kameelyun

Okay. First of all, there is no doubt whatsoever that those Jews (and Gypsies, homosexuals, etc.) were forced out of their homes, against their will, and taken to these places of inhumanity and misery, uprooted from free and civilized society.

That being said, every event in history deserves to be examined and re-examined. Historians are still closely scrutinizing the Lincoln assassination, for example. Yet until just a couple days ago, I was thoroughly brainwashed into believing that the only people who critically examine the Holocaust are neo-Nazi bigots who desperately want an excuse to glorify Hitler.

One of the early members of the 9/11 movement, Eric Hufschmid, started entertaining Holocaust revisionism on his website in 2006, and my heart sank. I figured that 9/11 truth had opened his mind so much that his brain fell out. Since then he has been regarded as something of a black sheep in the movement, understandably. By chance, I decided to see what he was up to these days so I checked out his site and found a page about David Cole, Jewish revisionist.

I was very unwilling to consider what Hufschmid had to say (esp in light of some of his somewhat vitriolic rants on his site which do reek of anti-Semitism), but by God was I intrigued to understand how a Jew could question any aspect of the Holocaust. I mean, I'd heard of self-haters before but this idea seemed to strain credulity in this case. So I figured if there was a person with high standards for research and accuracy, Cole would be the man.

I watched this video and was totally blown away. In particular, the interviews with Dr. Franzicek Piper, the senior curator at Auschwitz, are very revealing.

Here's the short of it: The main Auschwitz gas chamber, which is shown to thousands of people from around the world every year, is touted as being in its original state by the trained tour guides who give the group tours. David Cole paid extra for a personalized tour and started asking Alicia some very awkward questions. Alicia insisted the gas chamber was in its original state, as she is trained to do. Eventually Alicia sent for her supervisor, who suggested Cole's questions would be thoroughly answered by scheduling an interview with the aforementioned Dr. Piper. However, fearing such a meeting might not take place, Cole asked the supervisor if the gas chamber was in its original state or a reconstruction. The supervisor said reconstruction. Dr. Piper also admits it's a reconstruction.

Until a couple days ago, I had occasionally heard the "theory" that the gas chambers were really used to kill lice and prevent the spread of typhus. Now I know, after hearing Dr. Piper, that it's not a theory - they were. It's not denied by anyone.

Dr. Piper, in defending the traditional gas chamber narrative, claims that while there were disinfestation chambers used for killing lice, there were OTHER gas chambers used for killing people. When Cole asks why the traces of Zyklon B are so high in the delousing chambers and so negligible in the homicidal ones, Piper's answer is: The delousing chambers were being operated 24/7, while the homicidal chamber was used only about 20 minutes every 24 hours. This does kind of destroy the narrative of assembly-line scale gas chambers killing people day and night.

I was also very shocked to find out that even respected Holocaust historians like Deborah Lipstadt have concluded that the human lampshades and soap stories have been discredited.

To those who would say: The Nazi persecution was bad enough even if there were no gas chambers, David Cole articulates why it's important to be skeptical about the gas chamber portion of the Holocaust, because it is the unique feature of the Holocaust that makes it stand out from other genocides (and, in tandem, the six million figure, allegedly possible thanks to 24/7 gas chambers).

To be continued, but I want to see a few responses first...

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BMFMonoxide

*sigh*

These Holocaust revisionists have repeatedly debunked.


this thread=FTL

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LetsPlayYourWay

This thread is only a loss if you ignore that the guy is a PROFFESOR OF LAW AT GEORGETOWN and IS JEWISH HIMSELF and that his works are published and that he still has his job.

The problem i have is that people like Earnst Zundel use this guys work as back up to every single one of their actual bullshit claims. Cole has defended Zundel in the public when it came to the criminal charges of revisionism. Cole's work has been backed up by HISTORICAL fact and evidence so people like Zundel see his defense of their right to question history as backing of their claims. That's the equivalent of you saying someone supports what the most racist motherfucker is saying just because you say he has the right to say it.

Ego Tripping

I don't have time for a while to watch the vid...just curious, is it stating that millions of jews did not die and the vids of the mass graves and bulldozing of bodies was faked? Or just that there was no gas chambers and people died of starvation, disease, etc..?

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Hostile

Congratulations on the most illegible sentence posted since j-wonder left. But seriously, the same thing happened to Noam Chomsky when he defended holocaust denier Robert Faurrison.

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LetsPlayYourWay

I don't know what the video says but Cole proved that the gas chambers setup at Auschwitz were not the original ones and were in fact recreations. As far as i know he himself did not state anything about the jews them selves rather the Pole's intentions in passing off the recreations as the originals.

Ego Tripping

Yeah. As long as nobody tries to say that millions of people died at the hands of a controlling group (Nazis) than sure. But to deny there was a mass genocide of some kind just seems like grasping. I'm sure there was some fishy shit going down but the I think the main idea is that people were killed in large masses through various means. What those means were, seems a bit irrelevant to me.

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Hostile

Well shit, of-course it's relevant. Everything must be proven, no matter how sensitive or frequently assumed. I believe the holocaust occurred, but if there's reason to believe that the methods proposed would have been incapable of pulling it off then hell yes it's relevant, if only to discover the truth.

I don't really have an opinion right now, but sometime next week I'll watch these videos, then find a set of counter-points and try to come to some sort of a conclusion.

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Hostile

Surely the only real accomplishment with regards to history, is discovering and proving "the truth"? We should know how many people died, if only out of respect to them.

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Hostile

Just the opposite, dude. Not kindness, but an ernest interest in historical accuracy, and even if their only intention is to attack the Jewish people, if they can present factually accurate information which undermines the holocaust then surely it's worthy of consideration?

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kameelyun

The latter.

I don't know of any *genuine* revisionism which states that photographs of bodies were faked or photoshopped.

The number of "millions" is questioned.

Numerous political groups would have a propaganda motive to tweak and exaggerate the already inhuman horrors. The reason is without the gas chambers, as David Cole says, we are left with a tragedy but not a unique tragedy. A tragedy whose horrors were duplicated by both the Axis and Allied powers. 9/11 Activist Jimmy Walter, when distancing himself from Eric Hufschmid's new foray into holocaust revisionsim, stated:

There could be many other examples of horror stories from Russian labor camps, even the detention centers Eisenhower created for Japanese prisoners.

It is the assembly-line scale gas chamber claim, along with the mystical six million number, which gives the Nazi Holocaust narrative its special flavor.

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kameelyun

Well, I've never found anything which "debunks" the David Cole interview with Auschwitz' senior curator.

There's more to the David Cole story. After he published the video in the OP, he was viciously attacked by the Jewish Defense League, the JDL, which the FBI lists as an illegal terrorist organization, by the way. Read David Cole, Monstrous Traitor

Then, I believe in 1998, probably fed up with constant threats like that above, Cole officially renounced all his holocaust revisionist work. He never gave any scientific or empirical reasons for why he was wrong. He simply said that he was wracked with self-loathing during the period in which he was a revisionist. I have to run right now and my computer's running slow, so I don't have time at present to provide links for this recantation, but anyway, that's the current state of the David Cole saga...

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Hostile

Not speaking for kameelyun here, but why does there have to be an ideological motive? Why can't the question be important in itself?

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LetsPlayYourWay

Hey terry, you are the revisionist, because you just stated that only 6 million died when it is more than twice that, or are you only counting the ones who are Jewish as if they somehow deserve special treatment or as if the holocaust was only against them?

Numbers killed by the NAZIS, excluding the 6+ million Jews.

Soviet prisoners of war 3,000,000
Polish Catholics 3,000,000
Serbians 700,000 (Croat Ustasa persecution)
Roma, Sinti, and Lalleri 222,000 to 250,000
Germans (political, religious, and Resistance) 80,000
Germans (handicapped) 70,000
Homosexuals 12,000
Jehovah’s Witnesses 2500


But what about the millions that died at the hands of the Jews working for Stalin, here from one of Israel's own papers, an editorial: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1%2...2999%2C00.html

kameelyun

Well, in this video, Cole points toward Princeton Jewish professor and refuge from Hitler's Europe, Arno Meyer. In his book Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?, Meyer points out that "Sources for the study of the gas chamber are at once rare and unreliable."

In much early Holocaust literature of the '50s and '60's, including Elie Weasel's classic Night, the original French version used the word "crematorie," but when this was translated into English and German, the translation result was not "crematory" but rather "gas chamber." There is no doubt that a very high number of dead bodies were at the camps and were burned. But were these bodies of victims who had just been emptied out of a homicidal gas chamber? Or were they bodies of people who had been starved, diseased, or shot?

One must realize that most of the areas of these crimes against humanity were in areas which fell under Soviet control after the war. Now, we all know that the Soviets were famous for propaganda. What is ironic about Holocaust history is that while all the mainstream historians seem to give a public front of unanimity, in reality they contest the exact details amongst themselves all the time! There was much so-called evidence that the Soviets presented to the tribunal at Nuremberg which has been since discredited, even though some of them are still taught as fact in history courses.

Discredited Charges at Nuremberg:

"Steam Chambers" at Treblinka

"Electro-Chambers"

Shrunken Heads

Human Skin Lampshades

20,000 Jews assembled in makeshift village, blown up with atomic bomb

Human Soap from Jews

Regarding that last one, iconic Holocaust historian Deborah Lipstadt (i.e. not a notorious "denier" like David Irving, for example) says: "The Nazis never used the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone else, for the production of soap. The soap rumor was prevalent both during and after the war. It may have had its origin in the cadaver factory atrocity story that came out of World War I. The soap rumor was thoroughly investigated during the war and proved to be untrue."

Yet when I was being educated in high school on the Holocaust, I was taught, as unquestionable fact, that the Nazi Holocaust made other historical acts of cruelty pale in comparison, because the Nazis were so demented that they made lampshades and soap from human bodies.

So in light of the above example, Terry and others, my only motive is that I am a truth seeker. Ever since waking up to the evils of cannabis prohibition, then experiencing my political journey taking me through stolen election 2000, ditto 2004, then the Downing Street Memo which proved Iraq to be based on a lie, then 9/11 truth... I have vowed to look at every person, era, historical event etc. with a freshly critical eye and question what I've been always taught in school by the establishment.

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LetsPlayYourWay

Hey Terry in case you missed it, http://www.yahooka.com/forum/politic...moir-hoax.html

And that is only like the most out there book,written by a batshit insane author, who is only among dozens to come out and say that their book is based on bullshit that never occurred to them personally. Some of the other books were written as what you would call "Educational" material. Why would people do this? $$$ or a thousand other reasons.

Look at how many people faked being affected by 9/11 so they could scam the survivors funds? Do you seriously think this didn't occur after what were by all accounts a series of events a bazillion times worse in both destruction and death? The swiss would be bankrupt or a part of Germany or France if even half of the claims against them could be proven in a court of law. Hell yes millions of jews died, but to say there wasn't made up historical accounts would be ignoring reality. And i am not talking about just Jews, but countless other ethnicities that made up those making false accounts in Swiss courts. Hell half of the historical facts about IBM couldn't be proven in the beginning of the lawsuit against it for helping the Nazis, so the Swiss courts threw it out.

Anyone who says the Holocaust didn't happen or that the Jews weren't the prime target of the NAZIS deserves a swift kick in the balls, but so do those who deny the exploitation of historical facts.

kameelyun

Upon revising the holocaust and comparing it to other mass murders, in fact we absolutely must be on guard lest the correction of the historical record lead us to forget that indeed Nazi Germany was no better than any other imperialist European power--that is the mistake that neo-Nazis make. This is unfortunate in many ways of course, but not least because it is essential to understand the true nature of the evils of Nazism in order to see the relevant similarities to Zionism that help us to understand exactly why the Zionist political movement cannot be allowed to use the legitimate issue of genuine Jewish suffering during WW2 as a shield. The more they do, the more they emulate and in some ways even transcend Nazism.

The events of WW2 have to be seen in context to make sense, and that context is never really taught appropriately in mainstream circles. The context includes the nature of "world Jewry" in the decades preceding the rise of the Nazis. One of the most important things to understand is that the world's Jews were not just geographically diverse, but also very markedly socio-economically stratified. What does this mean? It means in essence that despite the Zionists' dreams (and however well-meaning they may have been) Jews were not in any real way "one people". There were Jews of varying races and ethnicities. There were urban Jews and rural Jews. There were Jews living in countries where emancipation had been thorough and successful and there were Jews living in countries where they had not been emancipated and suffered under special laws and local prejudices.

At the very pinnacle were of course a small but siginificant number of extremely successful Jews. Not simply professionals who had done well under emancipation, but individuals who through their involvement in banking had accumulated great wealth and had naturally become influential on a global political scale. Like any elites, they were not as a rule particularly ethical, nor had they prior to the rise of political Zionism in the late 19th century seemed particularly concerned about the welfare of their less fortunate correligionists.

Where things begin to get murky are during WWI and soon after with the Bolshevik overthrow of the Tsar in Russia. The troubling nature of the debate seems to stem from the fact that the proletarian revolution included a number of prominent Russian Jews, most notably Leon Trotsky. In this light the seemingly odd connection between modern neoconservatives and Trotskyism begins to make more sense. As do the links between anti-communism (read fascism) and anti-semitism. At the same time, mainstream historians have traditionally downplayed the influence of the economic elite over President Wilson. Included among these are of course the American Rockefellers but also the European/American Warburg and European Rothschild banking families. Not only were these elites involved in the creation of the federal reserve system that served to undermine American democracy and political sovereignty, but they were also instrumental in bringing America into WWI on the side of Britain against Germany and their Turkish allies (who at the time held Palestine.)

What should becoming clear, and here I have to stop to pick the thread up later, is that we are not talking about a Jewish conspiracy by any means. We are in fact talking about a conspiracy of elite wealth and control versus popular democracy and freedom. On the one hand are the elites who have the means to influence developments on a globally coordinated scale. On the other are the masses of people who are used as pawns in the scheme. That the world's Jews were chosen to play a major role in these events is evident. What is also evident is that they were not consulted before decisions were made that would result in a change from gradual emancipation to massive upheaval. They were instead used as were so many others to bring into being the "new world order" that we hear so much about but that often gets misunderstood--the forest of the whole being lost amid the various distractions of the myriad intrigues clouding the more simple truths.

Obviously deception and the weaving of false narratives has played a role in these developments, and we will discuss that in due order...

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"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

kameelyun

Ah, but how many is the real question. It is part of mainstream historical record that for several decades, the commemoration plaque at Auschwitz declared that four million had perished there. In 1989 when Poland gained its independence from the Soviets, that number was revised down to 1.1 million. Yet the six million figure has remained constant throughout the entire time. Not only that, but it has remained sacrosanct; questioning it is taboo. Yet one can only support the six million figure at this stage if one supports a curious arithmetic whereby 6-3=6.

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Canuck Wisdom

Awesome.

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Canuck Wisdom

You know man, I don't know what to think really, but there are some good posts and references int his thread, AND I am open to an understanding of history that involves the influence of hidden elites and questions modern ruling mythology.

Edit: I don't mean the holocaust or anything is myth, I mean there are myths propogated in any society about what is good, what sort of outcomes are positive, spins on history, its use, value perspective etc etc

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