Obama backs down; Continues military tribunals for Gitmo detainees. - Page 2

verklingen · 05-18-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maturin

I'm ultimately pleased with this, though not for the reasons you might originally think of. I don't think Obama "flip-flopped" on this; that would suggest he did it for politically easy reasons, and I think the opposite is true in this case. He changed his position despite the fact that this is a very unpopular move with a large chunk of his base.

I have many issues with Obama's domestic and fiscal policies, but in foreign policy he's showing himself to be a moderate, and willing to base his decisions on what he now knows as president instead of what he said on the campaign trail. And the closing of Gitmo and ending the tribunals was a BIG plank of his. The fact that he's doing a 180 on this shows a man whose willing to change his position if he thinks it's best for the safety of Americans. That shows a mark of politically maturity; remembering a chief criticism of W was that he never changed his views no matter what.

Now I'm still uncertain as to why a courts martial isn't as good as a tribunal, or if Obama is still set on his original plan to close Gitmo. As someone else said in this thread, the terrorists do have to be held *somewhere*, though why not Allentown or St. Louis or Area 51?

you being pleased with this is the reason it's happened. yeah it sucks but there are those pressuring the president with their fear; people older than him, more experienced than him who have caused him to proceed more cautiously with his intent.

once these fears prove (or continue to be proven, imo) absolutely unwarranted, expect a turnaround.

SmokeSomeDoja · 05-18-2009, 08:31 AM

'gitmo' needs to be secretive piece of shit because if it were open to public eyes there would be absolutely no reason to continue operating guantanamo bay.

they ship 'prisoners of war,' random poor people in a bombed and destroyed land, to an american prison where they are tortured.

they are no more 'terrorists' than they are pissed off at being taken away from their loved ones to be tortured half way across the world. it doesnt stop or retard 'terrorism,' it is a terrorist factory, producing hundreds of people that after being tortured and treated inhumanely, would love nothing more than to get revenge.

dubtrice · 05-18-2009, 09:07 AM

random poor people?

Maturin · 05-18-2009, 01:44 PM

Reading a few posts makes me realize I need to clarify a few points, cause I think I confused some people with poor word choice and a careless omission.

First, I think in most cases the prisoners should be given trial via courts martial instead of tribunal. The prisoners rights don't necessarily fall under the constitution but we should do our best to keep the process as fair as possible. A military court seems best.

Secondly, when I was talking about Obama making unpopular decisions to keep Americans safe I should have also mentioned last week's decision not to release torture photos. That would have been exactly the wrong move to make at this time. And that was the move I was thinking about when I was talking about people safe.

stoneric · 05-18-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maturin

First, I think in most cases the prisoners should be given trial via courts martial instead of tribunal. The prisoners rights don't necessarily fall under the constitution but we should do our best to keep the process as fair as possible. A military court seems best.

Why not always? Every human being should be presumed innocent. Tribunals aren't close to being fair even with obama expanding prisoners "rights".

Maturin · 05-18-2009, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneric

Why not always?

The exceptions (and this really is just personal emotion, so take it for what you will) is for very senior leadership. ie, should the US actually capture and imprison Bin Laden, his trial should consist of him being wacked in the face with a Louisville Slugger a few times and then locked away. On the other hand, the evidence against Bib Laden would be so massive there wouldn't be a court that wouldn't convict.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

This country is so hypocritical, if these "terrorists" had all worn uniforms, would they be given a fair and impartial trial then?

McVeigh didn't wear a uniform, nor did the Unabomber, they were working against this country and they killed innocents, yet because they were born here that automatically gives them the right to a jury? Please.

Well, yes, that is how the laws are set up. But again, that's why I think court martial is fair for most of these combatants. No way should they be given a civilian trial, but a military one is fair.

Maturin · 05-18-2009, 06:21 PM

But here's a thought: Who's gonna be the first the suggest that Obama be impeached and tried for war crimes?

Oh, I guess that's me then.

Mclennison · 05-18-2009, 11:46 PM

well who wants to start some activism in the world!?!

Mclennison · 05-18-2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneric

Maybe obama is being pragmatic, that word that pops up after all of our illegal or immoral activities.

what is truly wise and of virtue is most "pragmatic", relearn your idealism please

a belief in pure freewill is wise, so entails liberty and its lovely countenance

Mclennison · 05-18-2009, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verklingen

you being pleased with this is the reason it's happened. yeah it sucks but there are those pressuring the president with their fear; people older than him, more experienced than him who have caused him to proceed more cautiously with his intent.

once these fears prove (or continue to be proven, imo) absolutely unwarranted, expect a turnaround.

yes lets do expect a wonderful turnaround!

maybe with our belief it will happen!

stoneric · 05-19-2009, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maturin

But here's a thought: Who's gonna be the first the suggest that Obama be impeached and tried for war crimes?

Oh, I guess that's me then.

Who's gonna be the first to suggest that impeachment isn't practical and is only partisan pettiness?

05-18-2009, 08:31 AM	#22 (permalink)
SmokeSomeDoja Lushous Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Erogenous Zones Posts: 17,386 Thanks: 240 Thanked 446 Times in 280 Posts	'gitmo' needs to be secretive piece of shit because if it were open to public eyes there would be absolutely no reason to continue operating guantanamo bay. they ship 'prisoners of war,' random poor people in a bombed and destroyed land, to an american prison where they are tortured. they are no more 'terrorists' than they are pissed off at being taken away from their loved ones to be tortured half way across the world. it doesnt stop or retard 'terrorism,' it is a terrorist factory, producing hundreds of people that after being tortured and treated inhumanely, would love nothing more than to get revenge. __________________ fotoz fo yo azz "I've run over black cats that were luckier than me." Last edited by SmokeSomeDoja; 05-18-2009 at 08:41 AM.

05-18-2009, 01:44 PM	#24 (permalink)
Maturin Hmm? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Das Kapital Posts: 1,849 Thanks: 93 Thanked 88 Times in 65 Posts	Reading a few posts makes me realize I need to clarify a few points, cause I think I confused some people with poor word choice and a careless omission. First, I think in most cases the prisoners should be given trial via courts martial instead of tribunal. The prisoners rights don't necessarily fall under the constitution but we should do our best to keep the process as fair as possible. A military court seems best. Secondly, when I was talking about Obama making unpopular decisions to keep Americans safe I should have also mentioned last week's decision not to release torture photos. That would have been exactly the wrong move to make at this time. And that was the move I was thinking about when I was talking about people safe. __________________ "Creating something is not a democracy. The people have no say. The artist does. It doesn't matter what the people witter on about: they and their response comes after. They're not there for the moment of creation." --Russell T Davies Last edited by Maturin; 05-18-2009 at 02:29 PM.

05-18-2009, 06:21 PM	#27 (permalink)
Maturin Hmm? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Das Kapital Posts: 1,849 Thanks: 93 Thanked 88 Times in 65 Posts	But here's a thought: Who's gonna be the first the suggest that Obama be impeached and tried for war crimes? Oh, I guess that's me then. __________________ "Creating something is not a democracy. The people have no say. The artist does. It doesn't matter what the people witter on about: they and their response comes after. They're not there for the moment of creation." --Russell T Davies

05-18-2009, 11:46 PM	#28 (permalink)
Mclennison i love twi'lek girls Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Rhone Alps France Posts: 500 Thanks: 30 Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts	well who wants to start some activism in the world!?! __________________ "we've got to get ourselves back to the garden!" ~from the song "woodstock"

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05-18-2009, 09:07 AM	#23 (permalink)
dubtrice Old School Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 408 Thanks: 87 Thanked 55 Times in 41 Posts	random poor people?

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