John F. Kerry

The era of Clinton has come and gone, when governing by poll was in force but Clinton at least espoused the view that America was the world leader both in new fresh ideas about how to do things as well as the power to stand up for good when necessary.

The era of Bush is over, when governing by conviction was rejected as being too bull headed and the unilateralism of American foreign policy was found not (necessarily) to be wrong, but to be (arguably) ineffective.

now we are sort of in an era which is a combination of the two- its governing by poll to a certain extent but obama seems to be more apt to hold onto strong principled convictions to me than clinton did (or at least he talks that way)....

the problem (to which there is no easy solution im just asking for peoples opinions if the have any) is that the less conviction you have you might be more popular but then something like North Korea launching a nuke the size of Fat Man and Little Boy comes along- and the best obama can do is say strongly that he deplores it and rejects it.... but since its Governing by poll- that he wont actually be willing to DO ANYTHING about it-

its better than clinton, and it has a chance to be more effective than bush (but thats dubious)....

i guess my question is how do u coerce people to do things unless your are willing to fight but at the same time not scare them into opposing you just to save themselves in the long run?

verklingen

you exemplify what's better about your way by demonstrating the success it yields. does our way give us growth, happiness, prosperity, abundance? not yet! so why should anyone feel impelled to follow our lead?

__________________

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

John F. Kerry

i agree in principle.

but explain how to apply that idea to north korea stopping its crazy nuke program? (not to mention iran).... i think north korea can see pretty clearly that america is better of that it- do you really think if we lead by example that they will one day just curl up and die or say we want to become a member of nato?

John F. Kerry

cuz that seems to me the basic idea with obamas presidency-

we'll elect this guy who looks like a person from the world not just from white america, hes even got muslim roots- and if we do this- the world will be our friend.


but while obamas election has changed the attitudes around the world it hasnt made n korea or iran any less afraid of eventual US attack....so their calculation of interests in fact doesnt seem to have changed in the slightest .... the only thing that has changed is our level of dellusion about the ability of diplomacy to achieve successes in areas where interests directly conflict.

please disagree....

verklingen

well think of it psychologically. we have engendered -- or merely continued to engender, depending upon the time-span you choose to consider -- a sense that "might makes right," that those with the best weapons technology are those best suited to make the calls on a global scale. we spent much of the last century proving this. it is therefor natural for many countries to become disconnected and resentful, and we can only expect that they would pursue the technology that has given us an upper hand.

if we don't like that and want it not to happen, we need to engender a new paradigm of inclusion that both recognizes the merits and seeks solutions for the shortcomings of governments worldwide. therefor anyone with a good idea can be influential even without a good weapon. otherwise the shit will really hit the fan as the world continues to shrink.

__________________

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

zerodown

You have to lie about everything and make them think the enemy is exactly what you are, you'll win them(the people) over.

Roach

curious question.

For those who ever bought into the concept that America ever was a first rate power....It wasn't.

sans the illusion.

__________________

לזיין את הקופים

ProfessorMurder

FOXNews.com - Israel Accuses North Korea of Black Market Weapons Trade in Middle East - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

Israel: North Korea supplying weapons to six Mideast states - Haaretz - Israel News

WPR Article | North Korean Black Market Goods Help Break Hermit Kingdom's Information Blockade

Black-Market Weapon Prices Surge In Iraq Chaos - International Military Forums

Pyongyang's Weapons Test: North Korean Nukes to the Highest Bidder? - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Jihad Watch: UAE Firm Cited as Key to Nuke Black Market

Nuclear Black Market in Pakistan


just a few headlines.

I think the country is just a huge black market.
It's a display of the merchandise
and at the same time 'scare up' some business.

Note, N.K. isn't the only one in the nuke business.



If it gets too heavy, we could allways let Putty-Put just take over half of North Korea.

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"

ProfessorMurder

The other implications is that with all our crappy export(s) ideas or products,

could bring down other nations.

Our Geneticly Modified Crops that need constant maintanance.

Our Cars that need constant maintance.

All the nations in debt to us because of our swindling,
"you borrowed money now we're cashin' in give us all your exports."

It's like some global "extended warranty" scam.

Our products constantly break down, so we can swoop in a save the day.

This time our bullshit is catching up to us.

We're finally waking up and realizing,
We're just like everyone else.
Not above them.

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"

The Rev

The American Empire is on its way out, and I for one am happy about it. Life is alot more reasonable when you aren't the Alpha Dog. I really look forward to being just another nation among nations. Let the world hate China for a change.



The Rev

__________________

ProfessorMurder

We could pass the buck as usual.

Iran: Bin Laden Captured
Wired News - Mar 1, 2004
The Pentagon denies a Iranian report that Osama bin Laden was captured
some time ago and is being held secretly so the timing of an announcement
can bolster ... Pakistan denies US Bin Laden deal - BBC News

Report: US-Pakistan Struck Deal on Bin Laden - NPR


Spy Chief Says Bin Laden Son Left Iran, Likely Is in Pakistan
Wall Street Journal - Jan 16, 2009
By SIOBHAN GORMAN. WASHINGTON -- Osama bin Laden's third eldest son,
an al Qaeda operative, is no longer under arrest in Iran and is likely in

Pakistan, ... Bin Laden son released by Iran captors - MarketWatch - MarketWatch

US slaps sanctions on son of Osama bin Laden - guardian.co.uk

Pakistan to Demand Taliban Give Up Bin Laden as Iran Seals Afghan...
FOXNews - Sep 16, 2001

Pakistan will be giving the Taliban militia who rule Afghanistan an ultimatum:
Hand over Usama bin Laden or else. A group of top Pakistani delegates will ...
Taliban given three days to hand over bin Laden - CNN International

USA gains Pakistan's support for retaliation - USA Today

Iran to send warships to patrol against pirates
Jerusalem Post - ‎May 14, 2009‎
By AP Iran will send two warships to join an international flotilla protecting
cargo ships from pirates off the Somali coast, the country's state television ...
Iran sends two warships to confront Somali pirates Reuters
Iran sends two warships to fight pirates in Gulf of Aden WashingtonTV
Iran sends warships to fight Somali pirates AFP




Pakistan-Taliban fighting creates 2.2 million refugees
BP News - ‎2 hours ago‎
The government responded with an offensive that it says has killed an
estimated 1190 Taliban, with the loss of 75 government soldiers. Pakistan faces a ...
INDIA-PAKISTAN: Taliban Calls For A Timeout, Are Ignored Strategy Page

Civilians suffer in Pakistan army war on Taliban Washington Post

Pakistan business fighting on all fronts BBC News

United Press International - Daily Times
ISI Lahore headquarters attacked, Colonel among 35 killed
Indian Express - ‎30 minutes ago‎
If Govt does not act, sooner there will nopt be any Govt to Govern Pakistan. Taliban strike ISI headquarters in Lahore, 35 killedBy: Ratan Gupta | Thursday ...
Video: Pakistan: deadly blast rocks Lahore France 24
Pakistan: Trio held after deadly blast CNN International

Car Bombing Kills at Least 30 in Pakistan Washington Post
BBC News - Christian Science Monitor
Pakistan's Taliban rising? Ask the women.
Christian Science Monitor - ‎May 26, 2009‎
Private, coed institutions have reportedly received letters signed by the
Taliban warning them to close down or segregate their students, ...
Taliban expanding its writ in Karachi Thaindian.com
Taliban stuck between anvil and hammer Asia Times Online
'Pakistan realises Taliban threat'
Daily Times - ‎1 hour ago‎
... the opposition, the military and the civilians — realise that Pakistan must
oppose and confront the Taliban, who pose a threat to the Pakistani state, ...

One killed, five injured in Pakistan blasts AFP

Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan Leaders Meet in Tehran theTrumpet.com
AFGHANISTAN: Taliban Threatened by Twin Terrors Strategy Page
The Statesman - The New American
Fighting, Air Strikes, Bombings Kill 30 Across Afghanistan
Voice of America - ‎3 hours ago‎
NATO says its troops, along with Afghan forces, killed 15 Taliban militants who attacked their base in southeastern Paktia province. ...
Attacks, strikes kill 34 in Afghanistan AFP
Analysis: Fuelling the Afghan 'surge' United Press International
Second-Chance Logistics ISN
OnMilwaukee.com - Earthtimes (press release)
Thaindian.comHas Af-Pak strategy led to civil war in Pakistan?
Times of India - ‎May 23, 2009‎
The Pakistan army has reportedly airlifted troops into the Peochar valley in
order to surround the Pakistan Taliban Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammedi ...
Taliban set sights on Muslim mystics Daily Times
Taliban advance stalled The News International
Pakistan's mystics in sights of Taliban The Associated Press
Kentucky.com - Real News Network
A Race Against Time in Pakistan's Taliban War
TIME - ‎May 17, 2009‎
17, 2009 Pakistan army soldiers patrol near Swat valley, where security
forces are fighting with Taliban militants. Mohammad Sajjad / AP An airborne camera ...
Video: Bombs Tear Through Parts of Pakistan The Associated Press
Pakistan's Taliban crackdown puts civilians in crossfire The Detroit News
Pakistan: Taliban Members Cut Hair, Beards to Elude Troops KYTX
Long War Journal - MiamiHerald.com
Women in battle against Taliban in SwatTelegraph.co.uk - ‎May 21, 2009‎
Locals said an outflow had also started from South Waziristan amid
predictions of a Swat-style operation in the stronghold of Pakistan Taliban chief ...
This Week At War, No. 17 Foreign Policy
Pakistan: mass displacements continue, civilians report Taliban ... GenevaLunch
Pakistan Confident Of Victory Over Taliban NPR

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"

Roach

^ need more sources ?

Subliminal News - Nixed News, Hidden Headlines, Suppressed Stories

http://cryptome.org/

Electronic Privacy Information Center

http://agonist.org/


for various reasons the main page articles are no longer updated on subliminal news...however all the links to international news sources on the left side of the page appear to be working.

__________________

לזיין את הקופים

stoneric

Iran doesn't have a "crazy nuke program". Leave them out of it.

ProfessorMurder

I know, they've been trying to help capture bin laden.

You catch on quick, there's no foolin' you.

Pakistan is the walmart of Nukes and we're best friends,
While we keep calling Iran names.


I can see where this whole topic is going.

We Need World War III

There was a General or someone, reassuring the public
That we are up to fighting another world war.

It aired this morning, and found it eerie,
not advocating but affirming our abilities IF it were to happen.


There was another story,
Concern after 11 suicides in 5 months at Fort Campbell
CNN International - ‎1 hour ago‎
FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (CNN) -- The 101st Airborne's senior commander in effect
ordered his soldiers Wednesday not to commit suicide,


BOLTON: Well, there is some reason to believe that there may be an Iranian
financial connection here, as well. Certainly Iran and North Korea trade
information on ballistic missiles. We know that. That is been going on for over
10 years.

They may be trading information on the nuclear programs too. It has not
gone unnoticed that North Korea was building a nuclear reactor in Syria, very
unlikely that Syria could pay for that.

So the Iranian connection is quite significant. And it's a major reason why I
do not think you can look at North Korea's nuclear program only as an east
Asia problem. It is a Middle East problem, too.


(He gave this interview, while screaming down a hall and waving papers in the air)

Obama Administration Faces Instability in Key Nuclear Nations | Online NewsHour | May 27, 2009 | PBS

And welcome to you both. Professor Brzezinski, has any American president
ever faced nuclear proliferation challenges on this many fronts at once?


ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, Former National Security Adviser to President Carter:
No, I have to say that that hasn't happened before. And it's quite ominous,
and it emphasizes the importance of the United States doing what it can to
work with other states in responding to this.

It may come to the point that the United States has to respond alone -- for
example, if South Korea and Japan were in danger, because we are
committed as an ally to these two countries.

But as a general proposition, the more we can work with other states in
responding, the better it will be, the more likely we can handle it, and, of
course, the less likely that we'll be engaged in a prolonged and solitary conflict.


PHILIP ZELIKOW, University of Virginia: Well, we could argue about different
periods in which there were a number of different nations about to go
nuclear. In fact, nearly 20 years ago, you had North Korea and Pakistan
getting ready to go nuclear, and Iraq also trying to develop nuclear weapons.
Now we've got the Iranian dimension.

Here's the big picture, though, to keep in mind. We're engaged in a 60-year
struggle to contain the diffusion of nuclear weapons. We're now seeing
another round in a long, long struggle, but it's a really important round,
because we're really at a crossroads that we haven't been at before.

On the one hand, you have the path that President Obama laid out in his
speech in Prague in which he now says the United States wants to eliminate
nuclear weapons from the face of the Earth. He wants these weapons to go
away.

On the other hand, you have a series of developments that to a lot of the
world is saying, not only are these weapons not going away, there are going
to be a lot more of them. We're going to democratize nuclear weapons.


ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI:
We have to cool off the situation in the Far East. And the best way to do it
is to get China, and Russia, and Japan to work as close as they can with us.


And we have to be able to, in some fashion, help the Pakistani government to
maintain itself, lest its nuclear weapons fall into the hands of the Taliban.

And then, beyond that, of course, we have to explore seriously with our
friends whether the Iranians are prepared to negotiate seriously. These are
immediate tasks.


MARGARET WARNER: Give me one quick example of a new action, then I want
to get back to...

PHILIP ZELIKOW: A new action could be, for instance, that we would cut off
the channels of proliferating nuclear material that may have supplied nuclear
material from North Korea to Libya and to Syria, commercial and financial
conduits. We can act against those.

MARGARET WARNER: What would do you on North Korea?

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: Well, I think we've been doing, actually, a lot of that,
and we should continue doing that.

The more immediate problem is to make certain that the other nations
concerned, particularly China, Russia, Japan, are with us in a collective
response. If they are, then we could even conceivably impose additional
sanctions that are much more painful and visible, namely, interference with
shipments to North Korea.

MARGARET WARNER: And if they aren't?

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: And if they aren't, then I am afraid the choice for us
is a very difficult one. We can try to do it alone, but with the risk that this
could lead to confrontation in which we would then be alone.

PHILIP ZELIKOW: Briefly, China doesn't want to see either of these problems
go to a violent crisis. They may not have their own incentive in crafting a
solution, but they definitely have an incentive in avoiding a confrontation
that could have spillover effects for them, so they might be helpful.

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"

ProfessorMurder

Get your tin foil hats out.

Gen. Casey: Army would be ready for N. Korea action
By Roxana Tiron
Posted: 05/28/09 05:22 PM [ET]
The Army’s top military officer on Thursday said that his service would be
well-prepared to fight in a conventional war against North Korea, should it
ever get to that.




Army chief: US able to fight NKorea if necessary
The Associated Press - ‎21 hours ago‎
George Casey replied, "The short answer is yes," then added that "it would probably take us a little bit longer to shift gears" away from the type of ...
Casey: Army would have to 'shift gears' for N. Korea battle Stars and Stripes
Gen. Casey: Army would be ready for N. Korea action The Hill
Gen. Casey: US Ready to Fight War Against North Korea Antiwar.com

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"

Scion

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we know so very little about what is REALLY going on in the world.

All this debating and cogitating of news story facts takes place in a fantasy world built up of propaganda and lies.

Is the US an independent nation? NO

Do the government officials we are familiar with really have anything to do with power and control? NO

What they want us to believe, so we fight their battles (against each other) remain divided and conquered, and remain economic slaves is totally different than the truth. The real picture is international, has its head at the old ruling classes of the 'old world' -Europe, and uses lots of puppets and misinformation via various sources of fully controlled media.

Think of it this way: 'International Class War'. The world Empire is pretty much sewn up and the whole game is dirty. Everything we were taught in books and slave schools is fantasy. The truth lies in force and guns and money and power that does not get elected or selected in any way by the little fish.

Well, thats my informed opinion, far different than the 'conventional truths' we have been spoon fed and embrace.