higherlearner84

so u think the only power we have is to become powerless?

ziplock

veda, would you fight for the right to vote?

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Waves

So jesus said, and correct me if im wrong, "you cannot change the world. Dont even try."

What a message.

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Sugar420

higherlearner what do you mean by power?
we are supposed to reject worldly power

ziplock what do you mean fight? i am committed to nonviolence

waves, what he said was, "my kingdom is not of this earth"

if you reject the concepts of good and evil as being just another mistake of dualistic thinking, then these ideas about political power and corruption are concepts that dont make much sense. however for the nondualistic thinker, there is nothing wrong (no wrong thing) in the gospel

ziplock

fight Audio pronunciation of "fight" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ft)
v. fought, (fôt) fight·ing, fights
v. intr.

1.
1. To attempt to harm or gain power over an adversary by blows or with weapons.
2. Sports. To engage in boxing or wrestling.
2. To engage in a quarrel; argue: They are always fighting about money.
3. To strive vigorously and resolutely: fought against graft; fighting for her rights.

I should attach a dictionary to my sig. It'd be so easy. Even the example is the same!

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Sugar420

no ziplock, i will not fight to vote.
but i will practice nonviolence and noncompliance and noncooperation

funky_unkle

What would those be?

No, he said quite the opposite. You may stand corrected.

__________________
A communist officer told a Christian he was beating, "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered, "The power is all on my side. I can love you while you torture me to death."

Mescalito

I just finished watching Ghandi!
lol.. have you ever seen the Life of Brian!?

I personally think the bible is just like any other book. We can take beliefs from any source. It has to be said though that alot of people take in my opinion some weird beliefs from it.. and also alot of people think of it as the ultimate and possibly only book from which to obtain good beliefs.

Matt

__________________
Jungle Monkey

Waves

well just looking at the big ones, i would say



1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

so 4/10 i would say i have problems with. just needless beliefs created to keep your mind focused on religion.
Could you maybe, ya know, explain?

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Waves

Like i said, to keep your mind focused on god. DONT CHALLENGE YOUR BELIEFS SANDMAN. GOD IS ALL.
Well god would know i was just kidding around because me saying "Fuck god" is all part of his master plan, remember? And even if this omniscent being who knows ALL was "pissed off" i could just go give confession. voila no more sins.
In your head they are. in reality they just wanted to make sure people kept showing up for church.
I have no problem respecting my mother or father but this is a rule designed to help adults keep those mischievous children in line. it has nothing to do with reality, just a way for parents to keep their kids under their thumb. more control.

The other 10 commandments, while also just tools of control, at least preach basic values that i can understand and appreciate.

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

ziplock

Would that be immoral by your standards? Specifically the "prevention of experiential harm to others" part? How do you view people like Martin Luther King Jr that fought for their rights?
What do you think of this quote?

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Sugar420

MLK jr carried the gospel; that is why he was jailed and opressed by the state
in the civil rights movement the correlation between voting and legislation passed in favor of black people is null. what did cause a rise in legislation in favor of black folks was the nonviolent actions spurring up across the land. once those actions ceased, the legislation stopped, while at the same time those same black people continued to vote. So the connection between voting and getting something done to relieve suffering is weak. the most powerful actions were those outside the ballot box.
in some places it is against the law to preform charity. my advice to the person living in such a place: if preforming an act of charity seems necessary, you should simply break that law rather than propose an amendment or new law to vote on.

victory for humanity
is victory in Christ

ziplock

Interesting, could you expound on this? I haven't heard it before unfortunately.I'm sorry I guess I should've been more specific. I wasn't even thinking about that connection when posting. Voting was in regards to (in my mind) womens rights and their movement. At the time I choose this one simply because I don't think womens rights were really addressed in the Bible. I brought up MLK Jr and his movement because I thought he, just like the women, fought for their rights. This is of course using the definition of "To strive vigorously and resolutely: fought against graft; fighting for her rights."

I find this strive vigorously and resolutely very important, because this did this against the social pressure around them. The thing is with these politics and what I'm inferring from your posts is that you'd take a position of noncompliance, etc, but would not actively fight for the reasons why you take that stance of noncompliance. This of course using the same definition.

Now, the thing is I would not give this advice in a time where you would be simply killed outright for your actions. As said "He did not recommend reforming the churches. He said they will hate you and put you out of them, and kill you. (John 15:20)" But now, in a democratic society, where the people rule the people, I would have to say to fight, yes. In the arena of reason, nonviolence, etc, as demonstrated by MLK Jr and Gandhi before him and many others. In this sense, while I agree with many things stated, I still feel they're outdated, and can be modernized greatly. This would of course compromise what many consider the word of God.Yeah I'd have to agree with that.

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Sugar420

Letter from a Birmingham Jail, Martin Luther King, Jr., 1963
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst3...ts/letter.html

i completely agree that vigorous and resolute striving is absolutely necessary in the struggle against evil, however i make a distinction between voting rights and natural human rights.
in the USA women got the right to vote but that did not end or significantly lessen the downpression of women. black people got the right to vote but that did not end the downpression of black people. the voting age was amended to 18 years old in 1971, and since that time the socially conscious youth of america have not brought about any reform.
these were all acts of appeasement: to keep people from rebelling, the states gave them "rights" in order to help quell the unrest. this is how it was in europe when voting was established, and in USA 1960's and early 70's Congress was not so much afraid of "protests" but what those protests had come to signify in a rise of a much more threatening form of dissent than marching around with signs.
voting was meant to keep people from outright rebellion. It was meant to appease the blacks so they would stop their nonviolence campaign, and that is exactly what happened
it is not a matter of who is in office as it is a matter of the office itself being set up to maintain power structures and injustice. neither Jimmy Carter nor Bill Clinton significantly reduced the poverty levels of the US population. in fact Clinton helped to bring about a major reduction in the social welfare system of the US that provided a safety net for the poor. the offices are simply bought and sold by large corporations who back the candidates and expect favors from them once they get elected.
thats babylon system, and thats why i would not fight for the "right to vote"

in fact the only way for the marginalized to get a better day is for them to seize it, because there is a conflict of interest between those in power and the lower classes in this society.

so let us strive vigorously and resolutely to recognize and act upon the God given human rights of all people, with love and humility as we are commanded by Jesus,
rather than by voting and participating in the wicked system of our own downpression

ziplock

I agree with you also, and thanks for clearifying more. After reading what you said I looked into it and started reading that letter but didn't get far. Glad you brought it back up so I got a chance to finish reading it. Amazing writer.

I can see how you could interpret he was arrested for carrying the gospel, and I'd agree given those associations. I was thinking along the lines of the reasoning behind the actions of those who imprisoned him, which I believed to be to keep an event that'd have a large impact on maintaining segregation from happening.I'd of course agree that he was carrying the gospel, as he himself stated. It's simply a matter of associations, and demonstrates how easily it can lead to misunderstanding. I'm glad it came up though and brought to light this letter.

Of course it's wise to make a distinction between civil rights and voting. It'd be ignorant not to. They are both steps to the acquire and ends though, and gives foundation on which to build. I think this part of the letter fits in with this:It's important to have that ability to state your opinion on who you think is most capable of governing your country. It's my belief that those who would hope to maintain this babylon system would see the lucractive and influencial potential of positions in government. It'd be a worthy investment, and of course large corporations do invest, expecting return. We need to have as much awareness and influence on these vital systems of a society in order to best keep it from being exploited. Voting being a part of that.

However, it would seem that many people have come to think that our influence ends at voting. It doesn't, it shouldn't. We have a democractic society, with all these rights, and we should use them. Public assembly, protest, freedom of speech. These are all there to ensure the publics constant presence in public matters. This presence is ill kept at best by the majority and this is because of social issues and conditioning. MJK Jr and his movement forced a presence on an issue, a public, supported presence. As he said he brought to surface the tension that was already alive, and still is.Our participation in these systems is manditory in order to ensure they're not exploited. They're put in place for the betterment of society, but just like anything with potential power and influence it's manipulated. People are a resource that're tapped through psychological, conscious, methods. Media, advertisement, government. The maintainence of current in currency, a stable, flowing economy with a significantly large profit margin.

In an consciously charged environment such as this people need to be sharp and involved, contributing. They need to be open minded and accepting yet critical and cautious. Independant enough to form their own opinion and to balance opposing perspectives with eachother. This allows them to be consciously aware enough to remain uninfluenced and manipulated by psychological trappings of those who would wish to maintain power structures. These power structures, as historically shown, is dependant on the knowledge and awareness of the populace. The masses has had the means to take down governments. Technology however tips the scales radically when you think about it. This is why vigilence and active participation is of utmost importance, imo.

I'd now get back into Jesus and Christianity, and how though the morals of the story are great but the vessel it travels in, the story, obscures the viewing of such great morals. In an age where many people don't have the time or even the care to closely examine concepts in their minds, this can lead to a very mislead understanding of them. This leads to the development of characteristics that lead to the continuation and maintainence of the power structures in place. But, I have to get going. Maybe some other time.

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Sugar420

well, it seems you have a belief in voting that i dont share

mislead understanding? you mean misunderstanding!

why did Jesus speak in parables?
the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

prophecy fulfilled
Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.

blessed
But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it."

higherlearner84

Obviosuly it wouldent end the downpression, it was a step. the downpression of woman and black people will not end untill we stop refering to "them" as woman and black people fool.

but i totally agree with your last statement about love and humanity

Sugar420

you mean as long as people let themselves be ruled by their egos and make distinctions among themselves?

i think as long as the nation-state monopolizes violence in the name of certain class interests, is incapable of resolving the tensions that lead to downpression. In fact, it is actually responsible for those conditions - poverty, racism, ignorance
Jesus shows us that it is possible for people to come together to pursue a collective self-interest instead of dividing people along class lines and making them kill each other for scarce resources.
but as long as people have the free choice to pursue evil and wickedness, then they will. christians are called to practice nonviolence, noncooperation and noncompliance in the face of that evil. not to return evil for evil, but to overcome evil by good.

ziplock

Please, by all means continue your explaination of this. I'm forever thirsty for the opportunity to replace my beliefs with another's. If you can quench this thirst in regards to voting, and exchange my mirage for an oasis, I'd be greatly appreciative.No, unfortunately, I meant a mislead understanding. Though of course a misunderstanding is the result of this. A person will achieve an understanding by coming into contact and interacting with conscious concepts through, generally, associative processes. For instance, I talked to a mother last night who was saying her son has trouble with mathematics, yet if you can manage to place those same mathematical questions in terms of soccer, he was a wiz.

Now, when someone becomes exposed to a concept, they'll consult their databank of experience through association. This concept is like this, etc. This is why analogy and metaphor can be such a great teaching tool, as they allow one to work within the associative processes of the student to best optimise their learning potential. The thing is, many people will not take neither the time nor the effort required to adaquetly go through this process and form their own, independant, opinion and perspective. Instead, they opt for that path of least resistence, which is offered to them by others who have taken the time to labour extensively over, say scripture, or whatever concept, and from their experience and association gained an understanding. The proverbial sheep and shepherd.

If the person through their labors harbors a misunderstanding, which is quite common and plausible, they then pass on quite effectively that misunderstanding to the next person. This person, not using the conscious mechanisms to safeguard against such trappings, then gains what they believe to be an understanding. Though it may be a misunderstanding, due to their apathetic approach, they believe they are correct. In this sense, it's become a mislead understanding. They didn't acquire this understanding but were lead to it, which then becomes a deviation from the true understanding of the matter. This understanding acts like another layer of relays and circuitry, and is used as an associative foundation to further percieve and acquire experience and understanding.

Generally, most people do not balance bias, or seek to gain an encompassing perspective. They don't, for instance, balance western philosophies with eastern. Liberalism with conservatism. We more readily subscribe to one or another, and seem to be eager in putting ourselves at odds with the rest. Labels and terms then become personal degrading insults. These groups interests and agendas are then put forth by a minority at the top of the power structure and propegates down from their into the ranks.

Typically we submit ourselves and our behaviors to the regulation of these esoteric few. These few then use their understanding to be benefit themselves. This sort of hoarding of experience and understanding has lead to the class divisions and conflicts of the past. For instance, think of when education was only a priviledge of the weathly. This is a self sustaining cycle, one where the rich get richer, money stays in the family, etc. As stated in the letter by MLK, it's an unfortunate historical fact that priviledged groups seldom give up their priviledges voluntarily.

You, for instance, are not a common Christian. You've gone the extra mile and taken the time and dedication to pursue a deeper understanding of the scripture. You've also shown a more encompassing understanding by your ability to associate and relate with other religions and their teachings. The common Christian on the other hand does not put forth such an effort and dedicate so much time. Instead they are more caught up in the material portions of physical life, family life, the demands of the modern world. In doing so, they rely on the interpretation of a certain few, such as priest, in order to attain their understanding. It's like being given the introductory and conclusory sentence of an essay but nothing of the body paragraphs inbetween. Though you may have a basic fundamental understanding, the lack of any body makes for a lack of understanding. They do not know really how or why they've subscribed to that belief and can not readily rationalize it, communicating it to others. They can give you little bits, some of them very thought provoking, but not really anything else. Instead, they generally have to turn to some dismissive mechanism which ends any productive discussion. Pretty much stopping the intrusion of logic and reason.

Of course there are certain cases, such as yourself, MLK Jr, and numerous other brilliant Christian people, that break the mold. The thing is, with these cases, they often are able to and do relate and associate with other religions. In doing so, they demonstrate their encompassing understanding that's not dependant on a singular religion, but takes portions of all to make a more complete understanding. Though one religion may, such as Christianity in your case imo, exemplify their understanding, it is by no means the be all end all of religious contempation. It might be safe to assume that even without Christianity's existence they'd find similar understanding through other religions, as demonstrated by their ability to relate to them.

It's this ability to address various understanding and contexts that creates an adaptable and versitile mentality. This mentality can then come in contact with numerous peopel who share a differing opinion, such as my own, and be fully confident in the exchange of understanding, such as yourself. In this sense that aids, progressively, the overall net understanding of the social body of Earth. They contribute to the cultural wealth of humanity. They also create an individual integrity and opinion that isn't dependant on anything other then themselves. They carry their gospel with them in their hearts, they do not need a book, or parables, or language to conceptualize it. They've attained a familiarity with the experience.

This needs to be propegated and enforced. Society, culture, government, they're all dependant on the exchange of ideas THROUGHOUT society. Beyond the class divisions and distinctions we enjoy putting into place. We have to readily greet resistence as an opportunity to excersise. Grind away the channels of communication until they're rugged, rough texture has been turned to a smooth, flowing surface. Let thoughts fly through communication, do not use communication in order to suppress percieved deviant thought patterns.

Of course, Jesus was far from the first person to use parables in their teachings. Parables are great teaching tools that invite deeper inquiry and examination into what's being said. Each person who read Jesus's teachings would then have to contemplate deeply the meaning, bringing to light subconscious operations and behaviors that'd become so deeply rooted they were habitual and destructive. Through their abstractions they gain the definitiveness of the soul and allow the person to recognize this soul and it's potential.

However, as stated before, this is a process that's rarely followed through with. Instead of taking on the contemplations and labors that follow, they would much rather have someone else explain it to them. Christianity then has many mechanisms in it that trap the apathetic and get them caught in circular reasoning and logic. It reinforces many of the factors that take away from that independance and individuality. Instead of having the divisions we erect dissolve, they become reinforced. Which is contrary to the fundamentals of such a religion. This is reinforced with systems of guilt, authority, repentence, and appeasement. People see it from a selfish, individually orientated perspective, focusing more on the rewards and acquisition of "heaven" and the rejoining with "God" than with the moralities and the teachings. The division between those who have accepted Jesus and are saved, and those who have not and will go to hell, such as demonstrated in posts by Sandman and many others.

In summary then, the psychological conditioning that takes place produces a type of perspective and fosters a type of behavior that's counterproductive to the progression of society as a whole. This, too, can be seen historically in Christianity and almost every religions violent reactions to ways of thought and life that conflicted with their own. They abandon tenants of nonviolence and instead seek to make their perspective more comfortable, through violent means. The contradiction then spirals out of control. From the external perspective, this behavior is hardly worthy of the just and moral teachings of Jesus. This fosters in the hearts of many an animosity and distrust of Christianity and thus all things religious. They forsake God and all notions of him. The original, beautiful message is defaced by mislead understandings. Again, the babylonian system infects all facets of our society.

This is because this type of system is part of the human psyche. It's reactive to external stimuli and stems from our evolutionary path out of the animal kingdom. Many of these mechanisms can be traced back to interactions of animals in the wild, threat perception and avoidence, reaction, etc. Yet these are not adaquetly addressed. They attempt to seperate the man from the beast and in doing so create a new breed of monster. There is no seperation.

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

ziplock

I think as long as we allow a nation to monopolize violence for the certain class interests of a few, then we're giving to the system as much as any other. To think we can seperate ourselves from this current structuring is foolish and disrespectful of the countless thousands that've given their life to ensure we have the liberty and freedom to enjoy our conscious interactions and exchanges. This democractic system is a light of hope through the jagged rocks and obscuring fogs of historical downpression and governance. In the recognition of truths such as all people being created equal, all people having liberties and rights to freedom and the pursuit of happiness, we have managed to put the power and importance BACK to the people, to a degree, and not the interests of a few. It is now OUR job to continue this struggle, continue this fight with vigilience and mercy, through means of nonviolence, until it is all for the people, in the peoples hands. When all, from Africa and Asia to America, can enjoy their birth right of freedom without fear.

Jesus, the early Christians, MLK Jr, Tibetan Monks, and countless other heroes have shown us not only our ability to come together in the name of a collective interest and overcome those who would seek to obstruct it. We're aware of our collective interest as a social, national body. It's our duty to see that this collective interest is honesty sought after and prioritized, not simply a guise in which to advance a personal, class interest and agenda, such as it has been the last couple years with America.

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.