STALIN-CARE- the vid michael moore and the democrats didnt show you... - Page 3

scottishbastard · 07-29-2009, 01:20 AM

The wait times in this country are here for the same reason there are wait times in Canada. It's because we do stupid shit like give free surgery to any gangbanger illegal immigrant coming in with a gunshot wound. It's because we give free healthcare (medical etc) to low income people at the cost of the people who actually pay. And all the people illegal or not who come into emergency rooms for the flu because they can't afford insurance.
Healthcare in this country should be for people who pay for it. Healthcare is NOT a right. We never said it was. It's horrible that poor people get sick, but do we fuck it up for everyone else because of a tragedy? Now people who pay for their healthcare/get it from their work are waiting in 16 hour lines at the E.R.
What's worse...To have over half the population taken care of in a timely fashion while the rest have to find another way? Or having it so everyone has to wait during critical times and get rushed, sub-par health care?
I don't have insurance, so if I get shot or get cancer I realize that it's my problem. When did it become everybodies problem to cure the world of all their ailments? Maybe when money and greed are no longer factors in human nature we can have a system like this. But not now. Not in these times.
Why should the people who can afford healthcare suffer at the cost of people who can't? What kind of liberty is that, to be at the hands of the unfourtunate?

If you know you can't afford insurance then how about getting a free/cheap education at one of our many public schools/community colleges? How about moving to a country where you can get free health care? You shouldn't be able to come here for our freedom and opportunities and then when you get sick, denounce the system you have been here for all along. America is not "Do what you want whenever you want-land". It's not the land of milk and honey. It began as a place for liberty from state and from a forced religion. Freedom has a price. One part of that price is we must rely on ourselves and our families and not impose on other's freedom. I'm sorry that people get sick and die. But it's a part of life. We can't give up the little bits of freedom we have left to save the world.
I've said it before and I'll say it again..We are NOT LIVE AID.

Being · 07-29-2009, 02:43 AM

need i refer back to the definition of selfishness?

Ego Tripping · 07-29-2009, 07:18 PM

Double post because this is damn important:

My girlfriend recently did some research and found some stuff that I find quite compelling, including an amazing interview with Maggie Mahar on NPR, who actually is one person who took the time to read the 1000 page bill! Here's an excerpt:

Quote:

I invite you to take a listen to the near 20 minute discussion that Terry Gross of Fresh Air had with Maggie Mahar, a Century Foundation fellow and author of Money-Driven Medicine: The Real Reason Healthcare Costs So Much, as well as former financial journalist for Institutional Investor, The New York Times, Barron’s and Bloomberg, writer of the Healthbeat blog, a Century Foundation project, and contributor to Dartmouth Medicine, covering Medicare spending and the possibility of reform. Here is a link to the npr interview: The Costs Of Health Care, Political And Financial : NPR

I’ve included a few key points from the interview that I found worth sharing. The most prominent of which was Ms. Mahar’s response to why, in her opinion, health care doesn’t work when left up to free market capitalism, as most of our society here in the U.S. is. She says,

“In health care, market forces don’t bring prices down. We’ve seen that everything becomes more expensive every year: drugs, hospital stays. In other markets, the consumer has the power to bring prices down as producers compete with each because the consumer can say, you know, that laptop is a little expensive. I’m going to wait until a competitor, a rival, comes out with a less-expensive laptop that will meet my needs.

When you’re sick, you can’t say I’ll wait until a less-expensive cancer drug comes out. Eighty percent of our health care dollars are spent on patients who are seriously ill, suffering from chronic diseases like cancer. They don’t have the choice to wait.

They need what they need at that moment, and so they can’t help bring prices down by comparison shopping, by putting off the purchase, by any of those things. They essentially have to take whatever it is that the doctor or the hospital tells them that they need at that time.”

Ms. Mahar, also stressed that we need a shift from quantity of care (which is the current system, because it determines how much income doctors, hospitals and drug companies make) to one that emphasizes quality which she defines as “ good outcomes.” She says that in the quantity model tests and treatments are ordered that “provide no benefit” but expose patients to risks. She reminds us that “Up until now, insurers have largely focused on keeping their costs down, and not so much on encouraging the highest-quality care from their providers. But that is going to have to be their focus if they want to compete with the public sector option and survive.”

I didn't know it included Dental and Vision, did anyone else? Listen to the interview, I'm sure it will help many understand a) how this is a legitimate problem and b) the proposed bill is not as bad as some media outlets are making it...and this woman actually wants real reform...not like that dude in the video who obviously went into the entire situation on a mission to try to find fault in universal health care (and hey, guess what he found!

).

Being · 07-30-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottishbastard

If you know you can't afford insurance then how about getting a free/cheap education at one of our many public schools/community colleges? How about moving to a country where you can get free health care? You shouldn't be able to come here for our freedom and opportunities and then when you get sick, denounce the system you have been here for all along. America is not "Do what you want whenever you want-land". It's not the land of milk and honey. It began as a place for liberty from state and from a forced religion. Freedom has a price. One part of that price is we must rely on ourselves and our families and not impose on other's freedom. I'm sorry that people get sick and die. But it's a part of life. We can't give up the little bits of freedom we have left to save the world.
I've said it before and I'll say it again..We are NOT LIVE AID.

because the wealthiest have earned it so well and honestly without the rest of the country's help....

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/bu...wt&twt=nytimes

Quote:

738 bankers and traders at Citigroup took home bonuses of $1 million or more in 2008 even as the bank posted a $27.7 billion loss. In all, Citigroup paid $5.33 billion in bonuses; it received $45 billion in bailout funds.

Bank of America and Merrill Lynch, whose merger brought the combined company to the brink of collapse, paid 868 employees bonuses worth at least $1 million. Both banks, whose compensation packages are being reviewed by a federal pay czar, turned to the government twice for bailouts, receiving a total of $45 billion.

Merrill’s bonuses totaled $3.6 billion in a year that it lost $27.6 billion, the report said, while Bank of America paid $3.3 billion in bonuses on $4 billion in earnings.

Wall Street’s more profitable firms were more generous, even though they also received government support. At Goldman Sachs, 953 bankers and traders took home bonuses worth at least $1 million last year, including 212 employees who received more than $3 million. The investment bank paid a total of $4.8 billion in bonuses last year, the report said, more than twice its earnings of $2.3 billion. The bank got $10 billion in bailout funds.

Morgan Stanley paid nearly 428 employees bonuses of at least $1 million, including 290 who received more than $2 million. Morgan Stanley, which earned $1.7 billion last year and received $10 billion in federal aid, paid $4.5 billion in bonuses.

JPMorgan Chase paid 1,626 employees bonuses of more than $1 million in 2008 and received $25 billion in federal assistance. The bank earned $5.6 billion, while its bonuses totaled $8.69 billion.

(had to double post, both threads are defended with same broken logic)

Ego Tripping · 07-30-2009, 07:32 PM

Hate to play devil's advocate (

) but J, don't you have anything to say in response? Did you listen to the interview link I posted?

John F. Kerry · 07-30-2009, 09:27 PM

unless your are out shopping for opinions to fit your prior belief i dont know how you can think a women who writes a book entitled "how money driven medicine doesnt work" could be looked at as an objective source.

let me tell you why I think money driven medicine does work -because 80% of people who have healthcare are very satisfied with it- thats a higher rate then for almost anything they measure of satisfaction... so its nice that this women raises some points, and i heard them and value the views etc... but in the end i disagree completely with them.

the main problem with healthcare are the bad practices of insurance companies and the fact that 50 million people dont have insurace.

a much smaller concern is the rising cost of healthcare- BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS RISING IN COST- its not something THAT WE CAN DO ANYTHING ABOUt- or more accurately, its not something that doing anything about wiill have much effect on- so if you wanna talk about saving a bit here or a bit there great- but dont delude people into thinking a government could dole out health benefits better than the private sector because the government has never been able to do ANYTHING better than the private sector.

good heathcare is expensive. we can either make expensive care more availible to people who cant afford it- OR we can make healthcare SHITTY and CHEAP and they'll be able to afford it.

thats what i think. and i was talking about this issue 2 weeks ago now turn on fox OR MSNBC and u get the most ridiculous arguments ive ever heard- BOTH SIDES are interested only in helping their fringe groups on the sides ( "progressives" or "right wingers")

what we need is a plan with wide bipartisan support, thats the only sort of plan that will be likely to maybe do some good without totaly destroying what we have.

Being · 07-30-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

because 80% of people who have healthcare are very satisfied with it

I disagree 100% and would love to know how that statistic was conjured

Quote:

a much smaller concern is the rising cost of healthcare- BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS RISING IN COST- its not something THAT WE CAN DO ANYTHING ABOUt

When you look at the ratio of how much a person total income is spent on healthcare as to how much they make, it has changed immensely, negating the inflation point.

Quote:

good heathcare is expensive. we can either make expensive care more availible to people who cant afford it- OR we can make healthcare SHITTY and CHEAP and they'll be able to afford it.

There is a smidgen of truth to this, but when you provide an option for competition to private sector insurance, they will have to stop the IMMENSE profit margins they are enjoying. What was that statistic one CEO gets 1 in ever $100 spent on healthcare in the entire US or something like that? Thats an outrageous profit margin for anything, let alone something that effect peoples ability to live.

Quote:

thats what i think. and i was talking about this issue 2 weeks ago now turn on fox OR MSNBC and u get the most ridiculous arguments ive ever heard- BOTH SIDES are interested only in helping their fringe groups on the sides ( "progressives" or "right wingers")

I disagree. From what I have seen, Obama and most (Not all) of the supporters of figuring out the healthcare reform have been open to debate and modifications, as long as it gets done. Conservatives refuse to do anything and continue to nay-say as anything that the liberals want to do and don't get accomplished, they feel will negatively effect the liberals.

Quote:

what we need is a plan with wide bipartisan support, thats the only sort of plan that will be likely to maybe do some good without totaly destroying what we have.

I agree, and I don't think Obama or most (not all) of the proponents of the healthcare reform wish for the exact same thing. Hence the reason they have admitted that its not the final version of how things will work, but need both sides to help to figure it out.

I'm not an Obama fanatic, I didn't vote for him. But what he is doing compared to what nay-sayers are doing is pretty much a god send. Willing to concede to the other side to get things done. THat is something conservatives and GOP alike refuse to do as they know their demographic got dealt a huge blow with the loss of the election, and believe negatively effecting the country for their own gain is worth it.

John F. Kerry · 07-30-2009, 10:32 PM

u can argue the same thing for any industry dude, communism didnt work marxism didnt work they didnt allow for any incentives or innovation or quality control or efficiency.

im telling you, u can complain all day about the greed of oil company execs or insurance company execs. but all it makes u seem like is that u are about class warfare and shit.

the huge salaries ceos of insurance companies get are not enough to give the 50 million people who dont have health insurance health insurance... its just a blame the rich game.

just like there was antitrust regulation there needs to be some kinds of regulation to tell insurance companies what they can and cannot do - but then u gotta let the market work its way if u ever hope to have quality and a reasonable price. the free market is something ill argue in favor of all day and all night long because its clearly the best way, inarguably the best way, and any debate should be focused on how to fix the free market healthcare system

honestly if we come up with an equitable fix to private healthcare not only does it have the potential to work extremely well, but i wouldnt be surprised if 10 years down the line some euro countries and canada consider switching over to a private heathcare system - once they see how well we americans can make the free market work when we put our minds to it....

John F. Kerry · 07-30-2009, 10:38 PM

if u cant find equal blame for both sides in this debate then u really must be on one of the sides- conservatives dont want to do "nothing" they dont want to do what progressives want because they dont think it will work- its not even that they dont want to pay higher taxes altho maybe thats why some of them oppose it- they really believe (and i do too) that a public healthcare system will not be better than the status quo.

prove to me that it will, by obamas estimates it will be revenue netural for at least the next 10 years (meaning no better than the status quo). by the logic of having more people in a program that doesnt cost anymore it stands to reason that the care will be worse per person or at least no better than it is now.

so conservatives would prefer the status quo (where many many people are satisfied with their health care) to a systme that changes the care for EVERYONE- even those many people who like it-

in that way progressives really are the arrogrant and bastardly ones- they dont want to let people have the healthcare they have enjoyed for decades- they think that only by taking it away from the people who have been paying for it all along can they "equalize" things in favor of the poor- that to me seems not only a rude and unbipartisan solution , but ultimately one that will prove ineffective at the very goals they seek to advance.

Ego Tripping · 07-30-2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

so conservatives would prefer the status quo (where many many people are satisfied with their health care) to a systme that changes the care for EVERYONE- even those many people who like it-

As Being stated...facts, statistics, actual substance behind this statement is required or else is hearsay and moot. Come on, j.

John F. Kerry · 07-30-2009, 11:17 PM

didnt you see my link to the poll in the other thread for the 80% satisfied or very satisfied with their healthcare among those people who had private healthcare taken last october? I linked to it in the other thread, if thats your only problem with my post ill take it as a compliment. but more to the point id rather have a discussion then a game of gotcha.

**testclear.com** · 07-30-2009, 11:20 PM

You decide for yourself if health care is broken.

In May an employee had a racing heartbeat while at the park with friends. The rapid heartbeat continued and 911 was called. Ambulance arrived and took him to the nearest hospital 5 miles away. He got a bill from the ambulance company for 11 grand. Insurance will take care of most of it but he has to pay over 3 grand. That is $2,200 per mile.

In addition the disparity of pay between general practitioners and specialist are enormous. Specialist make between 5 to 6 times more than general practitioners.

Does this sound reasonable to you?

John F. Kerry · 07-30-2009, 11:26 PM

thats one of the "bastardly things insurace companies do" that im talking about.

there could EAISILY be a bipartisan bill on this if it did about 2 things

1. find some way without class warfare to get poor people somewhat inexpensive private health care.

2. make new laws for insurance companies that they can't continue the worst excesses they have done in the past and do lawyerly things to screw over their customers- no denying coverage, making healthcare costs not go up more than a certain inflation linked metric every year, no dropping people, etc... cure the worst exceses- let the insurance cos take somewhat of a hit and let the market ultimately determine what is a fair price for people to pay for INSURANCE- a new private insurance with many more implcit guarentees etc...

... thats it pretty much - all we need- not a federal beurocracy of health, not rationing of health care, none of the liberal communist fascist things that really only a few Pelosi, Waxman, Rengel, and the rest of those far out lefters support.

thats really all we need- let the private market do what it does- and whack it harder with a stick when it does too much of what it does-

eventually perhaps just perhaps people will learn to become more responsible and caring for each other-and then utopia will ensue, with the FREE MARKET

Being · 07-31-2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

didnt you see my link to the poll in the other thread for the 80% satisfied or very satisfied with their healthcare among those people who had private healthcare taken last october? I linked to it in the other thread, if thats your only problem with my post ill take it as a compliment. but more to the point id rather have a discussion then a game of gotcha.

most polls don't prove shit. most polls poll a select few people who usually are better off to do anyways, so the poll has a very high possibility of being massively flawed. If you were to post many polls, from different sources, with big voting bases, I might agree. But one poll from one source doesn't work for me, sorry, because my own personal poll says the exact opposite. Its just who you happen to contact.

While the things you want to happen, everyone wants, this 'class warfare' thing is getting tired and old and totally irrelevant imo. Its not class warfare, its common care for your common citizens. LIke i have said before, without that lower class, the upper class will have no one to make massive profit margins off of.

Why not consider a temporary public option as this catalyst for what you want to happen, happen. And btw, its only a proposal, healthcare reform proponents (notice they are healthcare reform proponents, not public option proponents, its just the biggest catalyst available) are open for discussion and change. In my opinion, the public care option is still the fastest and biggest catalyst available, and doesn't need to be this huge scary monster everyone is thinking about. All it needs to be is an option to get the private insurance in check.

Saying you don't want big government, yet you want to impose many laws to achieve what you want to achieve.

stoneric · 07-31-2009, 10:04 AM

The poll was taken last October. Millions have lost their jobs since and now have no health care or they have downgraded considerably. Also many companies have asked their employees for concessions(mine's one)where the health benefits have taken the brunt of the cost cutting.

stoneric · 07-31-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

2. make new laws for insurance companies that they can't continue the worst excesses they have done in the past and do lawyerly things to screw over their customers- no denying coverage, making healthcare costs not go up more than a certain inflation linked metric every year, no dropping people, etc... cure the worst exceses- let the insurance cos take somewhat of a hit and let the market ultimately determine what is a fair price for people to pay for INSURANCE- a new private insurance with many more implcit guarentees etc...

Isn't this a form of socialism?

John F. Kerry · 07-31-2009, 10:55 AM

look what happened when jimmy carter blamed the oil companies for causing the price of oil to be too high- and passed a windfall profits tax on them-

the industry languished for 20 years, no new investment, no new exploration, and that ultimately caused oil prices to go from 50 a barrel to 150 a barrel in about 1 year around 2006

the government told the oil companies "we want you to provide the same service but to make less money" - and not surprisingly, it didnt work- they found ways to cut exploration budgets etc and SET US UP FOR THE 3x price increase that was to follow.

Anyone who cant see how this applies to healthcare let me spell it out:

tell the healthcare companies the following (like the dems are trying to) "you are too greedy so what we want to do is force you to provide the same services to people for less money and make sure you dont lower teh quality"

that is never gonna happen, and it will lead the insurance cos to cut corners whereever they think they can get away with it and ultimately it will SET US UP for huge price increases in the future.

so much money changes hands every day in the us, to say that the profit motive ruins health care is just ludacrous- it doenst ruin computers, or beer, or cigarettes or cars or groceries - why shouldnt health care be an industry that can profit? all profiting is is letting the one who does that best job get the most business- and that my friends is what this country is all about-

the gov't should set the larger rules for ethical behavior, not become the next AIG.

John F. Kerry · 07-31-2009, 11:11 AM

look at this ad i saw onyoutube today-

tell me this isnt class warfare.

and i saw some pathetic move on . org ads the other day.

really i guess i just gotta learn to accept the looney left is just as crazy as the radical right,

i mean most people realize about far right wingers but i think they dont realize so much how many militant leftists there are out there who really hate our society and want to see it become more like fidels cuba.

the words in that ad really should be "who should pay for YOUR healthcare?" millionaires or you....lol

Being · 07-31-2009, 02:05 PM

A- all oil companies aren't based and solely operate in the US, they can and do make profits from other countries as well, unlike most healthcare companies.

B- The public option would help defeat exactly what you want to avoid. The gov't didn't start its own oil company, so there is no basis for comparison with that. The public option would force them to re-evaluate its practices and prices and products, as if they are not competitive enough, people would have the option to switch to public.

Healthcare isn't a product, its a service, and when companies are more interested in profit margin than actual quality of service provided, it damn sure hurts the quality and price of services. Example, people being cut from insurance for stupid, illegitimate reasons because they would cost to much to the companies.

You can bring up radicals who want to make it a class warfare, but then I can bring up just as many, if not more radicals from your side of the coin and make this whole discussion a clusterfuck of retardedness, but lets not do that, please?

The majority of proponents for healthcare reform (not just the public option) are not about this mythical 'class warfare' thing.

stoneric · 07-31-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

militant leftists there are out there who really hate our society and want to see it become more like fidels cuba.

Right out of the old playbook. Just like the Muslims, eh?

07-29-2009, 01:20 AM	#41 (permalink)
scottishbastard ARGH! FUCK! KILL! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Castaic/Los Angeles California BITCHES! Posts: 1,956 Thanks: 32 Thanked 67 Times in 58 Posts	The wait times in this country are here for the same reason there are wait times in Canada. It's because we do stupid shit like give free surgery to any gangbanger illegal immigrant coming in with a gunshot wound. It's because we give free healthcare (medical etc) to low income people at the cost of the people who actually pay. And all the people illegal or not who come into emergency rooms for the flu because they can't afford insurance. Healthcare in this country should be for people who pay for it. Healthcare is NOT a right. We never said it was. It's horrible that poor people get sick, but do we fuck it up for everyone else because of a tragedy? Now people who pay for their healthcare/get it from their work are waiting in 16 hour lines at the E.R. What's worse...To have over half the population taken care of in a timely fashion while the rest have to find another way? Or having it so everyone has to wait during critical times and get rushed, sub-par health care? I don't have insurance, so if I get shot or get cancer I realize that it's my problem. When did it become everybodies problem to cure the world of all their ailments? Maybe when money and greed are no longer factors in human nature we can have a system like this. But not now. Not in these times. Why should the people who can afford healthcare suffer at the cost of people who can't? What kind of liberty is that, to be at the hands of the unfourtunate? If you know you can't afford insurance then how about getting a free/cheap education at one of our many public schools/community colleges? How about moving to a country where you can get free health care? You shouldn't be able to come here for our freedom and opportunities and then when you get sick, denounce the system you have been here for all along. America is not "Do what you want whenever you want-land". It's not the land of milk and honey. It began as a place for liberty from state and from a forced religion. Freedom has a price. One part of that price is we must rely on ourselves and our families and not impose on other's freedom. I'm sorry that people get sick and die. But it's a part of life. We can't give up the little bits of freedom we have left to save the world. I've said it before and I'll say it again..We are NOT LIVE AID. __________________ Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do No matter what I ask of you You think you hold the high hand I've got my doubts I come from Chino where the asphalt sprouts ..... And even if I have to go to Claremont Well I guess I'll just have to go to Claremont Let me go Let me lie low Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do No matter what I ask of you And you send your dark messengers to tempt me I come from Chino so all your threats are empty - the mountain goats

07-30-2009, 07:32 PM	#45 (permalink)
Ego Tripping Are you in? Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 13,461 Thanks: 229 Thanked 657 Times in 438 Posts	Hate to play devil's advocate () but J, don't you have anything to say in response? Did you listen to the interview link I posted? __________________ God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day.

07-30-2009, 11:20 PM	#52 (permalink)
testclear.com Truth Seeker Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 676 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 11 Thanked 95 Times in 47 Posts	You decide for yourself if health care is broken. In May an employee had a racing heartbeat while at the park with friends. The rapid heartbeat continued and 911 was called. Ambulance arrived and took him to the nearest hospital 5 miles away. He got a bill from the ambulance company for 11 grand. Insurance will take care of most of it but he has to pay over 3 grand. That is $2,200 per mile. In addition the disparity of pay between general practitioners and specialist are enormous. Specialist make between 5 to 6 times more than general practitioners. Does this sound reasonable to you? __________________ 142857 Visit the Ken Gorman Memorial Site - http://www.kengorman.org Follow the Ken Gorman Case on Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/KenGorman_RIP Join Ken Gorman Facebook Page http://www.facebook.com/ken.gorman.activist 1/7

07-31-2009, 11:11 AM	#58 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,643 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 454 Times in 328 Posts	look at this ad i saw onyoutube today- tell me this isnt class warfare. and i saw some pathetic move on . org ads the other day. really i guess i just gotta learn to accept the looney left is just as crazy as the radical right, i mean most people realize about far right wingers but i think they dont realize so much how many militant leftists there are out there who really hate our society and want to see it become more like fidels cuba. the words in that ad really should be "who should pay for YOUR healthcare?" millionaires or you....lol Attached Images Last edited by John F. Kerry; 08-01-2009 at 01:44 AM.

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07-30-2009, 09:27 PM	#46 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,643 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 454 Times in 328 Posts	unless your are out shopping for opinions to fit your prior belief i dont know how you can think a women who writes a book entitled "how money driven medicine doesnt work" could be looked at as an objective source. let me tell you why I think money driven medicine does work -because 80% of people who have healthcare are very satisfied with it- thats a higher rate then for almost anything they measure of satisfaction... so its nice that this women raises some points, and i heard them and value the views etc... but in the end i disagree completely with them. the main problem with healthcare are the bad practices of insurance companies and the fact that 50 million people dont have insurace. a much smaller concern is the rising cost of healthcare- BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS RISING IN COST- its not something THAT WE CAN DO ANYTHING ABOUt- or more accurately, its not something that doing anything about wiill have much effect on- so if you wanna talk about saving a bit here or a bit there great- but dont delude people into thinking a government could dole out health benefits better than the private sector because the government has never been able to do ANYTHING better than the private sector. good heathcare is expensive. we can either make expensive care more availible to people who cant afford it- OR we can make healthcare SHITTY and CHEAP and they'll be able to afford it. thats what i think. and i was talking about this issue 2 weeks ago now turn on fox OR MSNBC and u get the most ridiculous arguments ive ever heard- BOTH SIDES are interested only in helping their fringe groups on the sides ( "progressives" or "right wingers") what we need is a plan with wide bipartisan support, thats the only sort of plan that will be likely to maybe do some good without totaly destroying what we have.

07-30-2009, 10:32 PM	#48 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,643 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 454 Times in 328 Posts	u can argue the same thing for any industry dude, communism didnt work marxism didnt work they didnt allow for any incentives or innovation or quality control or efficiency. im telling you, u can complain all day about the greed of oil company execs or insurance company execs. but all it makes u seem like is that u are about class warfare and shit. the huge salaries ceos of insurance companies get are not enough to give the 50 million people who dont have health insurance health insurance... its just a blame the rich game. just like there was antitrust regulation there needs to be some kinds of regulation to tell insurance companies what they can and cannot do - but then u gotta let the market work its way if u ever hope to have quality and a reasonable price. the free market is something ill argue in favor of all day and all night long because its clearly the best way, inarguably the best way, and any debate should be focused on how to fix the free market healthcare system honestly if we come up with an equitable fix to private healthcare not only does it have the potential to work extremely well, but i wouldnt be surprised if 10 years down the line some euro countries and canada consider switching over to a private heathcare system - once they see how well we americans can make the free market work when we put our minds to it....

07-30-2009, 10:38 PM	#49 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,643 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 454 Times in 328 Posts	if u cant find equal blame for both sides in this debate then u really must be on one of the sides- conservatives dont want to do "nothing" they dont want to do what progressives want because they dont think it will work- its not even that they dont want to pay higher taxes altho maybe thats why some of them oppose it- they really believe (and i do too) that a public healthcare system will not be better than the status quo. prove to me that it will, by obamas estimates it will be revenue netural for at least the next 10 years (meaning no better than the status quo). by the logic of having more people in a program that doesnt cost anymore it stands to reason that the care will be worse per person or at least no better than it is now. so conservatives would prefer the status quo (where many many people are satisfied with their health care) to a systme that changes the care for EVERYONE- even those many people who like it- in that way progressives really are the arrogrant and bastardly ones- they dont want to let people have the healthcare they have enjoyed for decades- they think that only by taking it away from the people who have been paying for it all along can they "equalize" things in favor of the poor- that to me seems not only a rude and unbipartisan solution , but ultimately one that will prove ineffective at the very goals they seek to advance.

07-30-2009, 11:17 PM	#51 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,643 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 454 Times in 328 Posts	didnt you see my link to the poll in the other thread for the 80% satisfied or very satisfied with their healthcare among those people who had private healthcare taken last october? I linked to it in the other thread, if thats your only problem with my post ill take it as a compliment. but more to the point id rather have a discussion then a game of gotcha.

07-30-2009, 11:26 PM	#53 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,643 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 454 Times in 328 Posts	thats one of the "bastardly things insurace companies do" that im talking about. there could EAISILY be a bipartisan bill on this if it did about 2 things 1. find some way without class warfare to get poor people somewhat inexpensive private health care. 2. make new laws for insurance companies that they can't continue the worst excesses they have done in the past and do lawyerly things to screw over their customers- no denying coverage, making healthcare costs not go up more than a certain inflation linked metric every year, no dropping people, etc... cure the worst exceses- let the insurance cos take somewhat of a hit and let the market ultimately determine what is a fair price for people to pay for INSURANCE- a new private insurance with many more implcit guarentees etc... ... thats it pretty much - all we need- not a federal beurocracy of health, not rationing of health care, none of the liberal communist fascist things that really only a few Pelosi, Waxman, Rengel, and the rest of those far out lefters support. thats really all we need- let the private market do what it does- and whack it harder with a stick when it does too much of what it does- eventually perhaps just perhaps people will learn to become more responsible and caring for each other-and then utopia will ensue, with the FREE MARKET

07-31-2009, 10:04 AM	#55 (permalink)
stoneric bougeman Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 5,223 Thanks: 431 Thanked 1,246 Times in 892 Posts	The poll was taken last October. Millions have lost their jobs since and now have no health care or they have downgraded considerably. Also many companies have asked their employees for concessions(mine's one)where the health benefits have taken the brunt of the cost cutting.

07-31-2009, 10:55 AM	#57 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,643 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 454 Times in 328 Posts	look what happened when jimmy carter blamed the oil companies for causing the price of oil to be too high- and passed a windfall profits tax on them- the industry languished for 20 years, no new investment, no new exploration, and that ultimately caused oil prices to go from 50 a barrel to 150 a barrel in about 1 year around 2006 the government told the oil companies "we want you to provide the same service but to make less money" - and not surprisingly, it didnt work- they found ways to cut exploration budgets etc and SET US UP FOR THE 3x price increase that was to follow. Anyone who cant see how this applies to healthcare let me spell it out: tell the healthcare companies the following (like the dems are trying to) "you are too greedy so what we want to do is force you to provide the same services to people for less money and make sure you dont lower teh quality" that is never gonna happen, and it will lead the insurance cos to cut corners whereever they think they can get away with it and ultimately it will SET US UP for huge price increases in the future. so much money changes hands every day in the us, to say that the profit motive ruins health care is just ludacrous- it doenst ruin computers, or beer, or cigarettes or cars or groceries - why shouldnt health care be an industry that can profit? all profiting is is letting the one who does that best job get the most business- and that my friends is what this country is all about- the gov't should set the larger rules for ethical behavior, not become the next AIG.

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