SageTree

In light on the talk in the ' God doesn't exist thread ' I thought I'd bring back another hashing of ideas.

Bump

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verklingen

waves did u know id get a boner when you wrote all that?

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Sugar420

why a boner for that?

verklingen

perspective is my spanish fly

edit: i will say tho, that while it's all in your mind and each of our minds respectively. . . what isnt?

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

verklingen

i will never understand why so much importance is given to jesus' death. did he teach us more in life or in death?

imo believing in jesus means more than believing he died for us. if one must believe that, it is only the first step and there is much work ahead of him. i can see how this concept serves as a kind of stumbling block for some, because the general understanding is to be baptized and believe. but believing he is your savior and believing in him are not equal. i believe jesus called on us to step up to the plate and decide what kind of world we wish to create. many of us profess a desire for happiness, peace, abundance, well-being, etc, and jesus pointed out ways in which our behaviors may be prohibiting the realization of those desires. that's what he did for me, anyway.

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Waves

we gotta get into some more hardcore debates around here i miss those days

snap come baaaaaaack

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On this life that we call home
The years go fast and the days go so slow

GanjaPlease

think about how ritualistic that is. I think the only reason he would send his own son to die, would be to end the ritualistic behavior of sacrificing a goat that could supply food for a family for a week; or grain that could provide several loafs of bread; or even spend money on buying certain incense, or spending the time to find the right materials to make the incense so that a god will forgive them of sins.

its ridiculous...

Mr.E

Since SageTree bumped this, I guess ill post something that I thought about recently. I didn't think it was threadyworthy, but it fits here.

I have a friend who is I guess what you could call a born again christian. Ive had many discussions with him concerning spirituality, religion, and life in general. It's difficult (for me atleast) to have the type of conversations I'd like to have on these types of issuses with him because to him the bible is god's word. Everything in there is irrefutable and the exact truth according to god. So everything I might have felt or experienced or thought, can easily be written off by him, because it is contradictory to the bible or just not in there. I dont have the definitive evidence for my beliefs, like he does with the bible. So i try not to view religion and god(if?) through the filter of christianity, since that is also what i was raised on. But if it is fair game for him, and others to pick small pieces of scripture and use them to justify things, then other things should be able to be under the same scrutiny. Kind of a long preface, but I felt most of that was relevant. Well here's the thought i had.

So according to the Christian beliefs, Jesus=God=Holy Spirit, there's the holy trinity. I don't think that anyone who believes is going to dispute that. If god sent jesus to die on earth, he basically committed suicide? I was under the impression that suicide was something to stay away form according to the bible. Sure he comes back to life in 3 days, but the deed has been done, no?

And ya, it's not really suicide if you are an eternal being as the bible contends, but he did off his worldly body.

The Rev

Yeah, the story has a lot of holes in it. For example, how big of a sacrifice is it, REALLY? They say God gave his only son, but Jesus went right back to Heaven (where God lives) when he died, so there's no actual loss there for God. As for Jesus, they say he suffered alot for us, but again, Jesus is really God, so he could make the pain feel good if he wanted to. How would we know the difference? The other thing is the Judas issue. Judas is considered to be the Bible's biggest doosh, but the truth is, he was the lynchpin of God's plan. If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus, Jesus would never have died for our sins. All Jesus did was hang on a cross for three days (maybe with no pain, or even enjoying it, we'll never know) but Judas went to Hell for Eternity to save the rest of us. Can't we acknowledge that he was the one to make the true sacrifice, and at least give a nig his props?



The Rev

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Mr.E

I don't really have an intelligent reply to that Rev, but it makes sense and I got a laugh.

Edit:
I guess that's the catch with religious texts. Its all or nothing, there's no in between. Because honestly, a lot of what jesus is saying is good stuff(if not all, but there's a lot of stuff that i disagree with), and if people who claim to be christians actually lived by what he said and not what fits for them, the world would be a better place. Over time it would seem like the ideas have been cheapened. Reading "WWJD" on a braclet is NOT going to make you a better person.

It's really hard for me to get a complete thought down about religious ideas, without writing a paper to fully explain myself, but if i could explain my overall view on religion and god in one metaphor, it would be this: I'm not going to buy a house just because I like the door; I'd rather be homeless. It's more satisfying for me to build my own house from scratch than to only enjoy the door.

GanjaPlease

I have never thought of it that way before. It has crossed my mind several times however i never really thought about it in depth. It makes sense, also God is the biggest hypocrite in history. He has killed women and children, he has allowed women to be raped, he has destroyed entire cities.

he was also the most successful terrorist in history the proof is in the definition of the word

Terrorism - the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear
WordNet Search - 3.0

Sugar420

o please.

you guyz need to think a little more carefully.

1. i already answered in this thread about the issue of sacrifice. please read my post

2. so many times i see somebody ask a religious or theological question and it gets blown off by somebody that cant be bothered to put a little (honest and real) consideration into the issue being raised. so they just dismiss the whole thing as "belief" and derail the whole issue into a preset position they find more easy to defend with a little intellectual sophistry.

you friend does not have the complete and final answer on what the bible is about or what it means. so i think its ok to challenge him on his interpretation.
it likely he hasnt read the whole thing or studied it very carefully and put a lot of thought into what its about

Dozer McDozer

haven't you heard of what man is capable of? the shaolin monks are the most notable example. controlled breathing and our minds can accomplish a lot. i shouldn't have ended it here

I've been thinking... People can do extraordinary things when in rapport with their unconscious and perhaps Jesus is the son of god because he is in full rapport with his unconscious/subconscious/that which connects all- God.

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Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance. - Albert Einstein

Properly trained, man can be a dog's best friend - i'll get his name once i get book back

SageTree

I read a good angle of the story that really made alot of sense with my personal experience. It talked about Jesus, as an enlightened master, and death/resurrection was to show that body death could be over come. A God/Self Realized sage have power to manifest their atoms as they please, in conjunction with there connection to illusion or day dream that is Creation. Therefore upon realizing their connection and relative wholeness of God, they see that the mind is stronger and can transpire at will to followers and those who need guidance. Christconsciousness is the term used to describe this enlightened state. Christ in the wording doesn't mean to infer Jesus, but the perfection of consciousness present in Buddha, Krishna and many nameless masters of Self Realization and the Selfs true nature in Beingness.

This made alot of sense to me and for the first time in my life, even growing up Christian, that I felt I had read something that really explained in words, what I could not transpire in my own words. Consciousness is the word used as with this belief its that one can mindfully touch consciousness and its not a seperation into the unconsciousness, which sounds a bit like oblivious dettachment, rather than willful awakenedness.

You post Dozer made me think of the Enlightened Master, and Breath control certainly ties in with the rest of the practices described in what I read.

In kindness
SageTree

ps. Looks like it was an okay thing to resurrect this thread, speaking of that.

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GanjaPlease

This is all very interesting, I may have negative views on the christian portrayal of God. However I have little experience with other religions except what is taught in schools.

When I speak of God I mean in the christian sense. however this concept of God I have never really thought much about. rather than thinking about a conscious being, but a sort of all inclusive everything. I'll give that concept a thought until I have it sort of organized in my head.

Parallax

do any christians here acknowledge the possibility that some or all of the bible may not be true? consider this: the information it contains went through a "broken telephone"-type system between the time of the alleged events and around a couple hundred years later when it was first recorded. and then translated many times over and edited into the version we have now.

what makes the bible so infallible that the stories it describes are not to be disputed or questioned?

"jesus" wasn't even what they called the guy back then. if something as simple as the name of the messiah has been skewed with time, perhaps the rest of the bible is just as skewed, if not more.

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Dozer McDozer

Fair point. I think of course stories have changed, but teachings can remain the same for a very long time. Especially with writing.

Haven't the teachings in the east remained the same a long time?



hmmm i need to read the bible soon again as i just remembered the three Magi that were mentioned. They came from the east is what it says i think.

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Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance. - Albert Einstein

Properly trained, man can be a dog's best friend - i'll get his name once i get book back

GanjaPlease

well some of the basic principles would have remained the same however there are a lot of stories that I believe are similar to folk tales, they aren't true but they have a true meaning.

I have also thought of the idea of, what if the people of the time read the bible for entertainment like we do novels. what if at that time Moses was actually just a clever writer and then others actually believed him and started adding on to the story. Its a plausible idea, because I have seen many series of books that have the same plot line and writing style but are written by different authors.

and even if that isn't true, im sure that the visions he had apparently seen to view creation (thats how my minister said it) didn't actually happen. that story was probably a story that had been told for hundreds of years before Moses ever wrote it.

SageTree

I read a book recently talking about Jesus, the Essenes ( a sect of Judaism mentioned in the Bible) and the scrolls found in the cave near Naghamadi.
There in taking a socialogical look at the documents in the caves, talking about the themes of those documents, Enoch being principle here, as well as discussing what would appear 'normal' to a person of the time.
Drawing comparisons from the present Bible, and contrasting that with exact words in documents that are 100BCE or slight earlier, really was something wild to see. The sermon on the mount of olives is almost verbatum found in one of these scrolls.
After this the author looks at how these books were edited out of the Bible a long time ago and verses changed based on Greek Codex, some of the oldest copied vesions. Enoch is mentioned in Jude, as well as an advisory from Paul for women to keep their heads covered, based upon Enoch and Watchers, but blatantly refering to the Watchers. 1 corinthians 11:10.
Lastly the author having summed up writing of the Bible, books that did and didn't get in, Essenes lifestyle and ritual, the history of the finds themselves, he talks atlast about what we can do with the knowledge of other texts. Ultimently he says, as a Christian Reverand, that these deepen his faith in the teaching of Jesus, And merely making certain parts of the meddled document, more clear with deeper context on the words.

I think that is the larger importance of all Texts to myself is having a grasp on the Breath and not geeting tangled in the untangible word, connecting rather with the tangible good.

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hookedonkronik

Let me know what you guys think of this concept.

Gnostic Christianity.com. The outlawed logic/logos teachings of Jesus.

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"jews make money out of nothing, and in turn god allows them to pretend they are the one people (chosen by him of coarse) whov are destined to "rule the world...probably the universe too."