Sugar420

^expect? is that the word you ment to put? i dont understand even if it was "except"

and why were you mad at me in the first place?

snapshot

yeah it is supposed to be except.



and im always mad at you.

Sugar420

well it still doesnt make sense.
why are you mad?

Woods

Alright, I suppose I owe you an apology for that. You get used to be treated like shit, you just expect it, you know?

__________________
Kishar steals his aunt's morphine patches because he has the moral sense of George Bush

Prisons are built with stones of Law. Brothels with bricks of religion.

ziplock

Sandman I'm happy to see a post like that from you. It's good to see you explaining your position and understanding. Now I ask you are you willing to compromise on your current understanding and perhaps exchange it for a better? Have you heard of Rumi? He was a Persian poet and taught Sufism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi If you happen to get interested. I'm reading a book of his poetry, here's some I thought you, and others here, might be interested in. A litte bit on Jesus.

---

I called through your door,
"The mystics are gathering
in the street. Come out!"

"Leave me alone.
I'm sick."

"I don't care if you're dead!
Jesus is here, and he wants
to resurrect somebody!"

---

JESUS ON THE LEAN DONKEY

Jesus on the lean donkey,
this is an emblem of how the rational intellect
should control the animal-soul.
Let your spirit
be strong like Jesus.
If that part becomes weak,
then the worn-out donkey grows to a dragon.

Be grateful when what seems unkind
comes from a wise person.
Once, a holy man,
riding his donkey, saw a snake crawling into
a sleeping man's mouth! He hurried, but he couldn't
prevent it. He hit the man serveral blows with his club.

The man woke terrified and ran beneath an apple tree
with many rotten apples on the ground.
"Eat!
You miserable wretch! Eat."
"Why are you doing this to me?"
"Eat more, you fool."
"I've never seen you before!
Who are you? Do you have some inner quarrel with my soul?"

The wise man kept forcing him to eat, and then he ran him.
For hours he whipped the poor man and made him run.
Finally, at nightfall, full of rotten apples,
fatigued, bleeding, he fell
and vomited everything,
the good and the bad, the apples and the snake.

When he saw that ugly snake
come out of himself, he fell on his knees
before his assailant.
"Are you Gabriel? Are you God?

I bless the moment you first noticed me. I was dead
and didn't know it. You've given me a new life.
Everything I've said to you was stupid!
I didn't know."
"If I had explained what I was doing,
you might have panicked and died of fear.
Muhammad said,
'If I described the enemy that lives
inside men, even the most courageous would be paralyzed. No one
would go out, or do any work. No one would pray or fast,
and all power to change would fade
from human beings,'
so I kept quiet
while I was beating you, that like David
I might shape iron, so that, impossibly,
I might put feathers back into a bird's wing.

God's silence is necessary, because of humankind's
faintheartedness. If I had told you about the snake,
you wouldn't have been able to eat, and if
you hadn't eaten, you wouldn't have vomited.

I saw your condition and drove my donkey hard
into the middle of it, saying always under my breath,
'Lord, make it easy on him.' I wasn't permitted
to tell you, and I wasn't permitted to stop
beating you!"

The healed man, still kneeling,
"I have no way to thank you for the quickness
of your wisdom and the strength
of your guidance.
God will thank you."

---

WHAT JESUS RUNS AWAY FROM

The son of Mary, Jesus, hurries up a slope
as though a wild animal were chasing him.
Someone following him asks, "Where are you going?
No one is after you." Jesus keeps on,
saying nothing, across two more fields. "Are you
the one who says words over a dead person,
so that he wakes up?" I am. "Did you not make
the clay birds fly?" Yes. "Who then
could possibly cause you to run like this?"
Jesus slows his pace.

I say the Great Name over the deaf and the blind,
they are healed. Over a stony mountainside,
and it tears its mantle down to the navel.
Over non-existence, it comes into existence.
But when I speak lovingly for hours, for days,
with those who take human warmth
and mock it, when I say the Name to them, nothing
happens. They remain rock, or turn to sand,
where no plants can grow. Other diseases are ways
for mercy to enter, but this non-responding
breeds violence and coldness toward God.
I am fleeing from that.

As little by little air steals water, so praise
dries up and evaporates with foolish people
who refuse to change. Like cold stone you sit on
a cynic steals body heat. He doesn't feel
the sun. Jesus wasn't running from actual people.
He was teaching in a new way.

---

Christ is the population of the world,
and every object as well. There is no room
for hypocrisy. Why use bitter soup for healing
when sweet water is everywhere?

---

And a little excerpt from another one not Jesus related that I think is relevent to this thread:

"Lo, I am with you always means when you look for God,
God is in the look of your eyes,
in the thought of looking, nearer to you than your self,
or things that have happened to you
There's no need to go outside."

Think about it.

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

Waves

Sandman.

First of all thank you for typing without insults or bias. it shows some real maturity on your part and if the participants of this forum are willing to show maturity and respect i will show this in return.

I dont push my beliefs on anybody. In fact if anyone is pushing beliefs here its been yourself. I dont need to quote you too much to show that pretty much every one of your posts involves attacking me for not being christian or whatever the hell. But i dont care. I show you facts, i show you truth, and you ignore it.

Here is a wikipedia entry on Jesus. Its not much but its a start if you are willing to throw your beliefs aside for facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

Im not asking you to do anything. Im asking you to think. Do some research, dont rely on generic statements like "gods love is everywhere" because ive been there. I know just as well as you do that these statements have no bearing in reality. Its all in your head. I know how easily people can walk down that path and form these beliefs. I dont judge you or think you a bad person, its just a case of someone growing up around beliefs that arent real. I dont blame you for it at all. All i ask anyone to do is learn.
These are exactly the types of beliefs im talking about sandman. You cannot justify prejudice simply because YOU find homosexuality immoral. "immoral" is an idea you have in your head formed by your experiences in life. there is no such thing as "moral" or "immoral" in life. only when you construct your beliefs around these ideas. You cannot justify hate simply because YOU dont agree with my beliefs. Hate is not some magical thing but something you DO. And many of your posts have indeed been hateful and hypocritical. I just like pointing things like this out. Its not right for you to go off preaching about some kingdom in heaven(which is all in YOUR mind) and then go do hateful things like call someone a queer or a faggot.

That is hate in action. You cannot justify hate with your beliefs. Thats not the way love works. And christianity is all about love, correct?

Why do you think people do bad things sandman? why would someone want to do something like kill a person because they are black? could it be that they believe black people to be lower than them? you cannot justify actions that you do in REAL LIFE with ideas you have IN YOUR HEAD. Thats how bad things happen. people justify doing bad things with ideas they have in their heads. thats what you are doing here.

Thats fucked up. Thats what jesus preached against.

It seems to me that whenever i try to correct one of YOUR beliefs you fall back on your own religous beliefs. It always comes down to some mystical explanation of jesus or god or angels or something, and i just dont buy it. Its all in your mind.

Im not calling you stupid, im not calling you blind, im simply stating the fact that you grew up around beliefs that do not benefit yourself or others.

God is not everywhere. There is indeed a force all around us but you cannot fall back on these beliefs of some entity who is everywhere all the time constantly watching and judging your actions based on some set of rules put on a set of tablets 4000 years ago.

This force is YOU. If you cannot recognize this fact then i cannot help you. Chances are you will subscribe to these beliefs the rest of your physical life and that will lead to no good. But im not going to judge. We all "see the light" sometime, as it were. Some just take longer than others to come around.

Just like its hard for an atheist to understand where YOU are coming from.

Dont you see its all belief? life is based on your beliefs. YOURS. not gods, not jesus'. YOURS. You cant understand where im comin from and i cant understand where your comin from. funny how belief works.
Funny, i think the exact same about you. I dont think everyone that believes in god is dumb. they have simply created a more complex illusion to fuel their beliefs. you can see this in people like j-wonder who actually are legitamitly smart but still hold negative beliefs that fuel our war and destruction in iraq.

Life is YOUR belief sandman. Nothing to do with jesus, or god, or allah, or krishna, or pluto, or anyone.

You.

Thanks for the conversation.

__________________
On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

Sugar420

i do know
i do know what it is like to be treated as less than human
i do know what it is like to believe youre being treated like shit even when youre not
i do know what its like to be accused and blamed for something i didnt do

i also know that its my choice to react and respond however i want in any situation.
in the analects of Master Kuang-ch'in, there is a whole chapter on forebearance.
Master Kuan-ch'in says,
in this, Buddha agrees with Jesus who says

Kenny Bus

although the original post sounded logical to me...

i understand it like this. jesus died for our sins to be washed away, in the sense that his death shows us the error in our ways, seeing as he was as innocent as they come, or maybe a bit more. his life and death taught forgiveness instead of an eye for an eye. he showed us how to forgive so now we can be forgiven.

what sounds nicer than the words "i forgive you"?

and on the side topic of crucifixion... i dont understand why cristians whould use that as their symbol. i mean if there were a second comming, or if you were jesus, would you want to see a crucifix?

__________________
Minds are like parachutes, they're useless until open.

SweetSativa

^just read yesterday on a box of tea An African 'proverb?' or whatever :

"The man who forgives, ends the argument"

From my view, His death is being exploited by Christians (but of course, that is only from where I view at this particular moment); I mean, gods, he had the most incredible messages and they were all gobbled up and overshadowed by the fact that he was crucified. John Lennon tried again... we are in a world of madness yet the madness sees us as the infection. Fear overshadows EVERYTHING, it seems. His death was meant (I believe) to show that the spirit lived when the flesh expired... it was meant to show those who did the crucifying a mirror... to free them from this FEAR (sin... self induced negativity)... but instead (or as well as) today, those who believe that they 'follow' (which he would not have suggested... ever), see that he was crucified by those 'led astray by Satan' and have anger and hatred toward the 'evil doers' rather than love from the 'Savior' ... who lives always as the Way, the Truth, and the Light.... not a man... not a man..... although through men.

__________________
"Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel
http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

GirlsHateMe

I wanna know why people are so insitant on trying to downplay someone elses beliefs...

Not all of us push our faith on other people, so i dont see the need to try to find fault in mine...

SweetSativa

^If you are referring to me specifically... could you please explain how you felt that I was doing this? I had only read one (and still have only read one) entry in this thread and that was Kenny's

__________________
"Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel
http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

GirlsHateMe

I was refering to the starter of this thread...

and every other thread like it...

I dont get on here and tell you all how your going to hell if you dont share my beliefs...so why should I have to tolorate and filter through a bunch of threads telling me how my savior is a joke...

IT WORKS FOR ME...KTHNX...

PSYCHOMANN

It only makes sense to me that a superior being would send somebody to remind us that this experiment has a ringleader....to make the human race a more purified result, traits were bred in. Religion or science or both? Neither? I say they are one in the same...it depends on how you look at the big picture, I guess.....
What counts is how you live, not who you believe in.It's all connected anyway.

__________________
bongsmilie
SARCASM - JUST ONE MORE SERVICE THAT I OFFER......
"Send yer Mamma straight up to the sto',Tell that Bitch to bring home a Faygo"....
ZOLTRON: .......Where Da White Women At??? Oh, Lordy , Lord, Lord- Listen To What He SAY!!!......

SweetSativa

Oh, sorry I misinterpreted. I say, "to each his own"... it is the same 'reflection' as the fear that crucified 'Him'.... no matter what 'lable' is given to 'it' (be it anger toward and belittlement of Christians or of those who are not). I think everyone should have a voice... EVERYONE is His brother.... and ours. It's good that you do not come on and tell everyone they're going to hell... those are the ones who are equal and opposite to the ones who you are referring to here (just to make every attempt at an objective analysis ). But then again, what harm does it do to you for these people to disbelieve? Does it do anything 'to you'? He died... so that you can live~

__________________
"Why is it that when people talk to God, we call it praying but when God talks to people, we call it crazy?"- Touched by an Angel
http://www.youtube.com/user/immelody.../0/DDRj93dQ0O0

deadhead94

No, but if christianity has taught me anything, it is that Jesus' blood was about 10% alcohol......

__________________

BionicChronic

Well I see that this thread got off the subject a few times. Here is your answer why Jesus was sacrificed to save us believers from sin. GODS LAW IS: The price of sin is DEATH! Period. Meaning even the slightest sin is DEATH. (you would be surprised how easy sin is for example just thinking sexual things about some chick or guy is a sin) Now he decided instead of tossing all of us into the lake of fire for eternity when we die (because everybody except jesus has sined at least once in their life) That he would have his sinless son die on the cross to pay for the sins of everybody who accepts Jesus as their personal savior. Also keep in mind it was GOD that created this wonderful herb we enjoy :P He deserves our respect!!! If you have any questions feel free to PM me or post. Peace

__________________
"I don't do drugs, just weed" - Dave Chapelle in Halfbaked. bongsmilie

snapshot

This much I do agree with, and it makes much sense. The whole son of God, God, everything spiritual about the story I feel only goes as deep as the individuals involved, but yes, it was MASSIVELY symbolic, someone who was basically the goodest person in the world to die for the sins (or wrongs, i don't agree with the definition of "sin") of others is deep. That's beyond martyrdom. That's love.

ziplock

That's one fucked up little game he plays.

__________________
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.

PSYCHOMANN

For all intents and purposes, Christ was human...he lived as man, he died as a martyr...was he really sinless? I think not...maybe he had a lot less sin than most people, espescially in a time where only the quickest of wit and the most determined were allowed to make their mark.
He was perceived as a major threat to the Roman Empire, and dealt with thusly. The problem here as I see it is it is all open to interpretation, and as Snap said, it's love.
The "dying for our sins part" I have trouble with.More like...purging the species.What is sin? Is sin something lustful, hateful? Or is sin only a metaphor for all of man's evolutionary shortcomings? Maybe the species was flawed, and Jesus was the boost needed to get us back on track to achieve proper existence, the way the design was intended to work. If you take religion literally, that would suck, because you are only perpetuating a fairy tale that hides the truth. And , after all, isn't that the endgame- the truth?

__________________
bongsmilie
SARCASM - JUST ONE MORE SERVICE THAT I OFFER......
"Send yer Mamma straight up to the sto',Tell that Bitch to bring home a Faygo"....
ZOLTRON: .......Where Da White Women At??? Oh, Lordy , Lord, Lord- Listen To What He SAY!!!......

Mclennison

A. the bible(or maybe just certain factions of Christianity) says the price of sin is death. That doesn't make it true. Thats a bit harsh and seems to be in opposition to love and since God is loving(100%) its pretty logical that thatsn not God's law. God forgives, period.

B.What lake of fire? (edit) There is Heaven and we do live on mother earth which has celestial qualities, how many realms are there until we become heaven? I hope its the next one! (/edit)

C. You explain what allegedly happened with jesus dying(allegedly for our sins) but you did not explain why...

D. If you were joking with this post, work on your ability to make it come across as fascetious(sp?). If you don't believe this shat but were just trying to get someone riled up, then touche!

So yea, my logic is that love is forgiving and God is loving so he just staight up forgives you when youre wrong. Ok, i hear it all that time that jesus had to die to "wash away ppls sins." That explains what allegedly happened but not why. If you look at it logically, why is someone being (allegedly) murdered, which is a sin, payment for other sins? It isn't. I actually have an answer for WHY God staight up forgives you when you err, hes loving. You can continue this arguement but i can already tell you that if you do, lack of reason will be your downfall...

BTW martydom to me would be spreading your message until whoever wants to kill you seeks you out and kills your ass, not fucking walking staight up to the people that want u dead, actually knowing they are going to kill you, and being like here i am do what you want with me. Thats more like giving up.