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Old 06-26-2012, 08:58 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Nearly free electricity and gas mileage that hybrids only dream of

So, I wasn't real clear on just where to post this, but this seems as good a place as any. It's primarily about a gasoline alternative driven truck, but can be readily applied to any stationary gasoline engine as well. The technology is nothing new, it allowed German citizens to continue driving their automobiles all through WWII, even though whatever little gasoline that could be had was directed straight to the armed forces.

The idea is that as wood is heated in the combustion process, just before it begins to turn to charcoal, a gas is created and released that contains a variety of reasonably clean burning combustible gases. These gases are collected and introduced into a fairly standard internal combustion engine (with modified air/fuel metering), where it can be used as a low octane replacement for gasoline. The math works out to basically a pound of woods chips/scraps smaller than a 6" piece of 2"x4", will power a small block V-8 enough to travel one mile, and still be capable of getting you a ticket. Here's the full article from Mother Earth News which also includes a pdf with diagrams on how you can do the conversion yourself for about $125 I think it was.

Wood Gas! Wood Gasification Powers This Truck - Green Transportation - MOTHER EARTH NEWS

Some potential applications other than driving cars that come to mind would be;

Electric power generators
Water supply and irrigation pumps
Farm tractor
House or pontoon boat
Particle beam laser death ray (my pet project for vaporizing somebody's fuckong drones)
Rogue Navy aircraft carrier - for my flight of Ozian flying monkeys (I want a drone that'll scare fuck out of the pricks that run the government shit... see how the little twats like a taste of their own assholes)

There are also a handful of small companies already building wood gasifier furnaces for home and business heating.

The idea of stickin' one of these in an old school bus (Furthur Too?) or RV and just takin' off is soundin' pretty sweet. Any place that you can pick up scraps of wood, you've got free gas. That's pretty fuckin' cool. I picked up a pair of 10kw generators from a recycling center for $50 each that had burnt/blown engines. I can weld so I'm thinkin' of using some scrap steel that I've collected to build a rack for the two of them and fabricate a kind of split shaft to drive both off of a wood gas fueled junkyard small block V-8 or straight six. Might even be able to source the whole thing right out of an old truck. Set the generators up to be spun by the rear axles and I've got off grid house power for 5-600 pounds of wood scrap a day.

That sounds like it might be a lot of work and hassle, but I have two friends that are arborists, and they typically have to pay to dump their 5 ton just about every day. I also process a fair bit of lumber and firewood, so I accumulate wood scrap like nobody's business, plus - our local solid waste bureau has a yard waste composting center where locals can load up on all of the compost or mulch that they want for free, and a pick-up load of the mulch takes me about 15-20 minutes to load and it probably averages about 1-1/2 tons - so about 5 or 6 days worth of free electricity for an hour's work and drive ain't too bad.

Why is it not economically feasible to hydroponically grow food stuffs completely in-doors? Heating and electricity for lighting costs too much. Now what happens when we realize Tesla's dream, and get nearly free electricity and residual heat to boot... from scraps of wood and yard waste?

Think about it this way. Even if you had no ready wood source, black and yellow locusts seem to grow just about anywhere, and fast too. They have a higher BTU potential than oak, and grow like weeds in some of the shittiest of soils. They have a fairly upright habit when young, and an acre of them intensely planted instead of a resource wasting lawn would yield a perpetual harvest that could power the 20kw electrical generating system forever.

I'm in!

Damn... Canada's looking good now.

Fuck BP. Fuck the utility companies., and fuck the asshat politicians that they bought and paid for.
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:15 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Yea, no doubt it's only a matter of time before Canada is invaded for one reason or another.


Gas, wood, water.... take your pick.

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Old 06-27-2012, 06:56 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yea, no doubt it's only a matter of time before Canada is invaded for one reason or another.


Gas, wood, water.... take your pick.

And so what are you up to my ex-patriot friend... scoutin' for the interlopers?
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:08 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Could you summarize the process of how they heat the wood to release the gas?

How is this more efficient than just burning wood to fuel the production of electricity?
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:19 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Double post. Effing iPhone
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:22 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Yea, no doubt it's only a matter of time before Canada is invaded for one reason or another.


Gas, wood, water.... take your pick.

pfffttt canada WISHES we would annex them jk jk

here's an interesting historical aside about invading canada:

Fenian Brotherhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"To get the Fenians out of the area, both in the St. Lawrence and Buffalo, the US government purchased rail tickets for the Fenians to return to their homes if the individuals involved would promise not to invade any more countries from the United States."
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:07 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Could you summarize the process of how they heat the wood to release the gas?

How is this more efficient than just burning wood to fuel the production of electricity?
The wood is essentially super heated and it begins to decompose at an accelerated rate, giving off a small amount of methane along with carbon monoxide, CO2, water vapor and nitrogen among other things. Once the off gassing is complete, what's left is charcoal, which is in turn burned to provide the heat to keep the process going. There are a variety of filtration and exhaust gas re-burn processes that are used to help control/eliminate the toxicity of the exhaust, but in the end the system described is at worst less than half as polluting as a typical internal combustion engine burning ethanol bastardized petroleum distillates.

Burning wood, such as in a fireplace or camp fire, or even a great many wood stoves, allows a tremendous amount of heat energy to escape in the exhaust flume. The smoke and what have you that you can see includes amounts of combustible gases that are utilized in the gasification process more efficiently. The newer generation wood stoves that feature catalytic converters and redesigned burn chambers are basically attempting to accomplish the same thing by capturing that escaping heat and or gases to be more completely burnt before leaving up the flue. Some of the newer oil burners do this as well.

Gasoline still has a huge advantage in terms of potential btu's per volume of measure, so obviously there are some trade offs, but I can't grow gasoline in my yard or pick it up for free along the side of the road.

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pfffttt canada WISHES we would annex them jk jk

here's an interesting historical aside about invading canada:

Fenian Brotherhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"To get the Fenians out of the area, both in the St. Lawrence and Buffalo, the US government purchased rail tickets for the Fenians to return to their homes if the individuals involved would promise not to invade any more countries from the United States."
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:05 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Gasoline still has a huge advantage in terms of potential btu's per volume of measure, so obviously there are some trade offs, but I can't grow gasoline in my yard or pick it up for free along the side of the road.


What's the ratio of btu'/vol compared to gasoline/vol? If you have to burn twice as much for the same amount of energy, it'd hardly be "carbon neutral."

I'm sorry to give you so much guff on this, Galt; but as a future Petroleum Engineer, you're kind of digging into my pocket here!
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:35 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Do the math brother. The Fed has increased the money supply by what... 2000% in the last 5 or 6 years, and gas is only twice as much over that time because there's an election coming up. Once November is behind us and the emperor ensconced I expect all hell to break loose - if not sooner. I applaud anyone becoming an engineer. Unfortunately I believe the resource that you'll be looking for will only be available to the elites. The rest will all be too busy starving and dying in wars to be worried about anything else.

The economy is retracting, and the Fed and the gov'ts of the world are doing everything they can to try and stop it, when what they should do is butt the fuck out and let the inevitable corrections, crashes, contractions and failures occur, so we can reboot from a clean slate. This half measure bullshit is just prolonging the agony. Hell, Obama's entire presidency has been nothing but.

Remember Iceland. They did it, and they are a whole hell of a lot better off for it now. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania implemented their own real austerity measures years ago, and now they are the only kids on their block with a pot to pee in. Of course we won't hear anything ever again about Iceland because one of the first things that they did was to throw all of the crook fuck bankers right in fucking jail. I have a life sized picture of Goldman Sachs ever letting even their mail boy do any time, much less the likes of Bernanke, Greenspan, Jamie Dimon or that fuck Corzine.

So... sure ya don't wanna check out forestry?

Carbon neutrality is all bullshit and you know that I know that you know that - so don't poke me with that stick again just for entertainment. That said, dry distillation of wood and fractional distillation of gasoline are completely different processes, obviously where one is a solid and the other a liquid. The differences in volumetric measure vs. their differing densities are significant, so your btu by volume question isn't really going to show much of value. Either way, the more relevant issue remains - that I can obtain wood for the dry distillation just about anywhere on the planet between the two poles. I don't see my neighbors bein' too thrilled over the prospect of me building a petroleum cracking tower to polymerize low quality crude distillates into usable gasoline molecules in the back yard. I already mentioned that the wood gasification conversion mentioned in the opening article was better than half as polluting as regular gasoline, so even if it required twice the volume to bet me from 'A' to 'B', it's still better than burning gasoline where our air and water are concerned. Another part of that is the fact that processing wood is a lot less earth unfriendly than drilling off shore and refining crude. Not really much of a comparison there when you look at the whole enchilada.

Now are you seriously interested in this, or do you just wanna make sure that you're gonna have a job after graduation?

Oil has remained king because of its abundance and extremely high potential energy. That status is only significant to people that have enough of a viable currency to be able to purchase some. I don't care if it takes me twice as long to get from 0-60, I just want to be able to get where I have to go without going broke, and without walking.

Just curious... how far can you drive on gasoline for free?

There is no environmental argument to be made, so this is purely an issue of economics, and on that note - free is awful tough to beat.
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Old 06-28-2012, 12:42 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Do the math brother.
Maybe after I finish watching all of these thermal dynamics videos from youtube. What the fuck is entropy anyways? :P

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The Fed has increased the money supply by what... 2000% in the last 5 or 6 years, and gas is only twice as much over that time because there's an election coming up. Once November is behind us and the emperor ensconced I expect all hell to break loose
Outside allowing//banning drilling on public land, how does the president control prices?

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I applaud anyone becoming an engineer. Unfortunately I believe the resource that you'll be looking for will only be available to the elites. The rest will all be too busy starving and dying in wars to be worried about anything else.
Then I'm setting myself up to be needed by the people with the money :P

And I think this whole idea, that we are running out of fuels for energy, is ridiculous. We have plenty enough resources to take care of our needs for the foreseeable future. We're just not taking advantage of them. Why the fuck are we doing everything possible to get rid of coal plants. Why don't we take advantage of our abundance of NG? I think government regulation should take much more responsibility for the "energy crunch" than the "evil energy producers."

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The economy is retracting, and the Fed and the gov'ts of the world are doing everything they can to try and stop it, when what they should do is butt the fuck out and let the inevitable corrections, crashes, contractions and failures occur, so we can reboot from a clean slate. This half measure bullshit is just prolonging the agony. Hell, Obama's entire presidency has been nothing but.

Remember Iceland. They did it, and they are a whole hell of a lot better off for it now. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania implemented their own real austerity measures years ago, and now they are the only kids on their block with a pot to pee in. Of course we won't hear anything ever again about Iceland because one of the first things that they did was to throw all of the crook fuck bankers right in fucking jail. I have a life sized picture of Goldman Sachs ever letting even their mail boy do any time, much less the likes of Bernanke, Greenspan, Jamie Dimon or that fuck Corzine.
Agreed.


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So... sure ya don't wanna check out forestry?
30,000$ a year to dress up like smokey the bear doesn't sound appealing to me at all.

Quote:
Carbon neutrality is all bullshit and you know that I know that you know that - so don't poke me with that stick again just for entertainment. That said, dry distillation of wood and fractional distillation of gasoline are completely different processes, obviously where one is a solid and the other a liquid. The differences in volumetric measure vs. their differing densities are significant, so your btu by volume question isn't really going to show much of value. Either way, the more relevant issue remains - that I can obtain wood for the dry distillation just about anywhere on the planet between the two poles. I don't see my neighbors bein' too thrilled over the prospect of me building a petroleum cracking tower to polymerize low quality crude distillates into usable gasoline molecules in the back yard. I already mentioned that the wood gasification conversion mentioned in the opening article was better than half as polluting as regular gasoline, so even if it required twice the volume to bet me from 'A' to 'B', it's still better than burning gasoline where our air and water are concerned. Another part of that is the fact that processing wood is a lot less earth unfriendly than drilling off shore and refining crude. Not really much of a comparison there when you look at the whole enchilada.
So this is really just fits in line with your goal of being detached from the "grid of society." I can respect that.

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Now are you seriously interested in this, or do you just wanna make sure that you're gonna have a job after graduation?
I think the science behind it is very interesting; but it won't be more feasible than fossil fuels for another 200 years.

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Oil has remained king because of its abundance and extremely high potential energy. That status is only significant to people that have enough of a viable currency to be able to purchase some. I don't care if it takes me twice as long to get from 0-60, I just want to be able to get where I have to go without going broke, and without walking.
Brazil is doing ok with NG.... I hear it's working out in China as well.

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Just curious... how far can you drive on gasoline for free?
You know that nothing is free...

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There is no environmental argument to be made, so this is purely an issue of economics, and on that note - free is awful tough to beat.
You, of all people, know that money is just a tool of an economy to represent value. Personally, I think my time and labor holds value.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:28 AM   #12 (permalink)
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The problem is lack of control.
You cannot control free energy, so you cannot regulate it, or profit from it. No profit, and It's never gonna happen.
People generally do NOT invent/build things merely for the sake of humanity these days.
Such is what I've seen in most alternative energy applications.

Admittedly, if I were to prove, say a Tesla design for free electricity actually works,
I would most likely be want to be wealthy from it, and not discredited/dead/poor.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:58 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The problem is lack of control.
You cannot control free energy, so you cannot regulate it, or profit from it. No profit, and It's never gonna happen.
People generally do NOT invent/build things merely for the sake of humanity these days.
Such is what I've seen in most alternative energy applications.

Admittedly, if I were to prove, say a Tesla design for free electricity actually works,
I would most likely be want to be wealthy from it, and not discredited/dead/poor.
Well the idea or notion of "free energy" is physical impossible. You will always need something to be converted, and then simple supply and demand steps in. ie trees will become more valuable...... can we say CORN!

I firmly believe every energy company is looking hard for the next form of energy. Even if its not as profitable as oil, it ultimately well be profitable for the company.
If, for example, GE found a technology that allows us to turn dirt into energy, they would be able to sell the converter and everything involving that processes, and if it work well everyone would need/want one. The CEO are not looking out for the company 75 years down the road, if they can make a zillion dollars now, they are going to, fuck the future of the company, they will live wealthy lives then die.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:52 AM   #14 (permalink)
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First let me say that a discourse on physics will lead to an aneurism for me it makes my head swell so much, so I would suggest that we try the KISS method and reserve a separate thread for Carnot cycles, valid state variables and definable/indefinable properties relating to time, distance, and mass. How about for the purposes of general discussion of alternative fuels, we use entropy as a term for energy that is not available for work as the fuel is utilized in a thermodynamic process. On second thought, how about we just acknowledge that the O.P. postulate reflects an effect of the economic system - where other fuels become more practical as the stability of the means of exchange between people deteriorates.

Your comment regarding the value that you place on your time here is I feel the most salient. Gasoline represents a convenience in the busy day of a hunter gatherer who must; arise and prepare themselves to interact with a given social strata wearing a usually specific uniform, follow very similar prescribed routes of travel at the same time that most of their surrounding population is also attempting to get somewhere (causing blankets of slowed and or stalled traffic and wasted time). They will be gone for the most of the high productivity part of their waking day, and as such need to have ordered and arranged all that they leave behind and unattended, so that it might survive during their absence (thus requiring yet more time and effort in preparation for the period of absence). The duration of absence is such that typically sustenance must be prepared, packaged, transported and stored until such later time as they have the chance to eat it, or a co-worker steals it out of the community frig. Without the effort and time to prepare all of thses things, someone else must be engaged to perform these functions on their behalf, such as a dog walker caring for your dog, or the carry-out employees and the facility that prepares your lunch. These are not without cost, and of course that cost is dealt with variously by the hunter gatherer's ability to expend their valuable time and effort in order to acquire a common means of exchange from one party that will allow them to take advantage of these supposed "conveniences" that will allow them to focus more specifically on the activities that they find most productive or rewarding.

What I have just described is a thermodynamic system with entropy.

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The differential between what you are paid for your time spent laboring to earn more money, and the rate at which the debasement of the common means of exchange occurs (inflation of the currency) are on two divergent planes. The rate of inflation always accelerates (under any central banking scheme) at an exponentially greater rate than do the lagging increases in wages. This increase in entropy can be best understood as being the calories burned by you in trying to earn more increasing as your dependency on more and more convenience grows, making your departure from the ideal Carnot cycle accelerate as time spent increases. This could be rendered mathematically and expressed as a formula, but I feel the point is made and obvious. Part of the retracting economy typically includes with it a move toward more efficient systems, and the simplest of these is to deal more locally.

This requires less energy inputs all of the way down the line from the need for independently controlled personal transport devices for every working adult, to the fuel that they consume, the insurance they require, and the entire supporting system structure of roads, refineries, supply transport, pollution, physical injury, maintenance & repairs to the vehicles and their respective operators, etc. Your premise regarding a simple expression of the physics behind gasoline's superior potential btu's is not an accurate reflection of how this issue shakes out in the reality that you ignored.

It is quite true that nothing is free, and I should have realized that you were not about to allow a figurative remark pass by without comment (touche... we are related ), but my reference was more literally directed at the ability to provide a means of powering independent travel (as well as a great many other "conveniences") without having to subject ourselves to more of the energy robbing entropy of exchange that the use of the central bank's scrip involves. There is no salable product that will ever reflect anything approaching a true value where the means of procurement is a note of debt that looses value at an ever increasing rate of decay. If I hand it to you and you hand it directly back to me, it is already worth less than when I held it the first time. This is the core element of my motive for working harder in my daily labors to limit my exposure to that particular form of feudal sodomy.

. ____________________


Your comment regarding my aspirations to "detatch from the grid of society" is akin to your erroneous labeling of Dr. Paul's Non-interventionist approach to foreign policy as being isolationism. Because I choose to barter and trade direct with a more local group of conveniently accessible friends and neighbors does not mean that I have detached from anything. To the contrary, I would suggest that my approach results in a much higher quality and level of interaction with a greater number of people in this world than any cubicle creature will likely ever be able to fathom.

I have taken the time to get to know very personally every person in my neighborhood, and I work at expanding upon that every day. Partially because I am always looking for new trading partners who may have a better resource than I (the old lady at the top of my street makes a better blackberry preserve than I have the time or inclination - or black berries - to do, so she's happy to exchange some of her over production for something of mine that she has neither the time or energy to provide for herself. Since our system is more direct from producer to producer, there is little to no opportunity for the entropic involvement of gov't and money changers. Both parties involved are the exclusive controllers of the value that they receive for their effort - not some piece of shit central bank.

As enamored of Ms. Rand's Objectivism as you seem, I would think that the purity of this approach would be particularly self evident to you. The increased value that I receive for what I produce allows me to offer greater value for those that I trade with, thereby enhancing their ability to do likewise with others. This is exactly what causes the type of HEALTHY deflation that has lead to ALL od our REAL past prosperity. It was only due the the idiotic allowance by the citizenry that the entropic central bank/money changers were ever given a foot hold, and as usual - they destroy everything that they touch in their perpetual effort to rule the world.

. ____________________


Good luck with that streamlining of your descendancy into serfdom. The elites will always have need of a good number of us to keep them housed and clothed and fed. I have just decided that after having done my time laboring as one of their serfs, that I deserve and desire a better quality of life than just hard work, hypertension and an early grave.

I get up when I am no longer tired, or because the new day looks so great that I din't want to waste any of it lying in bed... but if I choose to I can (especially now that I finally finished the automatic doors on the chicken coop ). I set my own "work" schedule, and the work that I do strikes me as not being work at all. Yahookians above all else understand the joys of growing wondrous things with little more than soil, sun and water. I just can't envision any scenario where cracking hydrocarbon molecules could give me the same level of satisfaction... but to each his own.

I eat healthier than anybody I see lined up at McDingles or KFC, and I drive pretty much only when I feel like it - which is never during rush hour (just contemplate what that term alone means to your life over all... and you're in a hurry to engage in that twice a day for decades).

I still have to pay taxes for the roads that are falling into disrepair and the failed schools that I have had nothing to ever do with, as well as supporting the welfare state's perpetual redistribution of wealth to help continue their legacy of ignorance and sloth - but hey... that's a part of life that I hope to impact by constantly spreading the word and setting a better example.

. ____________________


I was not attempting to engage in the silliness of suggesting that we, or our great great grand children, will ever live to see the exhaustion of fossil fuels. My point is just that what we more and more find ourselves having to sacrifice in order to avail ourselves of these latest and greatest "conveniences" and technologies, is just not a reasonable value for my labor. Yes I cut wood. I even use fossil fuels to do it, but I'll bet you anything that a day in the woods with chainsaw in hand is gonna trump a day at the tar sands collecting core samples every time.

. ____________________


BTW... have you ever really looked at what Smokey the Bear wears to work? You got a problem with blue jeans and boots? At least I'm not hangin' myself everyday and passing through metals detectors, lie detectors, speed detectors, patriot detectors and drug detectors to do what I do. Fuck ALL of that.

Your observation about the impact of natural gas was interesting. Are you aware that as NG's depressed pricing and increased availability has allowed it to increase its market share, it has created an equal and opposite reaction in the coal market, which in turn will seek a new level of equilibrium as it returns to favor once the exploiters get everybody that they can connected to the gas grid and start jacking prices as they manipulate supplies. The best positioned public utilities world wide are those that can switch back and forth as supplies and prices wax and wane. None of that matters for consumers however, since the very nature of a commodity is that we will always be charged the maximum amount that we are judged able to bear. Better to not be involved in the entropy of that equation at all if possible, and I am constantly striving to arrive at that point.

FYI, the forestry guys aren't exactly starvin'. I was just being a wise ass, but the comparison is certainly worth at least a look I'd say. Just as there was a huge demand for IT and tech types prior to Y2K, and a present demand for petroleum engineers, I foresee big things for the renewable resource sector in the years ahead. Remember, it's the newest developing technologies that create the job demand opportunities after the fact. We need our best and brightest to be working on the next great thing, not chasing the shrinking scrip note to further expand the last century's technology. The biggest "pay off" if you just want money, is typically for the first people through the door, the guys riding the face of the wave, not the timid late to commit also rans. Not suggesting that petroleum has hit the skids, or is no longer important, only that it has already hit its zenith and is has started the slide into buggie whip land.

Average Forester Salary Information plus Job, Career Education & Unemployment Help

While true that petro engineers earn great salaries, the reason is obviously because there is an immediate need, and the work itself requires a lot of travel to some pretty fucked up places. Talk to the fellow here who has been chased by polar bears and had a drilling platform roll out from under him. In the end, spending your day working around cancer causing agents in some of the most distressed areas of nature on the planet must be worth something.
Another point to consider is that the demand that results in higher than average wages is for experienced people with some time in grade. You are still at least a four year degree a way from entering the market as the guy with no experience, so it's certainly worth trying to evaluate the alternatives from a six to ten year window of earning potential if the compensation is that important. Also, Nuclear engineers make even more if you really want a fat check. I say again though, look over the hill and around the corner when making your choices. When you hit your peak earning potential maybe 20 years from now, we very well may be on the verge of abandoning fossil fuels completely... what then? And again, how long did it take Henry's Ford to put the maker of the world's finest buggie whips into Chapter 13?

Regarding the POTUS, it is a giant ego stroke and public jerk off in our face by narcissistic asses and idiots. They effect absolutely nothing in any positive way. That is no longer their purview. They are there to entertain the sheeple and keep them distracted with contrived threats and diatribe while the miscreants behind the curtain continue to rape, pillage and plunder. While I enjoy the debate and bitching over the choice between two turds, I fully recognize that they are but a symptomatic pustule of the rancid diseased vagina that is the real problem.

So... tar sands and refinery air in support of the feudal lords, or what's left of fresh air and trees as your office mates? Not sure that it's occurred to you or not, but I'l bet the foresters know where all of the best grows are found. What are ya gonna grow in tar sands besides a melanoma?
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:21 AM   #15 (permalink)
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The problem is lack of control.
You cannot control free energy, so you cannot regulate it, or profit from it. No profit, and It's never gonna happen.
People generally do NOT invent/build things merely for the sake of humanity these days.
Such is what I've seen in most alternative energy applications.

Admittedly, if I were to prove, say a Tesla design for free electricity actually works,
I would most likely be want to be wealthy from it, and not discredited/dead/poor.
Agreed, and that realization is exactly what lead to Tesla's lost funding. What proper capitalist wants to pay to develop something that could be given away. Of course there's also the argument that it would have freed up more capital for bigger and better things elsewhere, and of course somebody was still gonna have to get busy building and maintaining all of those Tesla coils - so I think it's safe to say that his experience could be attributed to a lack of any real vision by the industrialists and financiers who just couldn't get their minds around what he was doing.

BTW... how do you suppose wireless chargers work (regarding your comment about "if" Tesla's ideas actually worked)?

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Well the idea or notion of "free energy" is physical impossible. You will always need something to be converted, and then simple supply and demand steps in. ie trees will become more valuable...... can we say CORN!

I firmly believe every energy company is looking hard for the next form of energy. Even if its not as profitable as oil, it ultimately well be profitable for the company.
If, for example, GE found a technology that allows us to turn dirt into energy, they would be able to sell the converter and everything involving that processes, and if it work well everyone would need/want one. The CEO are not looking out for the company 75 years down the road, if they can make a zillion dollars now, they are going to, fuck the future of the company, they will live wealthy lives then die.
I agree with everything that you say, but again - the word free is relative and not meant as a literal term to detract from the central premise. My perspective is purely that this is something cheap that I can do right now, and that with a half acre of my land and a half acre of my neighbor's, we can raise enough wood between us to provide ourselves with a perpetual energy source that we control ourselves. That issue of control IS key, but the control needs to be by the individual for it to be of any real value to us. What company makes whatever next big thing means only that we switch masters, but we remain enslaved. My interest lies in being able to be free myself, not that I be able to get shit for free. I need little from the society in which I live, and that is by choice. I expect little and I take as little as possible, which is why I have such a low opinion of those who expect much and demand more.

With the ability to fuel my transport with something that I make and control myself, I also have little of the constraints on my travel opportunities that those addicted to the pump suffer under. That means I'm that much freer to go where I want, when I want, and associate with an even greater range and diversity of people. This issue of controlling our energy is yet another means of the rulers to limit our ability to freely associate and work together in a way that would preclude them from intervening. By making travel difficult or impossible by helping to make it too expensive, they also mange yet another level of control over our lives that I have no interest in suffering under.

I don't care how fast the newest I-fuck is, and I don't care if G.E. made an artificial vagina out of dirt. Those things would still interest me, but I would not desire to place myself at their beck and call by subscribing to a lifestyle where their latest geegaw becomes a necessity for me to sustain life. That is the abdication of control and self determination that has plagued mankind since the dawn of the industrial revolution. I prefer to adapt and adopt in a little more conservative fashion that allows me to just say no whenever the fuck I wish. I am the original control freak, and I don't surrender that too often without considerable resistance. It is also why I am one of the freest persons I know, and it is specifically what my government wants fewer of... hence my incurable paranoia and cynicism where they are concerned.
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:48 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I have never seen a real wireless charger. I know I am off topic, but as far as my understanding of physics goes, electricity does not travel very well through the air. I probable should have looked more in to the Telsa Coil before writing this but oh well!
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Old 06-28-2012, 02:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I have never seen a real wireless charger. I know I am off topic, but as far as my understanding of physics goes, electricity does not travel very well through the air. I probable should have looked more in to the Telsa Coil before writing this but oh well!
Info is good, and the chick dishing it out is even gooder.

The Future of Wireless Charging - GeekBeat.TV
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Old 06-29-2012, 12:23 AM   #18 (permalink)
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First let me say that a discourse on physics will lead to an aneurism for me it makes my head swell so much, so I would suggest that we try the KISS method and reserve a separate thread for Carnot cycles, valid state variables and definable/indefinable properties relating to time, distance, and mass. How about for the purposes of general discussion of alternative fuels, we use entropy as a term for energy that is not available for work as the fuel is utilized in a thermodynamic process. On second thought, how about we just acknowledge that the O.P. postulate reflects an effect of the economic system - where other fuels become more practical as the stability of the means of exchange between people deteriorates.
I agree with the parameters of the debate.

Under these conditions, petroleum products will be the king pin for at least the next 50 years. I use the evidence that we've been on the "verge of alternative energy options" since Nixon and haven't made one bit of headway in terms of being able to compete with petrol.

Quote:
Your comment regarding the value that you place on your time here is I feel the most salient. Gasoline represents a convenience in the busy day of a hunter gatherer who must; arise and prepare themselves to interact with a given social strata wearing a usually specific uniform, follow very similar prescribed routes of travel at the same time that most of their surrounding population is also attempting to get somewhere (causing blankets of slowed and or stalled traffic and wasted time). They will be gone for the most of the high productivity part of their waking day, and as such need to have ordered and arranged all that they leave behind and unattended, so that it might survive during their absence (thus requiring yet more time and effort in preparation for the period of absence). The duration of absence is such that typically sustenance must be prepared, packaged, transported and stored until such later time as they have the chance to eat it, or a co-worker steals it out of the community frig. Without the effort and time to prepare all of thses things, someone else must be engaged to perform these functions on their behalf, such as a dog walker caring for your dog, or the carry-out employees and the facility that prepares your lunch. These are not without cost, and of course that cost is dealt with variously by the hunter gatherer's ability to expend their valuable time and effort in order to acquire a common means of exchange from one party that will allow them to take advantage of these supposed "conveniences" that will allow them to focus more specifically on the activities that they find most productive or rewarding.


What I have just described is a thermodynamic system with entropy.
Everything has entropy (outside of liquid helium; but we're not getting into physics ) the larger the "system" the more entropy... However, the larger system has less entropy on a per capita basis than multiple small systems combined.


Quote:
The differential between what you are paid for your time spent laboring to earn more money, and the rate at which the debasement of the common means of exchange occurs (inflation of the currency) are on two divergent planes. The rate of inflation always accelerates (under any central banking scheme) at an exponentially greater rate than do the lagging increases in wages. This increase in entropy can be best understood as being the calories burned by you in trying to earn more increasing as your dependency on more and more convenience grows, making your departure from the ideal Carnot cycle accelerate as time spent increases. This could be rendered mathematically and expressed as a formula, but I feel the point is made and obvious. Part of the retracting economy typically includes with it a move toward more efficient systems, and the simplest of these is to deal more locally.

This requires less energy inputs all of the way down the line from the need for independently controlled personal transport devices for every working adult, to the fuel that they consume, the insurance they require, and the entire supporting system structure of roads, refineries, supply transport, pollution, physical injury, maintenance & repairs to the vehicles and their respective operators, etc. Your premise regarding a simple expression of the physics behind gasoline's superior potential btu's is not an accurate reflection of how this issue shakes out in the reality that you ignored.
I think we just have different views on globalized economy. Me being in favor; and you being against.

I believe that globalization would ultimately be more efficient if it were constructed under pure terms of capitalism (this does not involve any form of a central banking system).

Quote:
It is quite true that nothing is free, and I should have realized that you were not about to allow a figurative remark pass by without comment (touche... we are related ), but my reference was more literally directed at the ability to provide a means of powering independent travel (as well as a great many other "conveniences") without having to subject ourselves to more of the energy robbing entropy of exchange that the use of the central bank's scrip involves. There is no salable product that will ever reflect anything approaching a true value where the means of procurement is a note of debt that looses value at an ever increasing rate of decay. If I hand it to you and you hand it directly back to me, it is already worth less than when I held it the first time. This is the core element of my motive for working harder in my daily labors to limit my exposure to that particular form of feudal sodomy.
Value is always subjective and never constant.


Quote:
Your comment regarding my aspirations to "detatch from the grid of society" is akin to your erroneous labeling of Dr. Paul's Non-interventionist approach to foreign policy as being isolationism. Because I choose to barter and trade direct with a more local group of conveniently accessible friends and neighbors does not mean that I have detached from anything. To the contrary, I would suggest that my approach results in a much higher quality and level of interaction with a greater number of people in this world than any cubicle creature will likely ever be able to fathom.
This is semantics. I'll try to define my terms better in the future.

I meant you're trying to make your own "gulch"

Quote:
I have taken the time to get to know very personally every person in my neighborhood, and I work at expanding upon that every day. Partially because I am always looking for new trading partners who may have a better resource than I (the old lady at the top of my street makes a better blackberry preserve than I have the time or inclination - or black berries - to do, so she's happy to exchange some of her over production for something of mine that she has neither the time or energy to provide for herself. Since our system is more direct from producer to producer, there is little to no opportunity for the entropic involvement of gov't and money changers. Both parties involved are the exclusive controllers of the value that they receive for their effort - not some piece of shit central bank.
We agree then. Government involvement in the economy is the root of our current ailments.

Quote:
As enamored of Ms. Rand's Objectivism as you seem, I would think that the purity of this approach would be particularly self evident to you. The increased value that I receive for what I produce allows me to offer greater value for those that I trade with, thereby enhancing their ability to do likewise with others. This is exactly what causes the type of HEALTHY deflation that has lead to ALL od our REAL past prosperity. It was only due the the idiotic allowance by the citizenry that the entropic central bank/money changers were ever given a foot hold, and as usual - they destroy everything that they touch in their perpetual effort to rule the world.
As I've said. You've given up on the world and started your gulch. I guess I'm just Rearden at this point and haven't given up yet.


Quote:
Good luck with that streamlining of your descendancy into serfdom. The elites will always have need of a good number of us to keep them housed and clothed and fed. I have just decided that after having done my time laboring as one of their serfs, that I deserve and desire a better quality of life than just hard work, hypertension and an early grave.
I have no intentions to be a serf.

Quote:
I get up when I am no longer tired, or because the new day looks so great that I din't want to waste any of it lying in bed... but if I choose to I can (especially now that I finally finished the automatic doors on the chicken coop ). I set my own "work" schedule, and the work that I do strikes me as not being work at all. Yahookians above all else understand the joys of growing wondrous things with little more than soil, sun and water. I just can't envision any scenario where cracking hydrocarbon molecules could give me the same level of satisfaction... but to each his own.
You just have a definition of needs than most other people. You have less needs so you have less work to do to fulfill them. Don't get it confused though, you still pay your debt to reality every day.


Quote:
I was not attempting to engage in the silliness of suggesting that we, or our great great grand children, will ever live to see the exhaustion of fossil fuels. My point is just that what we more and more find ourselves having to sacrifice in order to avail ourselves of these latest and greatest "conveniences" and technologies, is just not a reasonable value for my labor. Yes I cut wood. I even use fossil fuels to do it, but I'll bet you anything that a day in the woods with chainsaw in hand is gonna trump a day at the tar sands collecting core samples every time.
I'll let you know after I spend a few days in the fields and we can compare stories.

Quote:
Your observation about the impact of natural gas was interesting. Are you aware that as NG's depressed pricing and increased availability has allowed it to increase its market share, it has created an equal and opposite reaction in the coal market, which in turn will seek a new level of equilibrium as it returns to favor once the exploiters get everybody that they can connected to the gas grid and start jacking prices as they manipulate supplies. The best positioned public utilities world wide are those that can switch back and forth as supplies and prices wax and wane. None of that matters for consumers however, since the very nature of a commodity is that we will always be charged the maximum amount that we are judged able to bear. Better to not be involved in the entropy of that equation at all if possible, and I am constantly striving to arrive at that point.
Would you sell or trade the fish from your farm for less than they're worth?

Quote:
FYI, the forestry guys aren't exactly starvin'. I was just being a wise ass, but the comparison is certainly worth at least a look I'd say. Just as there was a huge demand for IT and tech types prior to Y2K, and a present demand for petroleum engineers, I foresee big things for the renewable resource sector in the years ahead. Remember, it's the newest developing technologies that create the job demand opportunities after the fact. We need our best and brightest to be working on the next great thing, not chasing the shrinking scrip note to further expand the last century's technology. The biggest "pay off" if you just want money, is typically for the first people through the door, the guys riding the face of the wave, not the timid late to commit also rans. Not suggesting that petroleum has hit the skids, or is no longer important, only that it has already hit its zenith and is has started the slide into buggie whip land.
I'm not doing it for the money. The money (should be) a representation of my value and achievements.


Quote:
While true that petro engineers earn great salaries, the reason is obviously because there is an immediate need, and the work itself requires a lot of travel to some pretty fucked up places. Talk to the fellow here who has been chased by polar bears and had a drilling platform roll out from under him. In the end, spending your day working around cancer causing agents in some of the most distressed areas of nature on the planet must be worth something.
My current job sends me to dangerous places (which I don't mind); and I smoke a pack a day (covers the cancer).


Yes, extracting value out of an area considered to be a "distressed area of nature" appeals to me.


Quote:
Another point to consider is that the demand that results in higher than average wages is for experienced people with some time in grade. You are still at least a four year degree a way from entering the market as the guy with no experience, so it's certainly worth trying to evaluate the alternatives from a six to ten year window of earning potential if the compensation is that important. Also, Nuclear engineers make even more if you really want a fat check. I say again though, look over the hill and around the corner when making your choices. When you hit your peak earning potential maybe 20 years from now, we very well may be on the verge of abandoning fossil fuels completely... what then? And again, how long did it take Henry's Ford to put the maker of the world's finest buggie whips into Chapter 13?
NG power plants are fit to put nuclear power plants out of business. I'm also willing to get an engineering degree in more than one field (it's rather common to do so, actually).

Quote:
Regarding the POTUS, it is a giant ego stroke and public jerk off in our face by narcissistic asses and idiots. They effect absolutely nothing in any positive way. That is no longer their purview. They are there to entertain the sheeple and keep them distracted with contrived threats and diatribe while the miscreants behind the curtain continue to rape, pillage and plunder. While I enjoy the debate and bitching over the choice between two turds, I fully recognize that they are but a symptomatic pustule of the rancid diseased vagina that is the real problem.
Our current government is the result of deviating from our federalist beginning. Weaken the federal government and we fix most of our problems.

Quote:
So... tar sands and refinery air in support of the feudal lords, or what's left of fresh air and trees as your office mates? Not sure that it's occurred to you or not, but I'l bet the foresters know where all of the best grows are found. What are ya gonna grow in tar sands besides a melanoma?
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