verklingen

this right here might be the single most retarded statement in this thread

when i first started posting regularly in a&p i used to wonder why people always said it sucks. i'm learning now

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

Being

No kidding, THEY ARE NOT TAKING AWAY PRIVATE INSURANCE.

In case you didn't know that. Now you do. And any conspiracy theorists thinking thats what they are trying to do is insane.

And in case you didn't realize, this is what insurance companies do already. They refuse to pay for treatments, and they drop people from their coverage. Its just another ridiculous scare tactic from the nay-sayers with no solution, just political and personal motivation to have liberals defeated.


And I agree stoneric, in all reality, the majority of americans aren't satisfied with their health insurance at all, its all bullshit.

And scottish, just because the test scores are low doesn't mean its helping them out. If there wasn't the public option, they would have no education at all, which is a lot worse than minimal education. And even so, california is a bad example, look elsewhere in the country, test scores are fine. California just has never been good at budgeting or getting tax systems correct (some of the most expensive houses not paying property taxes like everyone else, for example). And your example of Somalia is still irrelevant, I thought we went over that quite a while ago in a different thread.

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R.I.P. Gov

Ego Tripping

Hannity? Is that you?!

You didn't answer a god damned thing that I mentioned. Complete hearsay and recycled rhetoric.

I feel I support Obama even moreso after listening to j's drivel.

This thread is an epic fail.

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John F. Kerry

well at least your honest with your feelings.


honestly i dont think obama-care will be any better for the well off, the poor off, or the middle class, and thats why im against it.

John F. Kerry

its pretty funny because i didnt hear anyone rebut all my observations about why this plan wouldnt work,

only make a bunch of attacks that if im not on board with the obama program im stupid or selfish or all of the above.


i agree with scottishbastard somewhat but im probably a bit more moderate then he is, i see that poor people need help, but the house bill plan is not a good idea. that shouldnt piss people off unless they can tell me why they think it is a good idea- im not talking about whether its good for the poor to have health insurance (private health insurace) what i am arguing against is the way the house plan has set up the system and that it probably wont even work after all is said and done- u cant make healthcare cheap by decree- you just cant- and if u only pay for it by gouging the rich then it will keep getting more inefficient as time goes by.

you have to have some way of linking the care people get to the price they pay- or else people will always want better more expensive care-

now maybe YOU want the government to be the one deciding your medical choices- but i think private insurance can and has done it in a better more cost effective manner than anyone with even a short memory could think the government was capable of.


if u guys want to not be viewed as ideologues whos positions harden when questioned then your really not doing yourselves a service by chewing me out for expressing what i think is a widespread belief in america.- that gov't run heatlhcare will NEVER work.

John F. Kerry

when u guys say they are not taking over the health care system is that meant to be a rebuttal to me ? because if so, ill just reply, do u have any idea what your talking about?

go look at quotes from anyone from Obama to Barney Frank- they all say that they want to have a single payer government run healthcare system and that the best way to "gradually get that done" ie (to trick people who dont want that done but do it by degrees until it is done) is to have a "public option"....

did u guys read the fine print in the 1000 page bill and you can confidently tell me that private health insurance will have equal footing and the gov't will not require you to join to the public option- or that when people lose their jobs they will go on the public option bc they dont get insurance thru their employer anymore- so its PUBLIC HEALTHCARE by DEGREES. they absolutely DO want to end private healthcare and thats why all the talk is about the greedy insurance companies.... dont u see? its all class warfare leftist political bulshit-

now , to be fair, they are the party in power, and 1. the should get to govern to a certain extent, and 2. people can now see them for what they really are.


this is how democracy works- each side sucks and now we see why, so that in a short while we'll choose the lesser of two evils once again and restart the gop machine.

John F. Kerry

for you not to call me names i basically have to say that i agree with you on this- the only problem is that its factually inaccurate.

Grieves

Isn't national healthcare a success in almost every nation it has been instituted..Provided that said nation isn't under dictatorship/3rd world...?

If that statement is wrong please by all means cite examples...

J-wonder, you use alot of emotive statements but you cite no real evidence whatsoever...

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John F. Kerry

no its not man , it really isnt. there are numerous ways american healthcare is BETTER! for the people who have private insurace (and for those who havent been reading my position from the start is that their should be a bipartisan bill to provide private health insurance, occassionally subsidized in part or even more occasionally subsidized in full by american taxpaers for the poor in society) .

so if we get everyone private insurance, instead of creating a federal beurocracy of heatlh- you preserve the following, which the democrats and nancy pelosi and henry waxman and charlie rengel want to take away from you in the name of equality.


1. there will be a seperation between your doctor and the FEDERAL FUCKING GOVERNMENT- without any further explanation I would imagine this to be a prefferable choice to most- but a short list are: the party in power will not decide what doctor you can go to - the party in power at any time will not be able to revoke benefits or change rules or deny you procedures or take the doctors from a suburban hospital and force them to go into the city where they are "more needed" according to obama or whoever is president....

2. the cost for services will remain as efficient as is possible in the market- which is by far the best measure of what is efficient- (ie not the gov't beurocracy decreeing). because despite what were being told - it wont be any less costly and very likely more costly to have public healthcare because the onus will be on the rich to pay for everyone- which will drastically decrease efficiency and drastically decrease quality for those who actually do pay for it (middle class americans)

3. changing a few provisions of insurnace law could fix almost every problem with the system - by making insurnace companies take anyone who applys, and not drop them and not raise rates by more than an inflation adjusted metric every year etcetcetc.... by using new rules to preserve free market healthcare - we will make it better AND allow the free market, not some unelected beurocrats and Nancy Pelosi determine what the costs for insurance that people need are-


so thats just a few . but there are lots more,
now tell me some advantages of public heatlhcare-

because it WILL NOT be as fair or as efficient for the people who have private care now - WE WILL HAVE MONTH LONG WAITS AND RATIONING OF HEALTH CARE JUST LIKE EVERY SOCIALIZED MEDICINE COUNTRY HAS- THE SOLUTION WE SHOULD HAVE SHOULD BE AN AMERICAN FREE MARKET SOLUTION NOT TO COPY LIBERAL SOCIALISTS IN EUROPE.

scottishbastard

Firstly, in the countries socialized medecine has "suceeded in" they have quite a smaller group of people to cover. But I wouldn't say that Cuba or Canada have suceeded, unless sucess means better than nothing.

And yes, what someone said about asking people if theyre happy with their insurance is true in a way. Most people would say they're happy with it, but it's a rip off. But do you think it will get any better with Obama-Care? They will be subsidizing the costs of National healthcare by taxing the hell out of private companies and private citizens. The rates for private insurance will be going up. And that's not all.
If we're going to be covering something like 50,000,000 new people with free healthcare, and don't plan on hiring any more doctors, there's only one way to support this system - and that's letting people die. It's the same thing as just letting them die, and leaving the private companies/citizens alone!

Are you people seriously content with the government running everything? Because if you are I invite you to move out of this place, and leave people with the need for liberty alone. Why don't we have them tell us what food we can sell? Or how much we have to pay for life saving drugs? How about we let them control whether we can smoke marijuana or not? How about we let the government take over the auto industry? How about we let them fuck with the free market by funding criminal banks and loan companies?
....Oh wait...we already do. Might as well just add another industry to the government's arsenal...Right?

I don't know what happened to the common sense in Americans. I don't know what happened to that need for freedom. My only advise is you guys should go move to the Netherlands or something. But please stop trying to turn the United States into a Marxist utopia. There are still tons of Americans that feel the way I do.

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Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do
No matter what I ask of you
You think you hold the high hand
I've got my doubts
I come from Chino where the asphalt sprouts
.....

And even if I have to go to Claremont
Well I guess I'll just have to go to Claremont
Let me go
Let me lie low

Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do
No matter what I ask of you
And you send your dark messengers to tempt me
I come from Chino so all your threats are empty

- the mountain goats

stoneric

You really believe the insurance lobby will allow this?

scottishbastard

I believe a lot of the wasted money is the more specific socialized medecine programs we have right now, along with all the free/lo cost clinics, condom give aways, needle exchanges etc. I'm sure it's not the whole problem, but it's not like it's helping. And how will spending more on programs like this cost us less money? I love how we just keep expanding bunk programs like this and expect them to be better. The government is just a bunch of mad scientists, doing experiments on our tax dollars. "Uh oh. That didn't work. Try more money!!!! AHAHAHAHA! Hey! Stop jacking off into the beaker Egor!".

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Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do
No matter what I ask of you
You think you hold the high hand
I've got my doubts
I come from Chino where the asphalt sprouts
.....

And even if I have to go to Claremont
Well I guess I'll just have to go to Claremont
Let me go
Let me lie low

Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do
No matter what I ask of you
And you send your dark messengers to tempt me
I come from Chino so all your threats are empty

- the mountain goats

John F. Kerry

do u guys think that the ideas that ive expressed over and over are good ?

im just curious i mean we're not gonna solve all the worlds problems in here, nor make each other see completely eye to eye.

do u think some of the ideas ive presented are good ones? do u believe the free market could eventually be made to do a really good job at taking care of heatlh care. better and fairer and more efficient then the federal beurocracy could?

i keep saying that im for everyone to have private heath insurance, am i to take it then that you people not only want people all to have health care but that you specifically want the gov't to get involved in heathcare-?
if so, what exactly do u hope the federal government "does" to improve care and lower costs- keeping in mind that in 10 years obama predicts the plan to be "revenue neutral" so not even he is deluding people into thinking the little bit saved from "preventative medicine" will be any where near enough to stem the huge and ever increasing costs of health care?

good care is expensive, we can either give everyone good care and help the poor pay for it . or we can make it shitty so that everyone can afford it. which would u want?

scottishbastard

Government involvement is rarely a good thing...

__________________


Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do
No matter what I ask of you
You think you hold the high hand
I've got my doubts
I come from Chino where the asphalt sprouts
.....

And even if I have to go to Claremont
Well I guess I'll just have to go to Claremont
Let me go
Let me lie low

Yeah but you're going to do what you wanna do
No matter what I ask of you
And you send your dark messengers to tempt me
I come from Chino so all your threats are empty

- the mountain goats

stoneric

Spending money on preventing aids and std's or unwanted pregnancies doesn't help?

John F. Kerry

im honored that harry "we lost" reid reffered to people like us as "the radical internet fear mongerers" he is afraid and angry that americans have woken up to the radical lefts attempt to take over medical care in america....

stoneric

There is no radical left in this country. And we did lose the moment we invaded.

Being

for anyone saying that we shouldn't be taking care of our fellow citizens.

in the end, its not about people caring about healthcare for others, its not. We have had MediCare for a long long time. Its about trying to defeat for political gain anything that the left/liberals want.


And j- you have presented very little ideas compared to the nay saying. You haven't really come up with a solution yourself either, just the need to defeat something.

If that is your solution, it is almost one in the same as a public option, government interference. Both ways will cost a little bit more in taxes.

Another fearmongering technique used is for them to say gov't will take over healthcare. That is not the goal at all. Its called a public option. You can get your private insurance if you want to. THe public option would create a rift in the market forces because it would be able to provide better service to people without the horrible practices used by private healthcare companies, and people would have the option to switch to it. This would effect the private healthcare companies and they would then be forced to change their policies and such. Once again, let me repeat, public option


It doesn't have to be, and changing the field of healthcare would take care of that, as private companies wouldn't be able to charge outrageous prices for bad services.


Anyways:
Did anyone see this? Makes sense

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R.I.P. Gov

John F. Kerry

the ad nasuem argument ive heard from liberals is that we havent presented our own ideas.


that just isnt true, but it is the best rebuttal they have

stoneric

This is also true of people WITH health insurance. Those dandy $1000 deductible and $3000 out of pocket policies that are now the norm make going to the doctor a low priority unless, like you said, it becomes life threatening.