Kompressor

Wanna know where I was in 2004?

Thailand and Myanmar. In both natural and corrupt disasters.

Not being some Armchair critic.

__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson

kameelyun

So? I was in Pakistan in 1997. What's your point?

I guess you missed the point that I get up from the armchair and out into the streets with my activism.

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

Kompressor

Guess my perception of your activism is thinly veiled self promotion instead of actual progress.

Seriously, i'm not normally this combative, but how can someone with a masters be so dumb whom can't understand the armchair metaphor.

And before you call me a sheep i'll point out I too have multiple degrees and certifications.

__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson

kameelyun

I don't think you're a sheep, you're just simply being a jerk.

In this thread I was talking specifically about my being one of THOUSANDS of protesters at the RNC in NYC in 2004. An insignificant face in the crowd adding to the strength in numbers. I doubt anyone knew who I was when the RNC was over. So I fail to see how this was self-promotion. I was one of thousands voicing opposition to Bush's policy of preemptive war and specifically the invasion of Iraq.

What do you mean I don't understand the armchair metaphor? You accused me of being an armchair critic, meaning someone who just plays e-commentator from behind his computer screen instead of actually going out and doing something to make the world a better place. I responded that I do more than just commentate on online forums and do take anti-war / 911truth protesting to the streets. I think I understand the metaphor quite well.

Go ahead, have the last word.

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

Kompressor

Thanks for ‘letting’ me have the last word.

You have no idea of the things I do, because I don’t feel the need to tell everyone about it, aka promote myself. I know you’re talking about this instance, but protesting an election convention really will/had not make any difference, much like the Tea Parties. One of thousands? Pretty much everyone in America was shocked when the pre-emptive strike was surprised on us, so please get off your high horse.

As someone who travels to Kenya, China, and SE Asia frequently pre and post 9/11 and someone of ‘questionable’ skin color, I get the backroom interrogations from Customs[pre]/Homeland Security[post] on what I’d wager quite more frequently than you choosing to essentially go to a tailgate. I give my personal time, knowledge, money, and affects to people who are actually oppressed, instead of promoting links, movies, and radio shows. Just because you’re outside and not really sitting in a chair doesn’t make it any different. You’re in the business of attempting to convert, not actually solving anything.

Also, as you ‘let’ me respond, I’ve read many of your posts throughout the years were you’ve revealed your ‘sheep’ psyche. Even in your own mind you do not believe the majority of Americans will understand your point of view, so ultimately it’s an exercise in futility.

So once again, thanks for ‘letting’ me have the last word.

__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson

Maturin

Yet another lovely post that lets us know you have full command of the "copy and paste" skillset. Well done.

Except you conveniently left out the first two paragraphs that puts the whole story in context:

See? I have cut and paste technology too.

I assume you have nothing else to say on the Suez Crisis? That maybe, just maybe, a factor that US was willing to let a symbol of 19th-century colonialism be nationalized by Egypt's people because it was the right thing to do?

__________________
"Creating something is not a democracy. The people have no say. The artist does. It doesn't matter what the people witter on about: they and their response comes after. They're not there for the moment of creation."

--Russell T Davies

kameelyun

Well I guess my high horse is making me continue. But you can have the last word again after this.

I guess we simply have to agree to disagree about protesting. Maybe I'm wearing rose colored glasses, but I guess I live in a reality where I think it can make a difference.

In France, for example, people regularly get out into the streets and demand their shit. And the powers that be give in. Almost like, "OK, we'll give you what you want if you'll just stop protesting and get back to work." It is because of such people power that even part time gas station employees in France receive six weeks vacation a year with pay. As that expatriate American in Paris interviewed in the pub in Michael Moore's "Sicko" said: "In France, the government is afraid of the people. In the U.S., the people are afraid of the government. They're too timid or lazy or scared to get out and protest. In France, that's what people do."

Who's to say it can't ever be like that in America? The solution is for many, many more to be involved in the process, whether it's protesting, getting initiatives on the ballot, or whatever.

I think you and can find some agreement in the fact that if only SMALL numbers of people are involved in the democratic process, the protests aren't going to make much difference. Going back several posts of mine in this thread, I'll ask it again: What if MILLIONS of people in America, from coast to coast, had taken to the streets and protested the obviously fraudulent 2000 and 2004 elections, as opposed to just a few hundred (or maybe thousand) in DC on inauguration day? Would there have been a full and fair recount? (John Bolton, bursting into a Florida library: "I'm with the Bush-Cheney team, and I'm here to stop the recount!") Or would America's cities have unleashed their riot police yielding a similar situation to what we've just seen in Iran? Because if that had been the case, it would certainly destroy the "it could never happen in America" myth. And the martial law imposed by the National Guard in New Orleans right after Katrina (because black people were pissed off and began to riot) where the NG basically had a shoot-to-kill policy, destroys the myth as well.

As for what you've done to make the world a better place, I highly commend you. But you don't need to minimize the things I've done. As far as promoting video documentaries etc., hey. Video is an excellent modern medium for the communication and exchange of ideas. Yes, anyone can make a video that claims anything, and slap it on youtube. Guess what? That means we have to use our own critical thinking filter. Much BS has been published in books too, in addition to excellent ones. A hundred years ago, would you have minimized someone's efforts at trying to spread knowledge by saying, "You don't actually solve anything, all you do is encourage people to read certain books." Funny, I thought reading books to gain enlightenment was one of the main purposes of school and university.

Finally, you said "Pretty much everyone in America was shocked when the pre-emptive strike was surprised on us..." This is simply not true. Back at the beginning of 2003, on the eve of the Iraq invasion, scientific polls showed that 70% of Americans believed Saddam Hussein was personally involved in 9/11 and that going into Iraq was payback. Here's an article from late 2003. Sorry for "promoting a link." And in 2007, significant numbers of Americans still believed this.

If you've read many of my posts over the years, you know my position on 9/11. So apart from promoting documentaries, what am I actually DOING? What is the truth and justice movement, in general, doing in terms of concrete action?

Well, have you heard of NYCCAN?

It stands for NYC Coalition for Accountability Now. It's an actual NYC ballot initiative. And they've got the necessary number of signatures. I don't live in NYC, but I have contributed money to this initiative. Perhaps many of the people involved in this concrete ACTION were triggered to get involved after watching a documentary someone handed them on the street or were guided to on the internet. As a poor person, I contributed a small amount of money to NYCCAN (sorry to be bragging again, but since I don't live in NYC I can't vote on the petition), but if I were a rich man, yiga diga diga diga diga diga diga dum, I would have contributed several thousand.

We all have our role to play in the hive. Once again, I commend you for all you've done to make the world a better place.

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

John F. Kerry

I hope that neda becomes a symbol of iranian freedom but i guess im a little skeptical about the basij and ayatolahs giving up power for any reason.

it may, like komp said, be their tianenman, but the communists still rule china and shake hands with bush every month or now obama i guess .

ProfessorMurder

The suez issues i'll have to look into more.
That was a little curve ball and your going to give me sometime on that one cheif.


And they either new for months and warned the honduran military not to
take over the country, they still did it.

they knew and and pretend they didn't know " the state department said so..."
The way they arrested him, something there that doesn't make sense,
all that build up to the election. high security, we would have been keeping
an eye if it's atlest one cia agent on the ground that could see it coming.

There's also trouble in Bolivia, Nicaragua, Ecuador, Bolivia, and venezuela. U.S. described ,GANG, the new axis of evil everyone!

Honduran coup hardly surprise to alert observers

But the crisis in Central America didn't grow in a vacuum. Latin American
experts had been predicting a crisis for weeks, as President Manuel Zelaya
pushed for a referendum that could be used to bolster his desire to change
the Honduran constitution and let him seek re-election in December.

The country's Supreme Court, electoral courts and congress all professed
belief that such a vote would be a threat to Honduras' struggling democracy
and should not be allowed.

But the vote, which was to be held the very Sunday the army went into the
palace to roust Mr. Zelaya from bed and fly him to Costa Rica still in his
pyjamas, had the support of the growing gang of Latin American countries
known as the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas. These include the
irascible Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, as well as the leaders of
Ecuador, Bolivia, Nicaragua and the current, but threatened, leadership in
Argentina.

The support from these groups, just weeks after they pressed the
Organization of American States to recommend returning Cuba to the fold --
a movement that was all but rejected by both the United States and Cuba --
should have been enough to put Honduras on the radar of the White House.




It's about Drugs and the NEW DRUG CORRIDOR!

But the vote, which was to be held the very Sunday the army went into the
palace to roust Mr. Zelaya from bed and fly him to Costa Rica still in his
pyjamas, had the support of the growing gang of Latin American countries
known as the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas. These include the
irascible Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, as well as the leaders of
Ecuador, Bolivia, Nicaragua and the current, but threatened, leadership in
Argentina.

The support from these groups, just weeks after they pressed the
Organization of American States to recommend returning Cuba to the fold --
a movement that was all but rejected by both the United States and Cuba --
should have been enough to put Honduras on the radar of the White House.


Just as pressing as this leftist and ultimately undemocratic sweep, however,
is the growing importance Honduras and other Central American countries
play in the intercontinental drug trade. This trade, which begins and ends on
America's shores, has brought increasing instability to the region, right up to
the U.S. border with Mexico.

As Mexican President Felipe Calderon has stepped up his country's campaign
against drug cartels that have claimed the lives of thousands of his
countrymen over the last couple of years, the trade has increasingly relied on
Central America to regain its footing. No country is so susceptible to the
corruption from this industry as is Honduras, the poorest in the region and
one that is home to some of America's bloodiest street gangs.


It's worth remembering that the reach of the drug industry in this hemisphere
extends to the likes of Colombia's leftist rebels, has camps in both Ecuador
and Venezuela protected by those governments, and has been able to
establish itself in Guatemala and Nicaragua. Many suspect President Zelaya,
who took office in 2006 as a bastion of the right and a champion of the
country's land-owning oligarchs before he switched 180 degrees in mid-term
to reflect the leftist, anti-American populism of Mr. Chávez, is also connected to the industry.

None of this, of course, justifies the coup d'état. In fact, as President
Chávez demonstrated when he rose in stature and power after a failed coup
in Venezuela meant to block his attempts to subvert that country's
constitution, such an action by the Honduran military can have the opposite
effect from that desired.

To be sure, given its history in the hemisphere for the past 150 years, the
U.S. must tread carefully in how it exerts its influence.* It's quite likely,
however, that to prevent a coup d'état would be much easier for the Obama
regime than to precipitate one.

That the White House was apparently caught flatfooted (Coup, What Coup?!?) and forced to follow
President Chávez's lead in calling for a reversal of the overthrow hurts U.S.
interests more than the preoccupied administration seems to realize.



*During the early 1980s, the United States established a continuing military
presence in Honduras with the purpose of supporting the Contra guerillas
fighting the Nicaraguan government and also developed an air strip and a
modern port in Honduras. Though spared the bloody civil wars wracking its
neighbors, the Honduran army quietly waged a campaign against Marxist-
Leninist militias such as Cinchoneros Popular Liberation Movement, notorious
for kidnappings and bombings[10], and allegedly some non-militants. The
operation included a CIA-backed campaign of extra-judicial killings by
government-backed units, most notably Battalion 316.[11]

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"

ProfessorMurder

Referencing is my forte, thank you.

Cut and paste is so, above us; don't you think.

The US was 'willing' may be putting it nicely.
And that canadian putting the UN in, had some part in it.
again Isreal seemed 'what's the word' ordained to own everything.

from wiki:

The UNEF mandate expired in 1979. Despite the efforts of the United States, Israel,
Egypt, and others to obtain an extension of the UN role in observing the peace between
Israel and Egypt, as called for under the Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty of 1979, the
mandate could not be extended because of the veto by the USSR in the security
council, at the request of Syria. Accordingly, negotiations for a new observer force in
the Sinai produced the Multinational Force and Observers (MFO), stationed in Sinai in
1981 in coordination with a phased Israeli withdrawal. It is there under agreements
between the United States, Israel, Egypt, and other nations. [40].

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"

Kompressor

France protests leave cars burned and property destroyed, and definitely do not get everything. Muslims in France are continually oppressed, from the rollerblading police force brutality to banning Headscarves/Burqas in schools. Also, considering the spiking unemployment rate and slumping economy before the financial crisis, they truly need people to work so they’ll appease them as fast as possible.

Now that the crisis has hit, more Americans are turning to their politicians and saying wtf? If they can’t deliver, they’ll get pushed out of office. That is why we now have a filibuster proof Senate.

Protests only work if you were a part of the 'machine/group' and are causing it to slow down, like Unions/Industry. I do not believe is the majority of political protests, as most opposing supporters do not work in the government/party. RNC/DNC/Tea Parties protests do nothing of the sort, it's essentially just blowharding from behind the fence. In Iran, women are definitely not a part of the machine, which is why Neda's death will [sadly] most likely be in vain.

America has its process for change, as you say through ballot initiatives, debates, [etc]. Most importantly however, is the ability to work within the system. Like Ron Paul, if you can have the balls to take on office itself, you’re still making a tremendous impact regardless if you win or not. I’m glad you’re trying to do this with NYCANN. I'd agree that non-profit NGO's can be productive, but I also realize the very fact we can create NGO's, regardless of its intent, is a sign of the lack of opression in America as well as the ability to post a monkey drinking its own piss [aka slapping something together] on YouTube. Even when I get interrogated, although can be intimating, I don’t get waterboarded/harmed. Some agents are dicks and some are pretty cool. As the years go by my holding times get less and less, since I have a firm handle on Airport/Airline regulations I know the limits of what they are capable of. Also lets me know the weakpoints to still smuggle a small bag of bud in/out too, heh. The reason Obama's campaign [the core, not the fringe associations] was so effective was in how non-judgmental yet highly effective and supremely user-organized it was. As an IT guy who was involved with the Campaign I am still in awe at what they accomplished, and they also hold the largest direct databases of active voters/polls, and even though the website may seem apathetic to the general public, being a registered member incurs vast amount of emails to rally around local congressmen, discussion meetups/debates [not protests], etc not of the Democratic Party, but the issues itself. I see this as the millions of people in your theory, and it’s why the Dems are kicking so much ass lately. However, as the Dems are a prime example, even numbers can’t unify everyone on every issue.

Thanks for the kind words, admittedly I was pretty drunk when I made that combative post, though I consider myself a pretty coherent drunk. Of course as the regret hangover sets in, I apologize for my tone. Like I said, I’m not usually that hostile unless I’m trying to be funny/sarcastic.

As for videos/media/books, I don’t believe in giving people certain selections, I believe in giving them the entire Library/Internet. Build the infrastructure, literally, and figuratively by a strong, well-rounded Education. Have all sides present themselves just as intricately. Let people determine how Enlightened they want to be, and if they can articulate an opposing opinion/theory all the better it is on my own critical thinking.

However, now comes the sour notes. I do believe your heart is in the right place, I just don’t see of what I’ve seen from your and others like ProfMurder, LPYW, Hostile, etc., vids and links [yes I usually do try to read/see them] as an effective means of change. Most of it seems like edutainment and/or dated material in the sense that it’s not the general perception presently, especially when I see Wikipedia as main reference points and Michael Moore movies, who is clearly for profit and an entertainer. Often there’s a detailed premise, but then no fix/solution to righting the situation. When I see flashy graphics and overwhelmingly emotional responses than actual debate and factchecking, it starts losing credibility in mind. After all, documentaries are supposed to be void of opinion, whereas things like sicko and a few others I’ve seen posted tend to be initially pretty skewed. Not to mention that subtle holier than thou connotation within the Movements that seems to eminate is a pretty big turn off as well.

Besides the links/vids posted, I recall you having a radio show and regularly have rallies, which I think is a good thing. Again, I applaud what you’re doing with NYCANN as well. But there seems to be so many varying theories within the Truth and Justice Movement. 9/11 being done by the American Government, Government collaborating with other nations, the Project for the New American Century or whatever the title is, on the surface they do seem quite relatable. When I start diving into the specifics though things get fuzzy and speculative, and often starts misaligning with what I know in my own independent research, outside the lens of 9/11, of factual history/politics/economics and their relations. At this point he lack of progress both sides, the ‘official story’ and the Truthers have made, I’m willing to wait til 2021 when Bush’s records will be declassified and in the meantime we’ll just have to deal with the situation as is currently. Hopefully if NYCANN can get access to the raw data before then and turn theory into fact all the better. I’m just opposed to all this speculation/theory, I’m all for concrete action, aka solutions. Hell I may donate myself once I look into it a little harder Mr. Converter, just please don't shove Michael Moore movies in my face.

Finally, the pre-emptive strike remark I meant that yes there were lots of people for the war because of the speculative WODs/Links, but an entry date had been given which wasn’t followed, as weeks before the day they had a ‘Window of Opportunity’ and started bombing early on. That is what I meant, as it irked quite a bit of people that this isn’t going to be a moral war like WWII. Admittedly perhaps not everyone but it was the physical start that something shady is going on.

All in all, I'm glad we got cordial and can both agree and disagree, not just to disagree.

__________________
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson

kameelyun

...with out making it long, I'll say you do make some very good points there. I was only very foggily aware of the extent of Muslim persecution in France. As far as Michael Moore goes, one thing I do criticize him for is the way he constantly takes the absolute worst aspects of the American system and juxtaposes them against the absolute best aspects of foreign systems, for the sake of shock value. No doubt his films do often make Americans think, "OK, that's it, I'm moving to Canada [France, England]."

I don't have a radio show, but I have been on Cincinnati public access TV with Cincy911truth/WeAreChangeOhio, and have posted the youtube vids here. You might be thinking of that.

As for being drunk and getting combative, been there done that. There was this really right wing guy on Amazon who wears his fundamentalist evangelical Christianity on his sleeve and he's a huge defender of the official 9/11 story. In January 2008, in the middle of a debate thread, after I'd had about 8 or 9 beers, and realizing my opponent's position was not going to budge, and being in a pretty nasty mood for career reasons that day, I went on an all-out attack on his faith. You've seen me be cordial and civil, now check out what I'm like after 9 beers:

I gotta say though, as mean spirited as that was, when I look back I can't help but giggle at the "sit in your pew in church, squinting your eyes as you pray" bit. Oh well. I'm spiritual rather than religious, and I certainly don't dislike all Christians, obviously. I was just really mean when drunk.

For your amusement, here is the guy's response, which he didn't type until over a month later.

As you can see, a huge difference between when I'm sober and drunk!

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

ProfessorMurder

Obama administration needs to maintain tough stance against Honduran coup | The Progressive

Some of the generals behind the putsch are graduates of the infamous U.S.
Army training academy for Latin American militaries, formerly called the
School of the Americas, in Fort Benning, Ga. With at least 11 dictators among
its alumni, former Rep. Joseph Kennedy famously claimed the training
academy has produced “more dictators than any other school in the history of the world.”

The military coup thwarted Zelaya’s move to introduce a voters’ referendum
on whether to rewrite the country’s constitution. The military brass is partial
to the current constitution because it was drafted in the early 1980s under
the military dictatorship of Gen. Policarpo Paz García, another graduate of the
School of the Americas.

After the passage of the constitution in 1982, the military cemented its
dominion over Honduran political affairs. The generals kept a tight rein on the
population through a military death squad unit known as “Battalion 316,”
which was trained by the CIA and killed hundreds of Hondurans. (Former
members of this battalion also took part in the recent coup.)

In the early 1980s, CIA station chiefs and the U.S. Embassy led by then-
Ambassador John Negroponte called the shots in Honduras. (Negroponte went
on to hold various senior posts in the George W. Bush administration,
including director of national intelligence.) The country became the staging
ground for the Reagan administration’s covert wars against rebels in El
Salvador and the socialist Sandinista government in Nicaragua.

Deep U.S. involvement endures to this day. Honduras maintains a large U.S.
military base that is one of the Pentagon’s last remaining footholds in Latin
America, while the Honduran military still receives millions in U.S. taxpayer
dollars. This same military has brutally repressed massive street
demonstrations clamoring for the return of the country’s democratically
elected leader.

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"

ProfessorMurder

2 "School of Americas" Generals Charged In Crimes In Colombia - Progressive Politics and Opinion Opinion

by Sherwood Ross
Wednesday, 10 June 2009

Two Colombian generals, both of whom received training at the U.S. Army's "School of
The Americas"(SOA) at Ft. Benning, Ga., have been accused by authorities there of
crimes involving narcotics and collaborating with criminal paramilitary groups, according
to a report in the June 15th issue of The Nation magazine.

Brig. Gen. Pauxelino Latorre has been charged "with laundering millions of dollars for a
paramilitary drug ring, and prosecutors say they are looking into his activities as head of
the Seventeenth Brigade," investigative journalist Teo Ballve reports. He notes that
criminal probes repeatedly linked his unit "to illegal paramilitary groups that had brutally
killed thousands" of Colombian farmers in an effort to seize their land for palm oil production.

Another general, Rito Alejo Del Rio, former Seventeenth Brigade leader, is in jail on
charges of collaborating with paramilitaries, gangs that have been responsible for
widespread atrocities. He also received training at SOA.

Various firms currently engaged in palm oil development since 2002 apparently have
received $75 million in U.S. Agency for International Development money under "Plan
Comombia," Ballve writes. And some of the firms appear to be tied to narco-
traffickers, "in possible violation of federal law." The writer notes Colombia's
paramilitaries are on the State Department's list of foreign "terrorist" organizations.


"Plan Colombia is fighting against drugs militarily at the same time it gives money to
support palm, which is used by paramilitary mafias to launder money," The Nation quotes
Colombian Senator Gustavo Petro, as saying. "The United States is implicitly subsidizing
drug traffickers."

President Alvaro Uribe has urged Colombians to increase palm production from 750,000
to 15 million acres to cash in on the expected boom in biofuels. "Oil palm, or African
palm, is one of the few aid-funded crops whose profits can match coca profits," Ballve
notes. But human rights groups have long accused palm companies, notably Urapalma,
of cultivating stolen lands, he adds.

Senator Patrick Leahy has attached an amendment to this year's Plan Colombia funding
(for 2010) to ban palm projects that "cause the forced displacement of local people" but
in the bill's current draft, Ballve says, Leahy's amendment is marked for deletion.

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"

Maturin

I'm going to do something irrational and address the original subject of this thread.

As more weeks go by, the image of Neda seems less important, and her importance will be judged largely if any real change ultimately comes to Iran. I think if the status quo remains people will slowly forget her. The parallel that comes to mind is the one of the man standing in front of the tank in China in 1989. But I don't think the image of Nada is that immediately striking.

__________________
"Creating something is not a democracy. The people have no say. The artist does. It doesn't matter what the people witter on about: they and their response comes after. They're not there for the moment of creation."

--Russell T Davies

ProfessorMurder

I wish someone would have caught on tape of that kid,
that got shot in the dick.


http://www.truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=2241 if it don't play

Where are his supporters and well wishers?

CIA DICK SNIPERS
CIA should know, you can't start a revolution by shooting people in the dick.

__________________
"No contaban con mi astucia!"