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Old 10-07-2008, 05:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Thumbs down Money

And it rules our world. Do you know how it works, or why?


After reading a couple of The Rev's posts in another thread, I thought it would be good to make a thread here that is straight up, entirely about the monetary system.

If you havnt seen these videos, take the time to watch them. They are long, I will not lie, and between the all of them, repetative, but the concepts discussed may need to be examined more than once to fully understand anyways.

Thanks for those who watch, or participate by bumping, or sharing the videos with their friends.

The first one is much shorter and to the point. But if you want the whole image, I recommend starting with the second flick then going back and watching the money as debt video.




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Old 10-08-2008, 05:24 PM   #2 (permalink)
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It's not that money, in and of itself, is the problem. It's how it's created. In modern banks, there is a system known as fractional reserve. This means that a bank must keep a fraction of it's money in reserve, in case people want to withdraw it. I always thought this meant that, in a 9 to 1 system like we have, that if a bank had $1Million in deposits, it could loan out $900K, and had to keep $100K in the bank for people to write checks on and such. However, the ugly truth is, the bank keeps the $1Million, and loans out $9Million of money that doesn't exist. They just pull it out of their ass, loan it out, then charge interest on it. This is how money is created in our society.

Have you ever noticed that everyone who actually produces goods and services is in debt to the bank, which just holds our money and does little else? Not just individuals, but corporations and governments are all in debt to banks. Just walk down your street; every house represents a six figure debt, owed to a bank. Your company that you work for owes, the government owes, everyone. And the fucked up thing is, it's just money that the bank pulled out of it's ass: something from nothing.

And it's 100% legal and backed by government.

We are all slaves to bankers. Most of our taxes go to interest on government debt, and most of our post-tax income goes to paying a mortgage, car payment, credit cards and other debts. Most of our bills go towards the debts of the companies we pay.

Rich people aren't the problem. They create something. It's the money masters, the bankers, that are the problem. Because, you see, all money is created by loaning out principle. That means that all the money in existence equals all the loan amounts in existence. So, where does the money for the interest come from? That's right, it doesn't exist. We pay interest with new principle created, in an ever accelerating cycle until the whole thing goes bust.



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Old 10-08-2008, 06:49 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks for the replies guys!

Kosh you should really watch at least the shorter video. For me personally it really puts all of the wisdom your spouting into context, like a legend.
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Old 10-09-2008, 07:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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good thread...i 'll watch the videos later
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Old 10-13-2008, 10:24 AM   #5 (permalink)
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i'll have to give money masters the time of day again some time, i haven't seen it since i downloaded it off morpheus back in high school. that first video though i caught when the rev posted it someplace else, not sure where exactly. it was the same day i watched zeitgeist addendum, and i really feel like the ideas raised in those two films have provided the clarity for me to package and explain another aspect of our world's troubles under a cohesive "theory" i've been tossing around in my head for perhaps a year or more.

the main idea is that the ruling paradigm through which we have approached our behavior is one of competition. first biologically and later socially. it's a good system; it produced us after all, didn't it? but there are circumstances where the paradigm is less than favorable. for example, how would you be any better off by outdoing your competitors so well that they end up homeless when they have nowhere to go but your own doorstep? ironically, the fulfillment of this paradigm eventually creates circumstances where continuing such behavior is counter-productive. there is a limit to its utility because there is a limit to competition, beyond which the pursuit of it literally becomes self-defeating.

now, our money system is one which allows for expansion of industry at an unprecedented rate, but that crucial selling point also serves as its achilles' heel. this growth is supported by nothing but the promise to repay, which is to say that the current phase of growth is dependent upon the success of later growth just as previous growth was dependent upon the success of current growth. this system of putting off the expenses of current expansion to the profits of future expansion is set up a lot like an endless baton race, but "the money masters" failed to recognize that it's being run on a finite track. as industry expands at an increasing rate, ever requiring that expansion to occur within smaller and smaller time frames, the opportunity for expansion must reciprocate and decrease. when time and opportunity are short, the system begins to collapse under its own weight like a ship that took on too much cargo.

the simple fact is that while industry has expanded at an unbelievable rate, it is still insufficient to meet the demands of our monetary debt system. it takes time to create and "plan" opportunity (as mentioned in zeitgeist addendum by the "economic hitman"), but the time constraints are becoming too narrow for it these plans to appear "natural." look at the desperate scuffle to invade iraq versus the rather painless overthrow of south and central american socialized industry. that industry was surreptitiously privatized to expand global markets, but such tactics continuously failed in iraq and the decision was made to (rather poorly) dress up the situation as one of national security and invade. i predict this to be the final of such attempts. iraq will come to exemplify a dead paradigm.

iraq was a failure and so is our monetary system. who knows exactly how long it will take for them to realize it, but they've already lost. despite them being what got us here, the world we find ourselves in no longer accommodates the old ways. we're sure to see more scrambling to patch the holes, even beyond the bailout. but the nail's in the coffin and has been for some time.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:56 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Great post Verk.

I agree with much of what you've said.

A couple things I would like to explore though. First, I would be careful suggesting that wars such as the Iraq war are over and done with. Realism is still probably the most powerful paradigm among governments, especially militarily, around the world, and that would suggest that as long as we live in an 'anarchial' world system (i.e. no intl gov, or world/UN police) there will be powerful nation-states willing to take what they want if there is no counter balance to stop them (ala cold war balance).

Or, another prominent perspective would be the neo-liberal approach, which would suggets that world peace and stability can be achieved by opening the world's markets up to free trade. This too is a powerful ideology among the worlds leaders (or heads of finance) and coincides well with market incentives. But even under this ideal of world-trade and world-exchange (ideas, culture, travel, goods), that we, to a degree, live under today, can lead to if not wars like Iraq, still manipulation of economies by the dominant forces in capital (nations, firms, world bodies {IMF, WTO]) and the rape of their resources.

Its when they say no, and can successfully stand up to that, that the military gets involved and it looks like a more 'realist' behaviour. (North Korea, Venezuala, Iraq, Iran, all stand [or stood] outside of this new liberal world order)
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the main idea is that the ruling paradigm through which we have approached our behavior is one of competition. first biologically and later socially. it's a good system; it produced us after all, didn't it? but there are circumstances where the paradigm is less than favorable. for example, how would you be any better off by outdoing your competitors so well that they end up homeless when they have nowhere to go but your own doorstep? ironically, the fulfillment of this paradigm eventually creates circumstances where continuing such behavior is counter-productive. there is a limit to its utility because there is a limit to competition, beyond which the pursuit of it literally becomes self-defeating.
Yep. Capitalism and the competitive drive it creates, the need for new markets and market expansion (as seen in colonialism and post-war neo-colonialism, such as in South Amrca) and the polarizing of wealth and social position into (in a general view) two different camps of people, all of which are the necessary conditions created by the contradictions of capitalism have opened up the world, brought us together and shown us in clearer and clearer detail how interconnected we all really are.
And your right. This system has its time and place, and served a necessary, arguably invaluable function in history, but we are arriving (imo) at a time when this form of accumulation will no longer do.
As it has gotten us this far, it has come to show us that as one, more and more dependant on each other, more and more connected as ONE society, one social body, with one division of labour (global) and one world market, capitalism must necessarily drive us to a shared form of accumulation, where we are in tune with the natural world as our home, and our neighbours as our allies.

Otherwise we are just robbing from ourselves.

Part of this process involves replacing, or enhancing, the competitive incentive, and finding a way to stand on our own two feet without cheap energy (i.e. green tech), or we will collapse back into a system that cannot maintain todays population or lifestyles (cities, electronics, plumbing).

One of the roadblocks on this path, that we all hear alot about here on the hooka, is the cheap energy industry and its handful of masters. Energy is the lifeblood of a society and so long as they hold exclusive rights they will do everything they can to maintain finite energies position as top dog.

Free, renewable energy is a real threat to authority because it offers real freedom, real emancipation from dependency. In order to maintain the lifestyles this generation is used to we need energy, and like drug dealers, having a monopoly on oil and other depletable resources gives you the power to choose the direction of society.
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Old 10-14-2008, 10:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Great post Verk.

I agree with much of what you've said.

A couple things I would like to explore though. First, I would be careful suggesting that wars such as the Iraq war are over and done with. Realism is still probably the most powerful paradigm among governments, especially militarily, around the world, and that would suggest that as long as we live in an 'anarchial' world system (i.e. no intl gov, or world/UN police) there will be powerful nation-states willing to take what they want if there is no counter balance to stop them (ala cold war balance).
that's just the thing though, imo. the very world itself -- our industry, environment, and circumstance -- serves to counter-balance any desire for large scale power, money or resource grabs by its very nature; and it is a nature which we established by the fulfillment of a competitive paradigm. our "international government" is our own behavior and the circumstances under which we engage our behaviors, dictating for us what does and does not work in the shrinking, intricately woven world we've made out for ourselves. war, for one, does not work. it is an antiquated concept among a global consortium of nations which depend each upon the other for trade. it's a delicate structure which is all too easily thrown into tumult by an economic domino effect should any portion of it topple over by force or even chance.

our money system and those who mastermind it depend on placing the pieces in line with their plan, but the pieces have all taken a life of their own among the other pieces. this is the difficulty they face. they've always known that acting too brashly could undermine their efforts, but the slow, methodical moves which served them in the past are utterly ineffectual in the dynamic system of commerce and industry those very moves helped set up. the jig is up imo. they police themselves in this new world.

that's not to say there certainly won't be more conflict from large governments, i just don't think it's very likely. if it were, they would be moving much more quickly to do what they can before becoming even MORE entrenched by their own devices. the threats of war we've been hearing about for years would have for a long time now been more than threats, yet threats and threats only they remain. no, i don't foresee any wars for profit or power coming to fruition. it's an old concept that simply doesn't work anymore.

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Or, another prominent perspective would be the neo-liberal approach, which would suggets that world peace and stability can be achieved by opening the world's markets up to free trade. This too is a powerful ideology among the worlds leaders (or heads of finance) and coincides well with market incentives. But even under this ideal of world-trade and world-exchange (ideas, culture, travel, goods), that we, to a degree, live under today, can lead to if not wars like Iraq, still manipulation of economies by the dominant forces in capital (nations, firms, world bodies {IMF, WTO]) and the rape of their resources.
such manipulation is counter-productive nowadays. look at the global markets! they've been manipulated to all hell and their total collapse is only being staved off by more manipulation: a behavior which exhibits a strong trend of becoming increasingly ineffectual. the system of money manipulation through debt and any ventures which use it as a springboard (such as government/military manipulation) are in their dying throes. it's a stale-mate. any move at all within the game they are playing only spells more trouble for them. if they are wise an clever enough to get this far they will adapt their behavior to suit this new circumstance. if they fight it they're only fighting themselves.

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Its when they say no, and can successfully stand up to that, that the military gets involved and it looks like a more 'realist' behaviour. (North Korea, Venezuala, Iraq, Iran, all stand [or stood] outside of this new liberal world order)
of those you mentioned, only one has been engaged militarily despite no lack of fear being perpetuated in regard to any of them. why? time's running out for them to be dealt with like we dealt with iraq. could they be anxious? everything used to come so easily to them! bribe, assassinate, invade. . . easy as pie! what gives all of a sudden?! it would make me apprehensive, too.

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Yep. Capitalism and the competitive drive it creates, the need for new markets and market expansion (as seen in colonialism and post-war neo-colonialism, such as in South Amrca) and the polarizing of wealth and social position into (in a general view) two different camps of people, all of which are the necessary conditions created by the contradictions of capitalism have opened up the world, brought us together and shown us in clearer and clearer detail how interconnected we all really are.
And your right. This system has its time and place, and served a necessary, arguably invaluable function in history, but we are arriving (imo) at a time when this form of accumulation will no longer do.
As it has gotten us this far, it has come to show us that as one, more and more dependant on each other, more and more connected as ONE society, one social body, with one division of labour (global) and one world market, capitalism must necessarily drive us to a shared form of accumulation, where we are in tune with the natural world as our home, and our neighbours as our allies.

Otherwise we are just robbing from ourselves.
right on man, nice elucidation. can you see how, imo, the environment our competition has created produces the impetus for cooperation? i don't see cooperation as an ideal or a hope, i see it as the natural behavioral progression from the limits of competition. elsewhere i used the example of a person with a bad work ethic which keeps him from holding down a job. eventually he will face a choice: change his behavior and adopt a proper work ethic, or maintain his behavior and end up in the street. in this way, the culmination of his own behavior entreats him to change that behavior. and likewise, the culmination of our competitive behavior entreats us to adopt a cooperative behavior.

there's no pie in the sky, we're baking the pie right now.

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Part of this process involves replacing, or enhancing, the competitive incentive, and finding a way to stand on our own two feet without cheap energy (i.e. green tech), or we will collapse back into a system that cannot maintain todays population or lifestyles (cities, electronics, plumbing).

One of the roadblocks on this path, that we all hear alot about here on the hooka, is the cheap energy industry and its handful of masters. Energy is the lifeblood of a society and so long as they hold exclusive rights they will do everything they can to maintain finite energies position as top dog.

Free, renewable energy is a real threat to authority because it offers real freedom, real emancipation from dependency. In order to maintain the lifestyles this generation is used to we need energy, and like drug dealers, having a monopoly on oil and other depletable resources gives you the power to choose the direction of society.
yes, indeed. but the direction those in control chose is stemming the advancement of their goals. they're a threat to themselves without free energy, and eventually their own frankenstein's monster will necessitate free energy in pursuit of real, sustainable expansion of industry to allow for widespread prosperity and growth. they can either develop the free energy industry themselves and thereby at least have a stake in its infrastructure or lose out completely when someone else is driven to take the initiative.

they are not stupid. they know how to amass wealth and how to use it. how ironic would it be if they turned toward a more socially progressive means of doing so? free energy, nation developing, disease curing. . . i envision these as the new endeavors of that profit-hungry breed. since we've fully expanded to fill the globe with our quantitative progress, the only real means of sustainable profit is qualitative progress. they're good at the game so i don't see them quitting it any time soon.
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Old 10-14-2008, 10:46 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I agree with you on most points Verk, but I still feel that we will see wars for profit/resources(water) in the coming 2-4 decades.

I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Although, I doubt we'll see wars like WW1/2, it would be more like small nations with border violent challenges, and large nations taking control of small (such as iraq).
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Old 10-14-2008, 01:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 10-14-2008, 07:42 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Coast to Coast AM - 12 October 2008 - Interview with Howard Bloom - The History of Economic Crises - Part 1
Coast to Coast AM - 12 October 2008 - Interview with Howard Bloom - The History of Economic Crises - Part 2
Coast to Coast AM - 12 October 2008 - Interview with Howard Bloom - The History of Economic Crises - Part 3
Coast to Coast AM - 12 October 2008 - Interview with Howard Bloom - The History of Economic Crises - Part 4



Summary of the Interview:

Author Howard Bloom talked about the cycles of economic collapse since the 1600s and how the present financial crisis may be solved. Regarding these recurring financial meltdowns that hit society, Bloom said "Every time it happens, the world is absolutely convinced that it has never seen anything like it before. And every single time, the world is wrong." He detailed such events as the "Tulip Boom" which crippled Holland's economy in 1637 and the "Soap and Cotton Revolution" that did the same to England's financial market in 1873.

Bloom explained how his research has revealed that these meltdowns occur approximately every seventy years and form a distinct pattern, which he called a "techno cycle." This cycle sees a new technology or energy source begin to emerge, then it skyrockets and the country behind it becomes an economic superpower. Following that, the technology becomes old and the market is satiated and, soon thereafter, the economy of the country once on top of the boom crashes. While that crash is going on, the next big technological burst is "bubbling up under the surface" and the cycle is beginning anew.

Looking at solutions to the current economic crisis, he noted "usually new technologies involve opening vast new frontiers, but frontiers are not always literal." One such emerging field was what he called the "cyber world," citing the remarkable sales of mini laptops and "smart phones." The other key area where Bloom foresees a technological boom is alternative energy, specifically "solar power harvested in space." He stressed that America, with its homegrown solar panel development and strong space presence, "have the lead right now" but warned "we're letting it lapse because of a failure of imagination." Ultimately, Bloom mused, such forward thinking is "what makes new frontiers out of old emptinesses."
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