the 9/11 myth fucked up the 00s- the health care myth will do the same to the 10s

John F. Kerry · 07-20-2009, 02:17 PM

Ok so all you people who post your nuremberg trials shit that they said "the masses will be much more easily duped by one big lie then by many small ones"

so ok, maybe you might believe bush lied about 9/11 or at least that he used it to further a preplanned agenda and take away civil liberties and attack iraq.

well if you do belive something along those lines then u better open your ears because the same thing is happening again!!!

OBAMA and the liberal special interest groups (ie nancy pelosi, waxman, rengel, weiner and a few other far far left radical dems) want to help moveon.org and code pink get free health care for all their constituents payed for the the rich among us and as a consequence by employers across the country which will drastically damage the economy and lower the quality of health care AND put the government is charge of it-

so how could it be that they would be getting support for a such a ludacrous program? THE SAME WAY BUSH DID POST 9/11 for a WAR ON TERROR.

they had a plan for how to liberalize healthcare and tax the rich and businesses to pay for it many years ago - (HELL IT WAS IN 1993 THAT WE FIRST HEARD ABOUT IT)

NOw think about it- for the past 20 years (since 1993) our society has had the LONGEST PERIOD OF UNINTERRUPTED PROSPERITY IN HUMAN HISTORY!!!

THE ENTIRE WORLD BENEFITED EXPONENTIALLY FROM THE CLINTON-BUSH years...

but now suddenly as the economy tanked last year it became a "truth" that healthcare in america was "BROKEN" ?!!!

the argument is that more and more people are uninsured etc and they need to have healthcare or else our society is in real trouble.

YOU KNOW WHAT I SAY ?! BULSHIT!

for 20 years as people moved into their own homes they couldnt afford and got accustomed to lifestyles they couldnt afford it was fine and dandy that they didnt have health insurance or health care?! WHY? im not sure but it apparently was....

now why all of a sudden is it THE issue that needs to be "fixed"

let me ask you - are YOU happy with YOUR HEALTHCARE?

IS YOUR NEIGHBOR HAPPY WITH HIS HEALTHCARE?

SO where are all these PEOPLE that are just pushed under the rug and so sad and crying like a neverending playing of Sicko that the healthcare system just isnt fair and is cruel? Do you ever actually see large masses of people protesting against not being given health care?

maybe ask your self WHY is it that THIS ISSUE which WASNT ADRESSED DURING OUR ENTIRE 20 YEARS OF UNINTERRUPTED PROSPERITY (WHEN MOST AMERICANS HAD HEALTH CARE THAT WAS THE ENVY OF THE WORLD) EXPLAIN WHY ITS SUDDENLY A PROBLEM THAT DEMANS HUGE TAX INCREASES which WILL UNDOUBTABLY LOWER THE QUALITY OF CARE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE ENJOYED THEIR CARE AND RAISE THE COSTS FOR THE SAME....

IS IT THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO GIVE YOU HEALTHCARE ANYMORE THAT IT WAS THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO GIVE PEOPLE HOUSES?

DO ACORN AND CODE PINK AND MOVEON.ORG RULE OUR COUNTRY OR DOES THE MIDDLE CLASS ?!!!?!??!

verklingen · 07-20-2009, 02:20 PM

we're trying to keep a civilization going here, chum

stoneric · 07-20-2009, 02:51 PM

Jesus, I wish bush had only fucked us up by trying to get healthcare reform.

Ego Tripping · 07-20-2009, 02:57 PM

Too many caps, too many ideas, too many directions. Cool off, take a walk and come back and try again in a way that doesn't make you sound so extremely paranoid.

And as I watch some family members go through some health issues, I can assure you, most people are not happy with their health care or they simple can't afford the things they need. Things have changed, rather rapidly, and yes, there's definitely a huge problem. There's special interests, no doubt, but not everything that happens in America is signaling total enslavement. Comparing this to the circumstances of 9/11 and actions of the Bush Admin. is beyond a stretch...that string broke right off the bat.

The most important part that is coming with this reform is the idea of 'preventative medicine' and the return/incorporation of more holistic treatments that could prevent all the little things that clog the system up when it comes to taking care of the bigger health concerns for people.

Waves · 07-20-2009, 02:58 PM

healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare

meanwhile

iraq afghanistan

Waves · 07-20-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Do you ever actually see large masses of people protesting against not being given health care?

Those people couldnt afford the bus ticket to the rally.

Seriously, if you dont think the healthcare in our country sucks, you know nothing about our healthcare. thats about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

IS IT THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO GIVE YOU HEALTHCARE ANYMORE THAT IT WAS THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO GIVE PEOPLE HOUSES?

http://www.hud.gov/

it sounds once again like your repeating arguments you heard the grown ups talking about at the dinner table. im hesitant to actually write an intelligent response to your posts because i know it falls on deaf ears, and you havent actually thought your position through past the first few gaps of logic it takes to arrive in those positions in the first place.

The Rev · 07-20-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

NOw think about it- for the past 20 years (since 1993) our society has had the LONGEST PERIOD OF UNINTERRUPTED PROSPERITY IN HUMAN HISTORY!!!

Actually, there was a recession in 2001. It was short lived, compared to what we're in today, but today's more severe recession is the price we're paying for that. In 2001, the dow dropped from a high of 10738.87 in 2000 to a low of 7850.29 in late 2002. Unemployment also increased from 4% to 6% and remained at that level until late 2003.

Business Cycle Expansions and Contractions

The reason for the recession was a period, throughout the nineties, that saw accelerated monetary and credit expansion, the dot com bubble, and the first half of the overall stock market bubble that just burst. The market dumped in '01 as well, but the bubble was quickly re-inflated, and the dow grew to over 14K before it burst again. If you look at the last 6 months of market activity, you can see that the new round of inflation is having much the same effect as the last, with one of the quickest run-ups of the Dow in market history.

What we saw then, as now, is not prosperity at all, but inflation. People are getting rich, but at the expense of others who don't see their incomes rise faster than the CPI.

The Rev

John F. Kerry · 07-20-2009, 05:05 PM

i didnt really take the time to make my first post as coherent as it could have been.

what makes healthcare such a fundamental issue that we have to raise peoples taxes to "fix" right now?!!

the main point im making is that just as people would never have agreed to go into iraq if they hadnt been misled by bush (and the neoconservatives) people would not be supporting healhcare socialization and taxation of the rich to pay for it if they werent lied to by the liberal special interests that have decided this is the best oppourtunity they will ever have to get their way in a generation.

It would make more sense to raise taxes on the rich if we were going to use it to grow our economy, all these ideas will do is grow the government bureocracy so that in 10 years its twice as big costs twice as much and works half as well. AND IT WILL COST MORE, NOT LESS.

The Rev · 07-20-2009, 05:16 PM

I don't know how the healthcare debate will finally go, but I do agree that this economic crisis has been exploited obscenely by those in power. The ever-flowing money hose that America seems startlingly unfazed by (a couple hundred billion here, a trillion there, another stimulus everywhere) would never have been possible without the fears of "economic apocalypse" that were so effectively stoked by both the Bush and Obama administrations. I remember when a trillion dollar national debt was scary as shit. Now, it's a 3.5 trillion dollar DEFICIT. It's straight up nuts.

The Rev

John F. Kerry · 07-20-2009, 05:27 PM

and the obama "answer" to what your saying rev is such bulshit.

its basically twofold

1. that the deficit is not their fault, its bushes

and 2. that on a 10 year timescale based on their economic predictions it will make things better (conveniently ignoring the obvious fact that no 10 year prediction in the history of any government ANYWHERE has ever proved accurate and when it proves wrong they can just say "oh the metrics were off" and consider themselves blameless) their plan makes us have record deficits until 2015 or something so that someday in the future it will turn a curve and "get better" - far from expecting this to happen, does anyone even think that seems likely to happen? something thats more and more expensive for years and years eventually will get cheap?

John F. Kerry · 07-20-2009, 05:33 PM

some republican senators have said what we need to do is FIX the parts about the healthcare system that DONT WORK (as everyone admits there are some) . and NOT CHANGE THE PARTS THAT PEOPLE ARE HAPPY WITH IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.

is that really so hard to ask? i mean really? why do we need a new hoover dam when a few smaller programs could eliminate most of the problems without destroying the amazing and wonderful and "envy of the world" foundation that our healthcare system is and has been for 80 years.

John F. Kerry · 07-20-2009, 05:47 PM

waves u know HUD is a pretty good example -

HUD is a low income housing authority that HELPS people get houses- whether by getting them into low-income housing ,or projects, or by getting old houses fixed up slightly to make them livable for low income people.- ALL IN ALL a GREAT IDEA.

What HUD ISNT- a program where the government takes control of all housing and then rations it out on a most-politically-connected - best served basis.

why cant we have a HUD type program for low income and poor people for HEALTHCARE?? because the liberal elites and pressure groups have decided that what they want is FREE HEALTHCARE for the poor paid for by the rich - more entitlements- and to pay for them we dont grow the pie- we take a bigger cut from those who could help our economy rise again, thus decreasing the likelihood that it will.

Ego Tripping · 07-20-2009, 07:37 PM

John...

The government is proposing a public OPTION. Not a takeover of the private sector.

We have public schools and private schools. You pax taxes to support the public schools and they are free for everyone to use. You can choose to not use them and go private, but you still pay taxes to make sure the schools stay open for the common populace to use.

Why should healthcare be any different?

scottishbastard · 07-20-2009, 07:48 PM

I am far too lazy to read this entire thread right now, so if I go off track let me know...

Whether or not we have a civilization to keep going we are going in the wrong direction.
What this health care plan involves is taking taxpayer money and taking further taxes from private health care to fund a federal health care program.
The good part about this is that most people will have health care, but the bad part is that the government is employing more fascist economic techniques by using the public and private sector's money to pay for a program which will essentially be competition against private healthcare.

Everything I've heard has said this will lead to increased healthcare costs, not reduced ones.

I guess I just find it scary that the government is now running GMC which is running Ford (who took no federal money) out of business, and soon enough healthcare which will be competing with private healthcare. This is what is called the 'corporate state' (-I.E. Benito Mussolini).

Ego Tripping · 07-20-2009, 07:51 PM

GMC and Ford should have made better cars.

And Doctors shouldn't have been so greedy.

It's the next step...it doesn't mean it's going there, its too early to tell, but we have to stay vigilant. Honestly, with the way people are getting involved more and more, I can't ever forsee it turning into something that out of control.

And if we got through the Bush Admin, this seems like a cakewalk. At least it's about Healthcare and not Torture.

scottishbastard · 07-20-2009, 08:23 PM

I don't think extremely liberal is any better than extremely conservative...excep t in the sense that we may not be at constant war the next 4-8 years, but even that seems unlikely.

And here's the thing, yeah American cars suck for the most part. This is why we need to let them fail, or figure out their shit. If they need federal intervention to even exist, what is the point?

Ford may make crap cars, but they took no bailout money and had a small increase in revenue recently. GM now is now a government run auto company and is most likely going to suceed at putting ford out of business.
If ford is going to go down, atleast let it happen because of their faults, not GM's.

John F. Kerry · 07-20-2009, 08:27 PM

ok well IF , and its a big if IF healthcare should be a right.

it DEFINATELY should not be paid for by taxes on only a small percentage of society (and whether it makes logical sense to kill small business and business owners who will then not hire people and damage the economy further remains to be seen or is a personal question - but its still WRONG),

we could go to mars by 2025 if we taxed the rich 5%, which would u rather have humans on MARS? or free healthcare for the poor?

money can do lots of cool things, that doesnt give the gov't the right to take more and more of it and make taxes the highest they've been in a generation...

John F. Kerry · 07-20-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottishbastard

I don't think extremely liberal is any better than extremely conservative...excep t in the sense that we may not be at constant war the next 4-8 years, but even that seems unlikely.

And here's the thing, yeah American cars suck for the most part. This is why we need to let them fail, or figure out their shit. If they need federal intervention to even exist, what is the point?

Ford may make crap cars, but they took no bailout money and had a small increase in revenue recently. GM now is now a government run auto company and is most likely going to suceed at putting ford out of business.
If ford is going to go down, atleast let it happen because of their faults, not GM's.

Exactly.

Its not just wrong because its stupid.

Its not just wrong because it subsidizes cars no one wants

Its wrong because its DOOMED from the start. just like a public healthcare system run by the change man.

John F. Kerry · 07-20-2009, 08:53 PM

to continue scotishbastards analogy.

what a public healthcare option will do is as follows

first it will be far less expensive than private options for 2 reasons: 1 it is worse and less inclusive and provides less choice than private plans. and 2. it will be subsidized by rich people taxes.

now this plan will go on the market and employers will immediately force their workers to take it in one way or another, whether overtly or through subversive means.

then once the private companies have only a tiny amount of customers because the "average joes" will be on gov't subsidized care, the private companies will have to raise their rates and reduce care levels to compete- then more people will go to the gov't. sponosored gov't regulated. and taxpayer funded! heath care option.

eventually this process will dillute private providers and make it almost impossible for workers to get anything but the public plan.

and then we will have a system that is only sustainable by continuing to tax the rich more and more and more to pay for the shortfalls of the system, despite the fact that the system itself will have less choice, lower quality, longer waits and higher costs.

its just like buying a GM car, seriously, thats a perfect analogy in some ways.

no one bys GMs, so lets have rich people pay 4,000 per gm car to make them cheaper....the only problem is Japan can make them for 4,000 cheaper WITHOUT taxing their citizens, so in the end, we arent competing any better at all- we've simply SUBSIDIZED LOW QUALITY AND FAILURE.

its also similar to how iran keeps oil prices low domestically for political gain.... fuck yourself in the long run for poltiical benefit in the short run. go Obama~!

HTAM · 07-20-2009, 10:42 PM

I think it's interesting that there is a GRIP of cash going out of this country everyday for the benefit of other countries and it's citizens. There's a lot of money there, and a daily haircut in spending across the board could fund TPO......for this countries citizens.

The Public Option is supposedly similiar to Medicare for Seniors. The hospitals and Doctors are already accepting that. But some don't.
There are plenty of clinics around me that will take cash from you for a visit. Around a $100.00, walk in or appointment, without insurance. A $100.00 for a general office visit and a script or two. Really? That's what insurance companies pay?

It sounds like TPO wants to mandate that everyone accept it if they want to continue with Medicare, and wants to tie the rates to Medicare rates. And that's where the insurance companies stand to lose, and likely, why they are fighting this. All of a sudden they are dealing with competition that can take away their current pool of customers they bill to provide coverage for.

Really, does anyone think it's reasonable to pay $100.00 for the visit alone? Never mind the 'scripts...

07-20-2009, 02:17 PM	#1 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,734 Thanks: 1,831 Thanked 497 Times in 355 Posts	the 9/11 myth fucked up the 00s- the health care myth will do the same to the 10s Ok so all you people who post your nuremberg trials shit that they said "the masses will be much more easily duped by one big lie then by many small ones" so ok, maybe you might believe bush lied about 9/11 or at least that he used it to further a preplanned agenda and take away civil liberties and attack iraq. well if you do belive something along those lines then u better open your ears because the same thing is happening again!!! OBAMA and the liberal special interest groups (ie nancy pelosi, waxman, rengel, weiner and a few other far far left radical dems) want to help moveon.org and code pink get free health care for all their constituents payed for the the rich among us and as a consequence by employers across the country which will drastically damage the economy and lower the quality of health care AND put the government is charge of it- so how could it be that they would be getting support for a such a ludacrous program? THE SAME WAY BUSH DID POST 9/11 for a WAR ON TERROR. they had a plan for how to liberalize healthcare and tax the rich and businesses to pay for it many years ago - (HELL IT WAS IN 1993 THAT WE FIRST HEARD ABOUT IT) NOw think about it- for the past 20 years (since 1993) our society has had the LONGEST PERIOD OF UNINTERRUPTED PROSPERITY IN HUMAN HISTORY!!! THE ENTIRE WORLD BENEFITED EXPONENTIALLY FROM THE CLINTON-BUSH years... but now suddenly as the economy tanked last year it became a "truth" that healthcare in america was "BROKEN" ?!!! the argument is that more and more people are uninsured etc and they need to have healthcare or else our society is in real trouble. YOU KNOW WHAT I SAY ?! BULSHIT! for 20 years as people moved into their own homes they couldnt afford and got accustomed to lifestyles they couldnt afford it was fine and dandy that they didnt have health insurance or health care?! WHY? im not sure but it apparently was.... now why all of a sudden is it THE issue that needs to be "fixed" let me ask you - are YOU happy with YOUR HEALTHCARE? IS YOUR NEIGHBOR HAPPY WITH HIS HEALTHCARE? SO where are all these PEOPLE that are just pushed under the rug and so sad and crying like a neverending playing of Sicko that the healthcare system just isnt fair and is cruel? Do you ever actually see large masses of people protesting against not being given health care? maybe ask your self WHY is it that THIS ISSUE which WASNT ADRESSED DURING OUR ENTIRE 20 YEARS OF UNINTERRUPTED PROSPERITY (WHEN MOST AMERICANS HAD HEALTH CARE THAT WAS THE ENVY OF THE WORLD) EXPLAIN WHY ITS SUDDENLY A PROBLEM THAT DEMANS HUGE TAX INCREASES which WILL UNDOUBTABLY LOWER THE QUALITY OF CARE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE ENJOYED THEIR CARE AND RAISE THE COSTS FOR THE SAME.... IS IT THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO GIVE YOU HEALTHCARE ANYMORE THAT IT WAS THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO GIVE PEOPLE HOUSES? DO ACORN AND CODE PINK AND MOVEON.ORG RULE OUR COUNTRY OR DOES THE MIDDLE CLASS ?!!!?!??!

07-20-2009, 02:20 PM	#2 (permalink)
verklingen Radical Dreamer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: texas Posts: 8,005 Thanks: 811 Thanked 1,491 Times in 946 Posts	we're trying to keep a civilization going here, chum __________________ “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” rip matt

07-20-2009, 02:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,468 Thanks: 229 Thanked 665 Times in 443 Posts	Too many caps, too many ideas, too many directions. Cool off, take a walk and come back and try again in a way that doesn't make you sound so extremely paranoid. And as I watch some family members go through some health issues, I can assure you, most people are not happy with their health care or they simple can't afford the things they need. Things have changed, rather rapidly, and yes, there's definitely a huge problem. There's special interests, no doubt, but not everything that happens in America is signaling total enslavement. Comparing this to the circumstances of 9/11 and actions of the Bush Admin. is beyond a stretch...that string broke right off the bat. The most important part that is coming with this reform is the idea of 'preventative medicine' and the return/incorporation of more holistic treatments that could prevent all the little things that clog the system up when it comes to taking care of the bigger health concerns for people. __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day. Last edited by Ego Tripping; 07-20-2009 at 03:01 PM.

07-20-2009, 02:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
Waves Duderino Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chiburbs Posts: 15,405 Thanks: 991 Thanked 4,036 Times in 2,224 Posts	healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare healthcare meanwhile iraq afghanistan __________________ On this life that we call home The years go fast and the days go so slow

07-20-2009, 05:16 PM	#9 (permalink)
The Rev Clear Light Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,864 Thanks: 5,015 Thanked 5,419 Times in 2,864 Posts	I don't know how the healthcare debate will finally go, but I do agree that this economic crisis has been exploited obscenely by those in power. The ever-flowing money hose that America seems startlingly unfazed by (a couple hundred billion here, a trillion there, another stimulus everywhere) would never have been possible without the fears of "economic apocalypse" that were so effectively stoked by both the Bush and Obama administrations. I remember when a trillion dollar national debt was scary as shit. Now, it's a 3.5 trillion dollar DEFICIT. It's straight up nuts. The Rev __________________ Budforce - My Friend August 29, 1973- May 25, 2012

07-20-2009, 02:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
stoneric bougeman Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 5,644 Thanks: 703 Thanked 1,512 Times in 1,067 Posts	Jesus, I wish bush had only fucked us up by trying to get healthcare reform.

07-20-2009, 05:05 PM	#8 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,734 Thanks: 1,831 Thanked 497 Times in 355 Posts	i didnt really take the time to make my first post as coherent as it could have been. what makes healthcare such a fundamental issue that we have to raise peoples taxes to "fix" right now?!! the main point im making is that just as people would never have agreed to go into iraq if they hadnt been misled by bush (and the neoconservatives) people would not be supporting healhcare socialization and taxation of the rich to pay for it if they werent lied to by the liberal special interests that have decided this is the best oppourtunity they will ever have to get their way in a generation. It would make more sense to raise taxes on the rich if we were going to use it to grow our economy, all these ideas will do is grow the government bureocracy so that in 10 years its twice as big costs twice as much and works half as well. AND IT WILL COST MORE, NOT LESS.

07-20-2009, 05:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,734 Thanks: 1,831 Thanked 497 Times in 355 Posts	and the obama "answer" to what your saying rev is such bulshit. its basically twofold 1. that the deficit is not their fault, its bushes and 2. that on a 10 year timescale based on their economic predictions it will make things better (conveniently ignoring the obvious fact that no 10 year prediction in the history of any government ANYWHERE has ever proved accurate and when it proves wrong they can just say "oh the metrics were off" and consider themselves blameless) their plan makes us have record deficits until 2015 or something so that someday in the future it will turn a curve and "get better" - far from expecting this to happen, does anyone even think that seems likely to happen? something thats more and more expensive for years and years eventually will get cheap? Last edited by John F. Kerry; 07-20-2009 at 05:29 PM.

07-20-2009, 05:33 PM	#11 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,734 Thanks: 1,831 Thanked 497 Times in 355 Posts	some republican senators have said what we need to do is FIX the parts about the healthcare system that DONT WORK (as everyone admits there are some) . and NOT CHANGE THE PARTS THAT PEOPLE ARE HAPPY WITH IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER. is that really so hard to ask? i mean really? why do we need a new hoover dam when a few smaller programs could eliminate most of the problems without destroying the amazing and wonderful and "envy of the world" foundation that our healthcare system is and has been for 80 years.

07-20-2009, 05:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,734 Thanks: 1,831 Thanked 497 Times in 355 Posts	waves u know HUD is a pretty good example - HUD is a low income housing authority that HELPS people get houses- whether by getting them into low-income housing ,or projects, or by getting old houses fixed up slightly to make them livable for low income people.- ALL IN ALL a GREAT IDEA. What HUD ISNT- a program where the government takes control of all housing and then rations it out on a most-politically-connected - best served basis. why cant we have a HUD type program for low income and poor people for HEALTHCARE?? because the liberal elites and pressure groups have decided that what they want is FREE HEALTHCARE for the poor paid for by the rich - more entitlements- and to pay for them we dont grow the pie- we take a bigger cut from those who could help our economy rise again, thus decreasing the likelihood that it will.

07-20-2009, 07:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,468 Thanks: 229 Thanked 665 Times in 443 Posts	John... The government is proposing a public OPTION. Not a takeover of the private sector. We have public schools and private schools. You pax taxes to support the public schools and they are free for everyone to use. You can choose to not use them and go private, but you still pay taxes to make sure the schools stay open for the common populace to use. Why should healthcare be any different? __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

07-20-2009, 07:48 PM	#14 (permalink)
scottishbastard ARGH! FUCK! KILL! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Castaic/Los Angeles California BITCHES! Posts: 1,954 Thanks: 32 Thanked 69 Times in 60 Posts	I am far too lazy to read this entire thread right now, so if I go off track let me know... Whether or not we have a civilization to keep going we are going in the wrong direction. What this health care plan involves is taking taxpayer money and taking further taxes from private health care to fund a federal health care program. The good part about this is that most people will have health care, but the bad part is that the government is employing more fascist economic techniques by using the public and private sector's money to pay for a program which will essentially be competition against private healthcare. Everything I've heard has said this will lead to increased healthcare costs, not reduced ones. I guess I just find it scary that the government is now running GMC which is running Ford (who took no federal money) out of business, and soon enough healthcare which will be competing with private healthcare. This is what is called the 'corporate state' (-I.E. Benito Mussolini). __________________ Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do No matter what I ask of you You think you hold the high hand I've got my doubts I come from Chino where the asphalt sprouts ..... And even if I have to go to Claremont Well I guess I'll just have to go to Claremont Let me go Let me lie low Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do No matter what I ask of you And you send your dark messengers to tempt me I come from Chino so all your threats are empty - the mountain goats

07-20-2009, 07:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,468 Thanks: 229 Thanked 665 Times in 443 Posts	GMC and Ford should have made better cars. And Doctors shouldn't have been so greedy. It's the next step...it doesn't mean it's going there, its too early to tell, but we have to stay vigilant. Honestly, with the way people are getting involved more and more, I can't ever forsee it turning into something that out of control. And if we got through the Bush Admin, this seems like a cakewalk. At least it's about Healthcare and not Torture. __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

07-20-2009, 08:23 PM	#16 (permalink)
scottishbastard ARGH! FUCK! KILL! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Castaic/Los Angeles California BITCHES! Posts: 1,954 Thanks: 32 Thanked 69 Times in 60 Posts	I don't think extremely liberal is any better than extremely conservative...excep t in the sense that we may not be at constant war the next 4-8 years, but even that seems unlikely. And here's the thing, yeah American cars suck for the most part. This is why we need to let them fail, or figure out their shit. If they need federal intervention to even exist, what is the point? Ford may make crap cars, but they took no bailout money and had a small increase in revenue recently. GM now is now a government run auto company and is most likely going to suceed at putting ford out of business. If ford is going to go down, atleast let it happen because of their faults, not GM's. __________________ Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do No matter what I ask of you You think you hold the high hand I've got my doubts I come from Chino where the asphalt sprouts ..... And even if I have to go to Claremont Well I guess I'll just have to go to Claremont Let me go Let me lie low Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do No matter what I ask of you And you send your dark messengers to tempt me I come from Chino so all your threats are empty - the mountain goats

07-20-2009, 08:27 PM	#17 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,734 Thanks: 1,831 Thanked 497 Times in 355 Posts	ok well IF , and its a big if IF healthcare should be a right. it DEFINATELY should not be paid for by taxes on only a small percentage of society (and whether it makes logical sense to kill small business and business owners who will then not hire people and damage the economy further remains to be seen or is a personal question - but its still WRONG), we could go to mars by 2025 if we taxed the rich 5%, which would u rather have humans on MARS? or free healthcare for the poor? money can do lots of cool things, that doesnt give the gov't the right to take more and more of it and make taxes the highest they've been in a generation...

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07-20-2009, 08:53 PM	#19 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,734 Thanks: 1,831 Thanked 497 Times in 355 Posts	to continue scotishbastards analogy. what a public healthcare option will do is as follows first it will be far less expensive than private options for 2 reasons: 1 it is worse and less inclusive and provides less choice than private plans. and 2. it will be subsidized by rich people taxes. now this plan will go on the market and employers will immediately force their workers to take it in one way or another, whether overtly or through subversive means. then once the private companies have only a tiny amount of customers because the "average joes" will be on gov't subsidized care, the private companies will have to raise their rates and reduce care levels to compete- then more people will go to the gov't. sponosored gov't regulated. and taxpayer funded! heath care option. eventually this process will dillute private providers and make it almost impossible for workers to get anything but the public plan. and then we will have a system that is only sustainable by continuing to tax the rich more and more and more to pay for the shortfalls of the system, despite the fact that the system itself will have less choice, lower quality, longer waits and higher costs. its just like buying a GM car, seriously, thats a perfect analogy in some ways. no one bys GMs, so lets have rich people pay 4,000 per gm car to make them cheaper....the only problem is Japan can make them for 4,000 cheaper WITHOUT taxing their citizens, so in the end, we arent competing any better at all- we've simply SUBSIDIZED LOW QUALITY AND FAILURE. its also similar to how iran keeps oil prices low domestically for political gain.... fuck yourself in the long run for poltiical benefit in the short run. go Obama~! Last edited by John F. Kerry; 07-20-2009 at 11:18 PM.

07-20-2009, 10:42 PM	#20 (permalink)
HTAM Old School Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,872 Thanks: 2,368 Thanked 2,117 Times in 1,179 Posts	I think it's interesting that there is a GRIP of cash going out of this country everyday for the benefit of other countries and it's citizens. There's a lot of money there, and a daily haircut in spending across the board could fund TPO......for this countries citizens. The Public Option is supposedly similiar to Medicare for Seniors. The hospitals and Doctors are already accepting that. But some don't. There are plenty of clinics around me that will take cash from you for a visit. Around a $100.00, walk in or appointment, without insurance. A $100.00 for a general office visit and a script or two. Really? That's what insurance companies pay? It sounds like TPO wants to mandate that everyone accept it if they want to continue with Medicare, and wants to tie the rates to Medicare rates. And that's where the insurance companies stand to lose, and likely, why they are fighting this. All of a sudden they are dealing with competition that can take away their current pool of customers they bill to provide coverage for. Really, does anyone think it's reasonable to pay $100.00 for the visit alone? Never mind the 'scripts...