermining the premise of the article. therefore all it is doing is stating known evidence of a singularity, the big bang, etc. the beginning of the cosmos. because this is the limit of our knowledge on the topic at this moment, the author then attempts to jump beyond our current knowledge and again assume that it was god that created it. this is singling out one possibility among countless, especially when considering quantum mechanics, and is rather naive.

i'll read some of the first one and get back.

ziplock · 12-28-2005, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Is there any way that we can get beyond pure speculation about how well the story was transmitted between 30 A.D. and the writing of the Gospels? Yes, there is. Again, it is almost certain that Mark was the first Gospel and that Matthew and Luke used Mark to produce their Gospels. If we compare parallel passages between the three synoptic Gospels, we can see whether or not the message was preserved accurately.

Quote:

While there are variations in the telling of the story, the differences are not significant. We know that in the telling and retelling of the gospel story, changes were made. Different speakers and writers used different words and ways to tell about Jesus. But we have no evidence that the story of Jesus was changed significantly during the time period from the life of Jesus until the writing of the New Testament documents. If the story of Jesus was going to be transformed from that of a peasant rabbi into that of the miracle working Lord, we would expect to see significant development.

Quote:

But in testing the probability of whether or not something happened, multiple attestation is better. In the story of Jesus we have a multitude of witnesses. We have the four Gospels. We have numerous other historical references in the rest of the New Testament. We even have a small amount of evidence from non-biblical sources, although it is quite minimal. Multiple attestation points to the credibility of the Jesus story.

these passages are of course from the first link you provided. now in this article as stated i see the authors attempts at attesting the story of jesus. by the persons own admittance there's "a small amount of evidence from non-biblical sources, although it is quite minimal." they're then using biblical sources, cross referencing them, to verify the validity of the bible. this would throw up red flags right away for most people.

the author suggests that for the story of Jesus to have been embellished and exaggerated, it would have to do so after time. however, they concede differences amongst the tellings, and how these differences arose over a short time period, regardless of how the gospels share common sources. this also doesn't take into account if those original sources were flawed, or exagerrated, then it would trickle down to each derivitive of them. therefore, this argument ALSO is based on assumption. assumption of the accuracy of the original telling. assuming that this person would not exaggerate or deviate from the absolute truth of the matter. which when analyzed in context seems to be a very dangerous assumption.

this when considered with the time period in question, and the general tone of religious, spiritual scripture of the time, the exaggeration of the jesus story falls in place quite nicely. lining up well with hercules, appollo, zues and the rest and the tradition of deifying important political/religious figures.

ziplock · 12-28-2005, 05:28 PM

why do you not believe in yourself? you have first hand, intimate knowledge of it. indeed you're the ultimate authority on it. why not investigate and believe in that? isn't within us where jesus said god's kingdom is?

how did your life so drastically change? i'm interested. it's always good to help others.

i don't believe religion is bullshit either. i think there's jewels in all religions, and when taken out of their rough, rocky encasings, can amount to a treasure.

iamislegrown · 12-28-2005, 05:29 PM

True, back then they animated or embellished the events to sound more interesting and profound, after all, story telling was a form of entertainment.

Pitfall · 12-28-2005, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandman_130

I tell you because I know.

God is not an it, or a him.

God is a word created by God to describe them.

A man and a woman.

Father...........Son (Jesus)........and the Holy Spirit(the mother)

We are all in the same family, how can you not see that.

Eat a mushroom, walk through a forest, think, and maybe see if you are truly enlightened.

I myself have proof of both Satan and God are well and alive, its not just some little bullshit things that happen, I could explain alot to you but its up to you to figure things out for yourself without proof.

Satan is more prominent in showing his power in this world than God, God shows power to some who can see, Satan will show to anyone. I've seen people who have been possessed by Satan, and believe me their is no way to fake that. Hearing the voice of Satan and seeing the human body do things that would be called impossible to you concrete thinkers.

I could show you Satan right to your face, and you would still not believe, for reason I cannot understand.

Maybe I'm stupid, or maybe I am preaching to heathens? I'm just explaining the other side, it seems everyone on here hates God and couldn't give a rat's ass about it, because its so hard to believe, that we were created by something, this whole universe was.....and yes their is more than one universe, that is one of the gifts of making it into heaven, you have the choice of becoming a God, and creating your own family and life.

jesus christ!

just be agnostics people... fuck.

Mescalito · 12-29-2005, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Noone is on this earth to feel happy

Hmm well i dont know about that. Maybe you are not. But its certainly one of my many reasons for being alive.

Matt

JahBohl · 12-29-2005, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

im just making a generalization based on my life experiences. I dont think happiness is correlated at all to belief in supernatural. im saying that in general the atheists i have met are depressed cynical people. Keep in mind the difference between an atheist(believes there is no god or higher power) and agnostic(realizes there is some sort of higher power but knows he will never understand it until hes dead). Agnostics are great but alot of the time are mislabeled as atheists. I think as long as you can realize that life is worth living you are on the right track.

Im not trying to cause offense im just remarking on my experiences. I know alot of christians, alot of jews, and alot of atheists and i can tell you that in general atheists are the ones saying "ugh, i hate life, why does this shit happen to me..." At least christians believe that whatever suffering they are experiencing is part of some divine plan. At least when they die they wont be standing there wondering why the hell they can still see, taste, touch, smell, and hear better than they ever could while alive.

No offense taken, I just wish that you'd realize that atheism is mearly a lack of belief in god/gods. In fact, I'd bet most atheists would say that the concept of god is a possibility, just improbable and an unecessary conclusion based on what we know. Agnostism and weak atheism are essentially the same thing....maybe you just like the word agnostic better because it doesn't have the stigma that many religious floks put on the word "atheist" (they think it's synonymous with "evil") .

Quote:

Many people who adopt the label of agnostic reject the label of atheist — there is a common perception that agnosticism is a more “reasonable” position while atheism is more “dogmatic,” ultimately indistinguishable from theism except in the details. Is this a valid position to take?

Unfortunately, no — agnostics may sincerely believe it and theists may sincerely reinforce it, but it relies upon more than one misunderstanding about both atheism and agnosticism. These misunderstandings are only exacerbated by continual social pressure and prejudice against atheism and atheists. People who are unafraid of stating that they indeed do not believe in any gods are still despised in many places, whereas “agnostic” is perceived as more respectable.

Atheists are thought to be closed-minded because they deny the existence of gods, whereas agnostics appear to be open-minded because they do not know for sure.

This is a mistake because atheists do not necessarily deny any gods and may indeed be an atheist because they do not know for sure — in other words, they may be an agnostic as well.
Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities. Agnosticism is not about belief in god but about knowledge — it was coined originally to describe the position of a person who could not claim to know for sure if any gods exist or not.

Thus, it is clear that agnosticism is compatible with both theism and atheism. A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; the result is agnostic theism. On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism.

from here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

At least christians believe that whatever suffering they are experiencing is part of some divine plan.

So it's better to attribute your problems to a "divine plan" then to actually try to figure out the actual causes and solutions. Why would you try to allevieate suffering in your life if you think it's "god's plan"? Wouldn't you be smited for fucking with god's master plan? And if you're going to get this great afterlife why should you care if your real/earthly life is a piece of crap? (refer to my sig.). Religion is great for fostering fear and complacency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by v3d4

but i like the idea about "shutting out ideas" in order to "open ones heart" which made more sense to me said in the e prime way.

In order to have "faith" you need to "close your mind to open your heart". In other words: "don't think, just believe".....I find that notion downright frightening. Especially in a nuclear era where people have "faith" in the belief that others who don't think like they do should be desroyed.

Waves · 12-29-2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JahBohl

No offense taken, I just wish that you'd realize that atheism is mearly a lack of belief in god/gods.

And i just wish you'd realize that saying "I lack the belief in God" is the SAME STATEMENT as "I believe god does not exist"

Quote:

In fact, I'd bet most atheists would say that the concept of god is a possibility, just improbable and an unecessary conclusion based on what we know. Agnostism and weak atheism are essentially the same thing....maybe you just like the word agnostic better because it doesn't have the stigma that many religious floks put on the word "atheist" (they think it's synonymous with "evil") .

Yeah i think when it comes to concepts and MULTIPLE people you have to take into consideration the fact that for most people "atheist" = "does not believe in god." And as i think we can both see, whatever "most people" agree on becomes reality.

Quote:

So it's better to attribute your problems to a "divine plan" then to actually try to figure out the actual causes and solutions. Why would you try to allevieate suffering in your life if you think it's "god's plan"? Wouldn't you be smited for fucking with god's master plan? And if you're going to get this great afterlife why should you care if your real/earthly life is a piece of crap? (refer to my sig.). Religion is great for fostering fear and complacency.

Again i agree with you. But for most atheists its the same deal. Instead of "divine plan" its "human nature." The best route to take is to realize that as humans we have the ability to create change, and if that change benefits everyone we should seek that change. but we dont wether it be "human nature" or a "divine plan."

Quote:

In order to have "faith" you need to "close your mind to open your heart". In other words: "don't think, just believe".....I find that notion downright frightening.

Again, i will refer to recent posts in the A&P forum where people are chalking up most every negative incident to "human nature." Instead of talking with other people and perhaps changing their beliefs, it becomes a matter of "well its going to happen either way..."

Its all about promoting ideas that promote change. Get what im sayin?

JahBohl · 12-29-2005, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

And i just wish you'd realize that saying "I lack the belief in God" is the SAME STATEMENT as "I believe god does not exist"?

I guess we'll have to agree that we disagree on this point because those are very different statements there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

whatever "most people" agree on becomes reality

I know that you're not too keen on the idea of an objective reality, but no matter how many people believe something, it doesn't nesessarily make it true. For example, everyone on Yahooka (or everyone in the world) could think I'm a girl. But that won't change the fact that I've got a XY pair of 23rd chromosomes (balls too

) .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waves

Its all about promoting ideas that promote change. Get what im sayin?

Yes. And this is the problem I see with religion.....It's static, mired in it's dogma and unwilling to change. When confronted with conflicting information, religion turns to apologetics rather then re-working the theology and admitting it might be wrong.

Now, this brings us back around (kinda) to the O.P. The reason (one of them) I reject religion is this lack of open mindedness. Open minded meaning that you are open to the possibility that you could be wrong. When's the last time you heard an evangelical christian say "well, Jesus might not have been the son of god"?

As far as "anyone have proof that a religion is bullshit" goes, my reply to the O.P. would be that if you are the one making the fantastic claims then the burden of proof lies with you. Theists don't believe in 99,999 out of 100,000 gods, I just include one more in my bullshit list.

Mescalito · 12-29-2005, 12:52 PM

^Whats your definition of belief?

Matt

JahBohl · 12-29-2005, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SANcHEZ

^Whats your definition of belief?

Matt

Can we save epistemology for another thread?

Mescalito · 12-29-2005, 02:20 PM

Its up to you.. it just seems to me like everything you have been saying is related in some way to epistemology. Are you afraid or lazy to answer the question?

Matt

Waves · 12-29-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JahBohl

I know that you're not too keen on the idea of an objective reality, but no matter how many people believe something, it doesn't nesessarily make it true. For example, everyone on Yahooka (or everyone in the world) could think I'm a girl. But that won't change the fact that I've got a XY pair of 23rd chromosomes (balls too

) .

thats because you choose to bring the concept of "male" into your life as opposed to "female." the female "you" is in another "dimension" or physical universe. In quantam physics this is referred to as the "many worlds" theory. more and more evidence is being found every day that what we see in our lives is a very tiny fraction of "reality." But from a time-perspective its easy to look at all these stupid religions and say "fuck it, i will build my beliefs only on experience" like you seem to have done. Problem is like i said, what we experience is only a tiny fraction of "reality." I guess you just have to be open to both possibilities, and as science gets more and more evidence those "possibilties" will slowly become "facts"...

Also, without chromosomes how would we be able to explore the concepts of male and female? we cant just magically come out with penises or vaginas, theres gotta be SOME belief to explain the differences. Science did its job and gave us that belief.

for the record, im actually very keen on the idea of objective reality. right now you are objectively typing keys on an objective keyboard looking at an objective screen. its just what we deem "objective" and "subjective" is bound to change.

12-29-2005, 04:05 PM

I will say one thing that prooves that the story of Jesus is not true:

The bible says jesus was born by the Virgin Mary. You cant concieve a child if you aint gettin a dick in your twat. So this means it's all bullshit, end of story.

12-29-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SANcHEZ

Hmm well i dont know about that. Maybe you are not. But its certainly one of my many reasons for being alive.

Matt

Ya your right. I meant I would rather live my life changing other peoples lives for the better then just living life to better myself.

Waves · 12-29-2005, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by higherlearner84

I will say one thing that prooves that the story of Jesus is not true:

The bible says jesus was born by the Virgin Mary. You cant concieve a child if you aint gettin a dick in your twat. So this means it's all bullshit, end of story.

If only it were about cold hard facts.

12-29-2005, 04:10 PM

Waiiiit that doesent sound right either. I dunno I guess with this much devastation and death all around the world I feel guilty to just go get a job and live a normal life. I would rather dedicate my life to better the world, and thus making me happy.

Ego Tripping · 12-29-2005, 04:13 PM

Want proof that Religion is bullshit?

It was written by Man.

Case and thread closed.

12-29-2005, 04:19 PM

what are you saying?

12-28-2005, 04:11 PM	#82 (permalink)
ziplock Dreamer of the dreams Join Date: May 2004 Location: British Columbia Posts: 2,110 Thanks: 15 Thanked 91 Times in 71 Posts	^ this assumes that the atheist believes there wasn't a beginning of the universe. this is a false assumption, undermining the premise of the article. therefore all it is doing is stating known evidence of a singularity, the big bang, etc. the beginning of the cosmos. because this is the limit of our knowledge on the topic at this moment, the author then attempts to jump beyond our current knowledge and again assume that it was god that created it. this is singling out one possibility among countless, especially when considering quantum mechanics, and is rather naive. i'll read some of the first one and get back. __________________ Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

12-28-2005, 05:28 PM	#84 (permalink)
ziplock Dreamer of the dreams Join Date: May 2004 Location: British Columbia Posts: 2,110 Thanks: 15 Thanked 91 Times in 71 Posts	why do you not believe in yourself? you have first hand, intimate knowledge of it. indeed you're the ultimate authority on it. why not investigate and believe in that? isn't within us where jesus said god's kingdom is? how did your life so drastically change? i'm interested. it's always good to help others. i don't believe religion is bullshit either. i think there's jewels in all religions, and when taken out of their rough, rocky encasings, can amount to a treasure. __________________ Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

12-28-2005, 05:29 PM	#85 (permalink)
iamislegrown YaHookan Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 995 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	True, back then they animated or embellished the events to sound more interesting and profound, after all, story telling was a form of entertainment. __________________ Marc s. Emery quote: To be free in canada you have to spend a lot of time in jail.

12-29-2005, 12:52 PM	#91 (permalink)
Mescalito Space Cadet Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,146 Thanks: 638 Thanked 679 Times in 347 Posts	^Whats your definition of belief? Matt __________________ Jungle Monkey

12-29-2005, 02:20 PM	#93 (permalink)
Mescalito Space Cadet Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,146 Thanks: 638 Thanked 679 Times in 347 Posts	Its up to you.. it just seems to me like everything you have been saying is related in some way to epistemology. Are you afraid or lazy to answer the question? Matt __________________ Jungle Monkey

12-29-2005, 04:05 PM	#95 (permalink)
higherlearner84 Guest Posts: n/a	I will say one thing that prooves that the story of Jesus is not true: The bible says jesus was born by the Virgin Mary. You cant concieve a child if you aint gettin a dick in your twat. So this means it's all bullshit, end of story.

12-29-2005, 04:10 PM	#98 (permalink)
higherlearner84 Guest Posts: n/a	Waiiiit that doesent sound right either. I dunno I guess with this much devastation and death all around the world I feel guilty to just go get a job and live a normal life. I would rather dedicate my life to better the world, and thus making me happy.

12-29-2005, 04:13 PM	#99 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,461 Thanks: 229 Thanked 657 Times in 438 Posts	Want proof that Religion is bullshit? It was written by Man. Case and thread closed. __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

12-29-2005, 04:19 PM	#100 (permalink)
higherlearner84 Guest Posts: n/a	what are you saying?

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