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Old 01-22-2011, 02:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Cool Need help please with what is wrong with my seedlings - with pics & Thanks

Hi everyone. First off I'm kind of new to the site. I registered a couple months back but haven't been very active. I've read quite a few posts here and I think it's a pretty solid forum. Thanks to all the vets and noobs for posting pics and thanks for all the helpful advice to anyone who has taken the time to help out.

I've read up quite a bit on all different forums and google searches. I've watched the Mr. Green Youtube series and even read most of the Grow Bible. Even though I know some of that can be a little outdated nowadays I've also gotten information from a lot of different sources and I think I have a decent understanding for a first timer.

That said I tried a couple months ago to grow some bag seeds using Rapid Rooters and unfortunately an under cabinet light in a revamped closet. I think I might have overwatered them and also knew I was doing several things wrong because I didn't have the right equipment. Besides the under cabinet light not giving very much light, my reservoir wasn't completely light proof and I was getting some algae. I was using tap water and our town's water isn't that great. A lot of calcium and chlorine and who knows what else, and I was constantly having trouble with high ph. I was using a simple ebb and flow, but I think I used it too early, before my roots were formed, which ended up causing my Rapid Rooters to be pretty much soaked most of the time. i think I had some internal root rot and the plants just started to die off.

By the way, the nutrients I was using (probably too much and too early) was General Hydroponics Flora Series - with the Hard Water version of the Flora Micro because i was using tap.

However that was mostly a test run. I was waiting to locate my 100W MH/HPS combo gym-type light. Its one of those clunky magnetic ballast - all in one units, quite heavy with the internal ballast. I have hanged it in the closet and it will work for now. I believe the 100W MH, then the 100W HPS for flowering should work for about 1-2 plants. I am aiming to get at least 1 decent plant out of this set up. Since this is round 2 I have changed some things. I am using gallons of distilled water and bought a FloraMicro regular (not Hard Water). I think this will give me the best nutrients with the least extra junk in the water. Also when it's time my reservoir is now light proof and I have an air stone ready to go into it and also a desk fan in the closet.


ROUND 2:

I ordered 10 regular Northern Lights seeds from Nirvana. Very good service (might post in the seed bank reviews). I got them in the States about 10 days from placing the order. Very discrete. Not going to explain the way they packed it in order to look out for them. Since I wasn't totally sure that the bag seeds I had were very good, I wanted to make sure I was doing as many things right as I can, so I changed my setup like I said above, and now I know I have good genetics, too.

I soaked 2 of the seeds in distilled water for about a half day or so, until they sank to the bottom. Then I took 2 Rapid Rooters, which unfortunately I had let dry out, and I soaked the Rooters in 1/4, 1/4, 1/4 TSP/Gal nutrient/distilled water solution for about a half hour. Once they were mostly saturated I squeezed them carefully and stopped when water would show only after I had squeezed them most of the way. So in other words, moist but not really wet. Then I put the seeds in pointy side up about 1/8" into the rooters and put a pinch of the bottom of the plug in the hole to fill it in. Then I wrapped the outside of a tupperware container in duct tape to make it light proof. I gave the bottom of the tupperware like 20 sprays with distilled water to make it wet in there. Then I put the two Rooters in a 2x2 section of the black plug tray that I had cut off, and set that in the tupperware. Then I put it on a heating pad on medium. I opened the lid whenever there was water on the lid wet enough to drip off and threw that water down the sink. This way they would be moist but not soaking wet. They sprouted in about 2 days. Once they were popped I cut the lid and then taped some plastic from a ziploc bag over the hole, as to make a little greenhouse/propagation tray, whatever it's called. Then i put them under the 100W MH about 6" away from the light. I have been spraying them with 1/8 1/8 1/8 about 2 times a day as the light has been keeping the rooters to look dry, and I have been trying to alternate between both 1/8 solution and just plain distilled. I moved them up to within 2-3" of the MH the next day. They didn't seem to mind.

They seemed to grow somewhat. I thought I saw a root tip on each of them trying to poke out of the bottom after about 2-3 days, but nothing since. At about day 4, I took some Clonex gel that came with the rooters and mixed some with distilled water in a little cup. It seemed to dissolve. I took the Rooters and spun them through the water to get the clonex solution all over the outside of the plugs without really saturating them too much.


Growth Report:

At 3-5 days the sprouts shot up to about an inch and a pair of fan leaves on each seedling emerged, and so on both plants there is 2 cotyledons and 2 fan leaves. This I thought was acceptable speed. I figured roots would come a little bit later, and I know they take 1-2 weeks to show. The next day I took the lid off of the tray to allow them to get the light more directly. I didn't know if they needed the high humidity anymore now that they have germinated. However it is at day 8-9 and there hasn't been much improvement in size at all, and of course still no visible roots. 2-3 days ago (days 6-7), the two fan leaves on each plant started to point upwards. Not so much curling like you hear about, but kind of like a Venus Flytrap closing. Like the leaves were on a hinge, so to speak. They slowly kept closing up even the next day.

Now it has been about 8-9 days since I planted the seeds. I have been wondering why the growth has been incredibly slow (2 fan leaves at day 2-4 and look almost identical at day 8-9). So yesterday I was thinking the leaves moving up might have meant it wasn't humid enough in there, since they are seedlings with weak roots, I figured they need to absorb moisture from the air more. So I put them back in a humid greenhouse type environment with a toothpick hole in the top plastic every inch or so. That was yesterday afternoon. Then today the cotyledons were yellowing/browning, somewhat starting at the tip. Fan leaves looked okay. I've read up, suggesting a Nitrogen deficiency, since it starts at the tip. Magnesium deficiency is more on the leaf, not starting at the tip.
According to This Post (lengthy but seemed to nail my problem with the cotyledon tips if you read the Nitrogen deficiency part).

Also supposedly the cotyledons are supposed to yellow and fall off. But with only 2 fan leaves!!! That's too soon in my book. So I assumed it was a Nit deficiency and I made a 3 Grow, 2 Micro 1 Flora TSP/Gal solution and mixed it to 1/3 of that, so a 2 to 1 water to solution. So yeah went from a 1/4 1/4 1/4 to 1, 2/3, 1/3. Not too heavy duty for these Netherlands genetics I assume. I was going with the idea that the slow growth was because of Nit deficiency and that these genetics are good (from what I hear), so maybe these little babes are wanting more nutes! So I did that about 2 hours ago and then moved them up to 3" from the MH again, right now with no lid of any kind. I want them to dry a little before, and decide if I want to go greenhouse with them or not right now.

So what would be causing the cotyledons to yellow with only 2 fan leaves per plant!!! Too soon right? (Only 8-9 days from planting)

Is it overwatering? Is it low N levels? What have I done right and wrong?

Should I just hack this effort and do it slightly different again with 2 more seeds? Heck, I have 8 more seeds. I can definitely spare 2 more if that's what it takes.

Any and all ideas are appreciated. I am doing my best and I know I have the ability to grow a great plant. I just need a little help right now. xD

Sorry for the lengthy post. I wanted to catch up with you guys and let you know where I am and what stuff I know. This way any vets can spot what I am doing wrong faster without having to guess. Anyone who took the time to read this I appreciate it and any help you can offer me would be amazing.

Here are a couple of pics showing my NLs at 8-9 days (today).
Sorry for mediocre pic quality. Let me know and I can re-up some better ones.

Remember to stay high when you can and when you want.

Peace


P.S. I have been doing 18/6 light cycle.
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Last edited by proggyjammer; 01-22-2011 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Added P.S.
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:09 PM   #2 (permalink)
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how wet is the soil? you might be overwatering.
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Well that could be, now that I think of it. I do water em a couple times a day, I don't like it when the plugs get really dried out looking, so i try to keep em moist. I might be keeping em too wet. Is it okay to let them get dried out for a little bit?
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Wall of text!

Don't give up on them just yet!

No need for nutrients yet. I don't know what soil you're using but seedlings need hardly any, I'm sure they have enough in the soil for now. The nutrients may well be causing the yellowing by scorching.

What's a rapid rooter?

Don't mist the plants then leave them under the lights- the water drops focus the light and can cause burning. You don't need to mist them if they aren't drying out- and they don't look underwatered in the pics.
You can tell if they need watering by the weight of the pot- it may look a little dry on top but that's not a problem if you can still feel there's still a little weight of water in the soil.

How hot is it at the level of the leaves? Can you hold your hand there for a minute without the light feeling hot? If it is hot you need to raise the light.
I don't know if you need the heating matt- the light may well generate enough heat.

If you can get hold of a cheap pH dropper test kit you can monitor and lower the pH of tapwater with vinegar or even lemon juice.
You can let tapwater stand for 24hrs in an open container to let the chlorine evaporate.

There is no benefit I know of to using clonex or any other rooting hormone on seedlings.

Don't panic!!11

I think these seedlings can bounce back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proggyjammer View Post
seeds from Nirvana. Very good service (might post in the seed bank reviews)... Very discrete. Not going to explain the way they packed it in order to look out for them.
Quite right too. Cheers for the heads up.

Edit- they'd appreciate a gentle breeze- like a small fan not pointed directly at them.
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:29 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Yeah, no nutes yet and watch the watering. Its easy to water too much, and a common mistake. Watch light intensity and best of luck!
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:33 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Also, what is your planting medium? If your having them in something that has zero nutes, you may wanna transplant to soil. It has a little nutes for growth, holds water, has natural pH buffers, and you're gonna have to dirt up eventually.
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Actually sorry I am not using Rapid Rooters, I am using Root Riot. My mistake. But they are basically the same thing. They are hydroponic starter plugs for seeds and clones.

Here's a pic of what they are in attachments.
And here is the website.

As for right now they are just in the cubes in one of those little black plug trays. As for soil. My medium is those cubes plus I am going to be using Sunleaves Rocks. They are like Hydroton only more jagged. Once the roots hang out of the cubes, I'm just going to put some rocks in one of the 6" plastic net pots that I have, then put the cube in so the roots hang down, then surround with rocks for support. I'll stick the baskets in my ebb & flow that I have in there. I have a solid tub like from walmart that is solid green, that will have my nutrient solution and an air stone and a pump and drain going to the tray up above. Then I have a timer so I can set daily feeding/filling times for the pump.

And I want to have the roots just hanging into the nute solution when it fills, if I am understanding it correctly. I think it should be a pretty solid setup, with GH nutes and good water. I should be able to get a good veg cycle once I can use the ebb and flow.

But for now they are just in the rooters. I'm hoping it was just the nute/water on the leaves that burned them from the light. I think the one last spray I did on them before I posted the topic probably gave them plenty of all nutes they can really need right now, like you say. As far as the light, it is not too hot to hold my hand there, so i think we are alright. Good looking out.

As far as a heating pad, I'll try to find a way to get one under there on medium setting or something to start.

And as for water I'm not using tap anymore. Ours is kind of funky here where I live so I've been using distilled from gallon jugs in the store. And I have a ph dropper kit and some ph up/down. I heard like 5.8 for hydro if possible right?

To sum up I have to agree with you was probably just water on the leaves that burned it. Light is bright but not too bad. It was probably that. I'll try to water way less and if I have to water I'll try not to get any on the leaves. And hope for some roots!!!!!!! xD

Thanks for all the help so far. Any other comments are cool and I'll keep you guys posted.

Also is a pic of my ebb and flow from the side. I just don't have any solution in there or any pump timers on now, but my prop tray tupperware is sitting on top.

Deuces

Edit: btw cool sigs everyone
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:24 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Just keep them in that middle ground with watering- don't let them dry out but don't keep them soaked all the time- it's ok to soak them when you do water but let some air in from time to time.

For seedlings formulex is good- it's made by the same people who make those cubes.
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Ok. I thought about it, and the leaves were maybe closing up or whatever because they are fully saturated with water already. And that might explain the slow root growth too. I was reading somewhere earlier that plants use up the oxygen in the water pretty quick then you have stagnant water. I think they must be wanting oxygen now. I need a better ratio of air to water. I need to keep an eye on it and just keep em barely moist. And make the roots stretch to get the water. Everyone agrees that it it overwatering so I'll keep an eye on it and let you guys know how it goes. Thanks for all the help. Very appreciated.
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Old 01-22-2011, 05:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Sorry for double post. Got a heating pad under there, and still have it about 3-4" from the tops. Now we play the waiting game.
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
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You can add hydrogen peroxide to your next watering to increase the Oxygen concentration. If you can find 99-100% medical grade peroxide, even fucking better! Don't add just peroxide though. Always add shit in solution with water.
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:27 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Alright word up then! Can anyone second the idea of peroxide? because I will probably try it soon! Sounds like a good idea.

Edit: Ok I googled it and found a nice page that talks about it here that talks about dosages too so I'll mix some according to that and see how she takes. It talks about mixing like 2-3 tsp per gallon if you have the 3% kind. That's what a I have from the store. My hydro store is pretty far from me so this will do the trick. Thanks for the advice.

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Old 01-22-2011, 06:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Ways to use Hydrogen Peroxide in the Garden

I know what I'm talking about man. If theres any doubt in my mind about a growing technique, I say so in my post.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:42 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Yeah that's no problem at all. I just want to be 100% sure before I add anything new to my plants. It was a good idea. I'm about to add a weak solution of it to em here in a little bit. Sounds pretty promising TBH.

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Old 01-22-2011, 07:51 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Sorry if I came across sounding like an asshole. I re-read what I posted and it may have come across that way. Tonight is hella busy for me lol.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Oh yeah i was kinda wondering if I made you mad or something, lol. But it's all good don't worry about it. I got some of the 3% stuff in the brown bottle (the common kind) and I'm gonna mix it up with some distilled and put just a little bit on, then back to not overwatering, lol.

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Old 01-22-2011, 09:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I've never used peroxide. I've heard good and bad about adding it.

Things I do know?
Rapid rooters suck ass. Weed is the easiest and hardest plant to grow.
If you have a Metal halide or High Pressure Sodium lamp that close to your plants then the reason the leaves are curling is cause you are heating the hell out of them... I mean the moisture
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:32 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Which is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandaweedman View Post
I've never used peroxide. I've heard good and bad about adding it.
Ok, when I am watering I am using 3% peroxide, the topical form in the brown bottle that you get at walmart pharmacy area. I couldn't get any pure-grade kind. Ok and with this strength I am mixing 2 tsp of the 3% per 1 gal. of distilled water, and that is what I'm using to water the plants. I'm letting it remain fairly dry to get some Oxygen in there. But when I'm watering I'm making sure not to get the leaves wet at all now, only the root plugs and maybe the stems. Hopefully the weak solution will help and not hurt them at all.

As far as the light goes, I just measured, and it is exactly 4" from the leaves to the glass that is in front of the bulb. But it is only a 100W MH, most people are using 400 and 1000's.

Could I be burning them with too many Lumens, even though it's not too hot? Because it doesn't get extremely hot at all. Also there is a 8" desk fan to the right that blows 24/7 on medium.

Question: Is the glass cover on the lamp bad for growing? Is it filtering out light rays that the plant needs? I know you can technically get a tan in front of a window, but they rays are reduced to something like 4% of the uv rays when going through a window. So I will take the glass off it will help. Someone let me know please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandaweedman View Post
If you have a Metal halide or High Pressure Sodium lamp that close to your plants then the reason the leaves are curling is cause you are heating the hell out of them... I mean the moisture
What did you mean? Is it is the light or is it the moisture? Thanks for everything, btw.
Edit: oh I get it. Heating the moisture out of them, not the hell, lol xD

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Old 01-23-2011, 05:33 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Any glass in front of a light will reduce it's output to some degree.
Hold the back of your hand 4" from that light for a while, is it warm after say 5 minutes or is it hot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by person I am quoting
oh I get it. Heating the moisture out of them, not the hell, lol
Yeah
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:40 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Well i have held my hand there for at least a couple minutes and it doesn't keep getting hotter, it gets to a point of being pretty warm and then quits. Just to be safe, I'll remove the glass and move the light up a few more inches and then just get closer only if I need to. Who knows they could be missing like half the spectrum or something because of the glass.

Also I started two new NL seeds the other day, soaked them in distilled/weak peroxide for about 12 hours. Then got some root plugs ready and kept them in a ziplock bag until time then I popped em in. I would say about 24 hours ago since I planted the moist seeds. This time I am going to keep it only moist, and make sure not to over water. I can see how rapid rooters / root riot can be the easiest/hardest thing to grow in. They absorb pretty much every drop of moisture in a 20 mile radius, lol. So I realized you can't have too much standing water in the germination tray, even if the plugs are propped up and not touching the water. The rooters will still grab the moisture anyway, so you need to have them at perfect moisture then keep it fairly air tight. I'm prety sure my problem is root rot or the starts of it right now so these next seeds i'm not gonna make the same mistakes.

Edit: The main thing is just to let it go, and not fuck with it too much. That's what causes the overwtering, putting too much nutes on, etc. I won't be using nutes of a while and just let my new seeds coast and be happy.

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