Obama backs down; Continues military tribunals for Gitmo detainees.

Maturin · 05-15-2009, 04:51 PM

Change we can believe in.

From the WaPo

Quote:

Military Tribunals Will Resume, Obama Says

President Obama said today he will revive military commissions but with greater legal safeguards for defendants to try some terrorist suspects held at the military base in Cuba.

The decision, which follows an intense internal debate, represents something of a reversal by the president who said during the campaign that military courts martial or the federal courts offered a better route to successful prosecution because he said military commissions had been an "enormous failure."

In recent weeks, however, the administration appears to have bowed to fears articulated by the Pentagon that bringing some detainees before regular courts presented enormous legal hurdles and could risk acquittals.

"Military commissions have a long tradition in the United States," said Obama in a statement. "They are appropriate for trying enemies who violate the laws of war, provided that they are properly structured and administered."

The administration will seek a second continuance of proceedings at Guantanamo Bay to finalize reforms to the military commissions system, including a ban on the use of evidence obtained from coercive interrogations, limits on the use of hearsay, more latitude for detainees in selecting attorney, and protections for defendants who refuse to testify, Obama said.

Despite these changes, the decision will dismay civil liberties and human rights groups who had assumed that the administration had abandoned commissions when it sought a first suspension of proceedings immediately after Obama came into office.

"It is troubling that President Obama has apparently chosen to revive the flawed military commissions he rightly denounced during his campaign," said Virginia Sloan, president of the Constitution Project, a Washington think-tank.. "Military commissions are designed to provide lesser due process protections for terrorism suspects than our federal courts do. Throughout our nation's history, those courts have proven their ability to handle the most difficult and sensitive cases. President Obama should have demonstrated a return to the rule of law by ending the tainted military commission proceedings."
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Obama noted that he has supported draft legislation on military commission in 2006 but rejected the final version supported by the Bush administration because "it failed to establish a legitimate legal framework and undermined our capability to ensure swift and certain justice against those detainees that we were holding at the time."

cont.

stoneric · 05-15-2009, 06:28 PM

Yes, this pisses me off also. Moreso because of the continuance of the tribunals than obama flip flopping. How about you?

Mclennison · 05-15-2009, 10:24 PM

sing love songs and give lots of peace signs to people as you walk by and that ole shtick

it'll work

swear

promise!!!

dubtrice · 05-15-2009, 10:39 PM

Guantanamo should stay and he knows it. Obama just took advantage of a million easy votes... people are so gullible.

Xil · 05-15-2009, 11:02 PM

obama can shove it up his ass

al-Mu'akhkhir · 05-16-2009, 11:10 PM

surprise surprise america!

stoneric · 05-17-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubtrice

Guantanamo should stay and he knows it. Obama just took advantage of a million easy votes... people are so gullible.

Speaking of gullible, anyone thinking gitmo should remain open would have to be the gulliblest of the gullible.

Roach · 05-17-2009, 10:50 AM

It's not foolish to be paranoid , sometimes.

There are some people in this big world who really would kill you if they had the chance.

Sucks, but it's part of this world we created which is based on; Ego, Hunger ,and Aggression.

The types of changes you all are seeking probably will not happen in Earth's lifetime...let alone yours.

stoneric · 05-17-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiSaNtHrOpE

It's not foolish to be paranoid , sometimes.

There are some people in this big world who really would kill you if they had the chance.

Sucks, but it's part of this world we created which is based on; Ego, Hunger ,and Aggression.

The types of changes you all are seeking probably will not happen in Earth's lifetime...let alone yours.

No doubt. Still doesn't make gitmo, or any place like it, necessary.

Roach · 05-17-2009, 11:32 AM

where would you hold terrorists or national security threats until trial...allenwood ,pa ?

or Your home town .

Should they just be executed as war criminals first, then go to trial....probably not in a supposedly christian society.

yea, I agree shuting down the prison is the simple solution to a very complicated problem.

as former soldier, I'm strongly in favor of the old "take no prisoners" philosophy of the art of war..If it weren't for indecision on the battlefield you wouldn't have prisoners from any war, and no resulting aftermath of the same.

Goes something like this.......

COLOMBO, Sri Lanka - The Tamil Tiger rebels admitted defeat in their 25-year-old war with the Sri Lankan government Sunday, offering to lay down their guns as government forces swept across their last strongholds in the northeast.

The government rejected the last-ditch call for a cease-fire, saying the thousands of civilians trapped in the war zone all have escaped to safety and there was no longer any reason to stop the battle.

And don't just laugh it off.
Those orders have been given often.

stoneric · 05-17-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiSaNtHrOpE

where would you hold terrorists or national security threats until trial...allenwood ,pa ?

or Your home town .

Should they just be executed as war criminals first, then go to trial....probably not in a supposedly christian society.

yea, I agree shuting down the prison is the simple solution to a very complicated problem.

as former soldier, I'm strongly in favor of the old "take no prisoners" philosophy of the art of war..If it weren't for indecision on the battlefield you wouldn't have prisoners from any war, and no resulting aftermath of the same.

What's the difference where you hold them? They're prisoners, not nuclear waste.

And fuck your kill "em all attitude

The Rev · 05-17-2009, 03:48 PM

As disappointing as this is, I don't think anyone here is regretting not voting for McCain.

As for terrorists, they are a bogeyman, nothing more. How many people die each year because of terrorists? If there was consistency in our views toward protecting americans, imagine the effort we'd be putting into battling cancer right now.

The Rev

dubtrice · 05-17-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneric

What's the difference where you hold them? They're prisoners, not nuclear waste.

And fuck your kill "em all attitude

they're prisoners would could give two shits for whether or not you care about their well-being; to them, if you are American, you should die...

its not like we saw their heads off with machetes or anything............ .

stoneric · 05-17-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubtrice

they're prisoners would could give two shits for whether or not you care about their well-being; to them, if you are American, you should die...

its not like we saw their heads off with machetes or anything............ .

Christ, you've swallowed cheney's kool aid.

dubtrice · 05-17-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneric

Christ, you've swallowed cheney's kool aid.

??

Maturin · 05-17-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoneric

Yes, this pisses me off also. Moreso because of the continuance of the tribunals than obama flip flopping. How about you?

I'm ultimately pleased with this, though not for the reasons you might originally think of. I don't think Obama "flip-flopped" on this; that would suggest he did it for politically easy reasons, and I think the opposite is true in this case. He changed his position despite the fact that this is a very unpopular move with a large chunk of his base.

I have many issues with Obama's domestic and fiscal policies, but in foreign policy he's showing himself to be a moderate, and willing to base his decisions on what he now knows as president instead of what he said on the campaign trail. And the closing of Gitmo and ending the tribunals was a BIG plank of his. The fact that he's doing a 180 on this shows a man whose willing to change his position if he thinks it's best for the safety of Americans. That shows a mark of politically maturity; remembering a chief criticism of W was that he never changed his views no matter what.

Now I'm still uncertain as to why a courts martial isn't as good as a tribunal, or if Obama is still set on his original plan to close Gitmo. As someone else said in this thread, the terrorists do have to be held *somewhere*, though why not Allentown or St. Louis or Area 51?

stoneric · 05-17-2009, 08:03 PM

Tribunals don't make americans safe.

Sugar420 · 05-17-2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maturin

The fact that he's doing a 180 on this shows a man whose willing to change his position if he thinks it's best for the safety of Americans. That shows a mark of politically maturity; remembering a chief criticism of W was that he never changed his views no matter what.

no, this shows that all his campaign promises were empty talk as i said before the election, and what you call "political maturity" is really a sign of the corruption than comes from playing the game of bourgeois electoral politics.

as for W, he also broke campaign promises

Psilocychosis · 05-17-2009, 11:35 PM

This is bullshit. Shutting down gitmo would have been a great first step to undue all the injustices our country has committed. I thought obama was going to bring about positive change instead of buckling under pressure. Or is he just another political machine fueled by false promises.

Give them a fair trial, I'm pretty sure thats what the constitution was built on.

stoneric · 05-18-2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maturin

Now I'm still uncertain as to why a courts martial isn't as good as a tribunal, or if Obama is still set on his original plan to close Gitmo. As someone else said in this thread, the terrorists do have to be held *somewhere*, though why not Allentown or St. Louis or Area 51?

In a court martial you have a semblence of rights. Also if your innocent you go free, whereas in a military tribunal that's not necessarily the case.

Maybe obama is being pragmatic, that word that pops up after all of our illegal or immoral activities.

05-15-2009, 10:24 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mclennison i love twi'lek girls Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Rhone Alps France Posts: 500 Thanks: 30 Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts	sing love songs and give lots of peace signs to people as you walk by and that ole shtick it'll work swear promise!!! __________________ "we've got to get ourselves back to the garden!" ~from the song "woodstock"

05-15-2009, 11:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
Xil OD'ing on sobriety Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mizzura Posts: 3,334 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 1,158 Times in 717 Posts	obama can shove it up his ass __________________ "we'll show these fascists what a couple of hillbillies can do"

05-16-2009, 11:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
al-Mu'akhkhir Vem Para Ficar Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: in some pussy Posts: 3,203 Thanks: 500 Thanked 351 Times in 270 Posts	surprise surprise america! __________________

05-17-2009, 10:50 AM	#8 (permalink)
Roach Victoria Aut Mors Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7,182 Thanks: 2,372 Thanked 1,984 Times in 1,507 Posts	It's not foolish to be paranoid , sometimes. There are some people in this big world who really would kill you if they had the chance. Sucks, but it's part of this world we created which is based on; Ego, Hunger ,and Aggression. The types of changes you all are seeking probably will not happen in Earth's lifetime...let alone yours. __________________ לזיין את הקופים

05-17-2009, 11:32 AM	#10 (permalink)
Roach Victoria Aut Mors Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7,182 Thanks: 2,372 Thanked 1,984 Times in 1,507 Posts	where would you hold terrorists or national security threats until trial...allenwood ,pa ? or Your home town . Should they just be executed as war criminals first, then go to trial....probably not in a supposedly christian society. yea, I agree shuting down the prison is the simple solution to a very complicated problem. as former soldier, I'm strongly in favor of the old "take no prisoners" philosophy of the art of war..If it weren't for indecision on the battlefield you wouldn't have prisoners from any war, and no resulting aftermath of the same. Goes something like this....... COLOMBO, Sri Lanka - The Tamil Tiger rebels admitted defeat in their 25-year-old war with the Sri Lankan government Sunday, offering to lay down their guns as government forces swept across their last strongholds in the northeast. The government rejected the last-ditch call for a cease-fire, saying the thousands of civilians trapped in the war zone all have escaped to safety and there was no longer any reason to stop the battle. And don't just laugh it off. Those orders have been given often. __________________ לזיין את הקופים Last edited by Roach; 05-17-2009 at 12:56 PM.

05-15-2009, 06:28 PM	#2 (permalink)
stoneric bougeman Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 5,644 Thanks: 703 Thanked 1,512 Times in 1,067 Posts	Yes, this pisses me off also. Moreso because of the continuance of the tribunals than obama flip flopping. How about you?

05-15-2009, 10:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
dubtrice Old School Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: USA Posts: 408 Thanks: 87 Thanked 55 Times in 41 Posts	Guantanamo should stay and he knows it. Obama just took advantage of a million easy votes... people are so gullible.

05-17-2009, 03:48 PM	#12 (permalink)
The Rev Clear Light Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,864 Thanks: 5,015 Thanked 5,419 Times in 2,864 Posts	As disappointing as this is, I don't think anyone here is regretting not voting for McCain. As for terrorists, they are a bogeyman, nothing more. How many people die each year because of terrorists? If there was consistency in our views toward protecting americans, imagine the effort we'd be putting into battling cancer right now. The Rev __________________ Budforce - My Friend August 29, 1973- May 25, 2012

05-17-2009, 08:03 PM	#17 (permalink)
stoneric bougeman Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 5,644 Thanks: 703 Thanked 1,512 Times in 1,067 Posts	Tribunals don't make americans safe.

05-17-2009, 11:35 PM	#19 (permalink)
Psilocychosis Reelin' in the Years Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Long and Winding Road Posts: 469 Thanks: 22 Thanked 58 Times in 49 Posts	This is bullshit. Shutting down gitmo would have been a great first step to undue all the injustices our country has committed. I thought obama was going to bring about positive change instead of buckling under pressure. Or is he just another political machine fueled by false promises. Give them a fair trial, I'm pretty sure thats what the constitution was built on. __________________ Life gave me lemons, I didn't make no lemonade, threw the fuckin' lemons back and busted out the Cabernet

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