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Old 09-14-2009, 08:56 PM   #321 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by John F. Kerry View Post
B why is it then that only 12% of brits have private care?
Where did you get this figure from? And what is the figure standing for?

I would imagine that the 12% is people who have permanent private health care, not counting people who choose to go private for individual procedures.

Maybe also because the NHS is not a lame duck, poor mans alternative. The NHS is an institution in our country, therefore most people rely on the NHS because it can deliver most of the time... when it can't, or at least can't deliver on time, the option to go private is available as long as you can afford it.

I also maintain that the private sector in the UK is thriving... even though it is seen as a second choice by the vast majority in this country... that would be a different story in the US at the moment... I think that private healthcare would remain first choice for the majority and national health care would be a sort of safety net to catch those who don't qualify for treatment, therefore the private sector in the US would remain massively more profitable than its limey counterpart.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:10 PM   #322 (permalink)
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well i guess there we have our disagreement,


if 12% of ameicans used private insurance, i would consider that by and large a socialist system (except for the tiny 12% that dont have it)

thus, if we had a socialist system it would be open to all the criticisms I and others have leveled against a socialist type system - that can be noted ad nasuem in the preceding pages.

you can call having 12% on private insurance "thriving" - i call it forced out of the market by and large by a government dictated program that costs way to much and is horribly inefficient, and in the end, while it may work for britain, could not possibly work for the us, unless "work" means lower the quality of care for those who pay taxes to increase it for others who dont.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:12 PM   #323 (permalink)
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.... so maybe u never saw that my position is to get a "safety net" just like everyone else wants- except that i dont agree that profit motive makes things evil (quite the contrary it makes them good), and i also believe small government is better, so make it a PRIVATE safety net-

whats the big problem with that?
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:20 PM   #324 (permalink)
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Buyer Beware: The Failure of Single-Payer Health Care


the pitfalls of single payer ^



and B here is another question would u say this wikipedia shit accurately describes things in the uk? guess what in america i dont have to wait 3 weeks for my first visit to a doctor, usually i have to wait less than 1 hour.
"A patient needing specialist care at a hospital or clinic, will be informed by the GP of the choice available and helped to decide. Since opting for a private hospital makes the patient liable for fees, most choose a free NHS hospital. GP's inform hospitals of their patient's conditions and the hospitals judge the urgency of each against other patients, with urgent need being met almost immediately and others getting appointments. The median wait time for a consultant led first appointment in English hospitals is a little over 3 weeks. "

Healthcare in England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

in there is also the part about the small number of brits on private care .... "competing" indeed.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:38 PM   #325 (permalink)
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First off, like I said... the 12% seems a bit low from where I am sitting and almost certainly discounts the amount of people who pay for individual treatments. That is the basis of most private healthcare in the UK, not many people are permanently private... but a large amount of people will go private for certain things. A massive amount of the private sector's profits come from people going private for an operation that is needed rather than lifetime subscription.

I also think that calling the NHs horribly inefficient is not true at all... not as efficient as private healthcare, but that is not the point. The point is that the NHS provides adequate and often outstanding healthcare to the people including vulnerable people who would be simply cast aside by a system that who's motives are purely proft orientated.

That is not to say that profit oriented healthcare is bad... I think quite the contrary, the US healthcare system has made huge contributions to our species' ability to cure and care for and prevent ill health due to the fact that it has a massive amount of money to invest in research compared to the rest of the world... this is one problem I have with the NHS in our country, it is generally underfunded especially in the fields of research, research science in our country/the EU rely too heavily on charity I think.

I still have a massive problem with the fact that so many people in the US oppose free healthcare for those who desperately need it. It is inhumane and selfish to put your own financial needs before the health of others. I also think that using the word socialist is purely a scaremongering tactic as the US is well known for having a panic attack every time the s word is mentioned (even though it is usually taken out of context and, as someone mentioned earlier, most people who rant about socialism don't fully understand what it means)

Apologies, I have not read the whole thread, and missed your private safety net suggestion along with most of your criticisms of a socialist medicare system. From the name alone, a private safety net sounds like it would cost money... this is sort of missing the point of providing a safety net for people who don't have any. (Again, apologies if this is not what you mean)
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:41 PM   #326 (permalink)
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Buyer Beware: The Failure of Single-Payer Health Care


the pitfalls of single payer ^



and B here is another question would u say this wikipedia shit accurately describes things in the uk? guess what in america i dont have to wait 3 weeks for my first visit to a doctor, usually i have to wait less than 1 hour.
"A patient needing specialist care at a hospital or clinic, will be informed by the GP of the choice available and helped to decide. Since opting for a private hospital makes the patient liable for fees, most choose a free NHS hospital. GP's inform hospitals of their patient's conditions and the hospitals judge the urgency of each against other patients, with urgent need being met almost immediately and others getting appointments. The median wait time for a consultant led first appointment in English hospitals is a little over 3 weeks. "

Healthcare in England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

in there is also the part about the small number of brits on private care .... "competing" indeed.


Fair enough, this is what happens when healthcare is free... but if I wanted to see a doctor within the hour I could... probably cheaper to do that in the US, but still I could do that if my life depended on it.

Plus the US system would inherently be different than the UK, you are a different society with differnet ways of doing things and also the opportunity to learn from the mistakes and pitfalls of the UK NHS.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:48 PM   #327 (permalink)
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Fair enough, this is what happens when healthcare is free... .
exactly!

but ill respond to some more of ur points in a little while props on the substantive discussing!
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:53 AM   #328 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by John F. Kerry View Post

if 12% of ameicans used private insurance, i would consider that by and large a socialist system (except for the tiny 12% that dont have it)

thus, if we had a socialist system it would be open to all the criticisms I and others have leveled against a socialist type system - that can be noted ad nasuem in the preceding pages.
We could have a system that works but if only 12% of the people had private insurance you'd be against this because we would then be labled socialist. You are a tool.
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:47 PM   #329 (permalink)
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If you corner him with logic or facts, he changes the subject. If you ask for stats or support for his arguments, he tells you to find it.
Good lord thank you...I thought it was just me.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:39 PM   #330 (permalink)
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its funny because i heard some acorn supporters telling their people at one of those demonstrations how to "deal with the tea baggers" - it went "everytime they say something just be like oh well i need to see the stat because thats just a lie and misinformation, its the pefect way to get these righties to shut up because we can just keep saying oh prove it and oh thats not true and they wont know what to do to rebutt it"

so keep on keeping on guys,


but if u support socialized medicine so much i would think u could explain why with all sorts of reasons- just totaly destroy me with your reasoning.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:49 PM   #331 (permalink)
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As stupid as the tea brain protesters are, they've managed to to really put the breaks on all this obama-care nonsense. For that, I am grateful. Single payer is dead. The public option is on life support if not already dead. This country doesnt want socialized medicine. Lets kill all this tort nonsense, cut some costs, and get back to business as usual. Salud!
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:05 PM   #332 (permalink)
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^^I agree with most of that except the business as usual part.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:13 AM   #333 (permalink)
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And the majority of americans do want a public option.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:20 AM   #334 (permalink)
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An Honest Display of Lying

Commuters jammed the train. As one commuter exited, another immediately sat down next to me.

"Oh, it's you," he said. "I remember you. "

I remembered him too.

"Listen," he said, opening his laptop. "I'm not interested in discussing politics with you. We have different points of view. You're not going to convince me of anything and I'm probably not going to change your mind either."

I nodded. He was right. What's the point of having a discussion with someone when you already know the outcome? I looked out the window, content to count the rapidly passing trees.

He turned to me, "So, what did you think of your boy Obama's speech the other night?"

My boy Obama? "I thought you didn't want to discuss politics."

"I don't. I was just wondering what you thought about his speech. He went on and on -- must've been 45 minutes. "

"You want my opinion on the length of his speech?"

"Never mind." He turned his attention back to his computer screen.

"What was your opinion of the Congressman from South Carolina, Joe Wilson, yelling "You lie!" at the President." I asked him.

"It may not have been appropriate, but it was an honest display of emotion."

"So if someone assaults someone who they disagree with, the fact that it was an honest display of emotion ought to square things?" I asked. "That wouldn't fly in a courtroom. Sorry I shot those people, your honor, but it was an honest display of emotion."

"You're making a big deal out of a little outburst," he said dismissively.

"It would be more credible if Wilson and others like him showed their distaste of government sponsored health care by giving up their own government sponsored health care."

"He said he was sorry, what more do you want?" he countered.

"I'm sorry I had sex with your wife said your neighbor."

"That's offensive."

"It's offensive that an elected official behaved like a drunk in a barroom during a Presidential speech. Whether you agree with him or not, Obama is the president and there is supposed to be a respect for that office. You talk about family values and role models, what kind of message is his behavior sending?" I asked.

"This is just another example of the left trying to demonize the right."

"I admit I do have a fundamental problem with people showing up armed at town hall meetings, shouting down others who disagree then taking that same kind of disruptive behavior into a presidential speech. It stretches the boundaries of acceptable behavior. What happened to civilized debate?"

"I feel bad for Joe Wilson. He's being made an example of."

"This is the best thing that ever happened to him," I countered. "A few days ago nobody knew who he was, now everybody does. He certainly couldn't get a national reputation for his accomplishments in Congress."

"Listen, a lot of people just want their America back," He was agitated.

"Are you talking about the Navajos?"

"I'm talking about almost two and a half million people who showed up in Washington to protest health care reform and the direction of this administration." He was getting more agitated.

"Where did you come up with that number?"

"That was the official estimate, " he said.

"You lie!" I shouted. "Associated Press estimated the crowd to be tens of thousands, ABC news reported 60,000-70,000. Freedomworks, the organizer of the march estimated "hundreds of thousands" on their own website."

"These were estimates from bloggers who were there-"

"I guess you're right," I agreed. "People like me have been unreasonable about hearing the other side of the health care debate. What is the other side of the debate?"

"The current plan provided coverage for illegal immigrants until that was brought to light."

"You lie!" I shouted.

"I beg your pardon?"

I continued,"You lie about the plan covering illegal immigrants, you lie about health care reform leading to socialized medicine, you lie about care being denied to the elderly, you lie about the government eliminating Medicare, you lie about the President brainwashing our children-"

"That's unfair, untrue and rude-"he interrupted.

"In fact, the success of "Cash for Clunkers" is being combined with health care reform so sick old people can be traded in for younger, healthier ones. Your grandparents could end up being younger than you -- and you get a new car in the trade."

"Now you're being ridiculous-"

"Maybe if I say it loud enough and often enough people will believe it - it works for you."

He angrily snapped his laptop shut.

"There are legitimate questions about the costs," I said, "how it will be paid for, what services would be affected, how it will be implemented, what is included, what isn't - rational questions for a rational discussion-"

"I'm not interested in your idea of rational discussion." He got up to leave as the train screeched to a halt. "Our country is at risk of a government takeover of our health care system."

"I agree with you."

He looked back at me, puzzled. "You agree?"

"I agree that you're not interested in having a rational discussion."

He turned away, muttering, "You lie," under his breath.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:45 AM   #335 (permalink)
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the issue boils down this way:

there are some 45 million people who cannot access a level of care that could prevent the costly reparations required when these people inevitably end up visiting the emergency room. there are other costs involved, including the cost to businesses as their employees are unable to work proficiently or at all due to sickness or chronic medical conditions.

the only arguments leveled against the public option are omgz socialismsss and that it will drive insurance companies out of business by providing services for a cost that private enterprise cannot compete with, and that therefor all businesses will inevitably switch over to the public plan for its employees.

firstly, if the system works and actually provides good care i fail to see how that would be a bad thing. secondly, the charge of insurance companies being unable to compete lacks any semblance of logic, and neither is there any evidence indicating that that may be the case. in fact, there is evidence against this assertion in our country's vibrant private university system which continues thrive alongside a strong public university system.

if something else needs to be considered please point it out. and no, socialism is not a valid answer
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:45 AM   #336 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kompressor View Post
An Honest Display of Lying

Commuters jammed the train. As one commuter exited, another immediately sat down next to me.

"Oh, it's you," he said. "I remember you. "

I remembered him too.

"Listen," he said, opening his laptop. "I'm not interested in discussing politics with you. We have different points of view. You're not going to convince me of anything and I'm probably not going to change your mind either."

I nodded. He was right. What's the point of having a discussion with someone when you already know the outcome? I looked out the window, content to count the rapidly passing trees.

He turned to me, "So, what did you think of your boy Obama's speech the other night?"

My boy Obama? "I thought you didn't want to discuss politics."

"I don't. I was just wondering what you thought about his speech. He went on and on -- must've been 45 minutes. "

"You want my opinion on the length of his speech?"

"Never mind." He turned his attention back to his computer screen.

"What was your opinion of the Congressman from South Carolina, Joe Wilson, yelling "You lie!" at the President." I asked him.

"It may not have been appropriate, but it was an honest display of emotion."

"So if someone assaults someone who they disagree with, the fact that it was an honest display of emotion ought to square things?" I asked. "That wouldn't fly in a courtroom. Sorry I shot those people, your honor, but it was an honest display of emotion."

"You're making a big deal out of a little outburst," he said dismissively.

"It would be more credible if Wilson and others like him showed their distaste of government sponsored health care by giving up their own government sponsored health care."

"He said he was sorry, what more do you want?" he countered.

"I'm sorry I had sex with your wife said your neighbor."

"That's offensive."

"It's offensive that an elected official behaved like a drunk in a barroom during a Presidential speech. Whether you agree with him or not, Obama is the president and there is supposed to be a respect for that office. You talk about family values and role models, what kind of message is his behavior sending?" I asked.

"This is just another example of the left trying to demonize the right."

"I admit I do have a fundamental problem with people showing up armed at town hall meetings, shouting down others who disagree then taking that same kind of disruptive behavior into a presidential speech. It stretches the boundaries of acceptable behavior. What happened to civilized debate?"

"I feel bad for Joe Wilson. He's being made an example of."

"This is the best thing that ever happened to him," I countered. "A few days ago nobody knew who he was, now everybody does. He certainly couldn't get a national reputation for his accomplishments in Congress."

"Listen, a lot of people just want their America back," He was agitated.

"Are you talking about the Navajos?"

"I'm talking about almost two and a half million people who showed up in Washington to protest health care reform and the direction of this administration." He was getting more agitated.

"Where did you come up with that number?"

"That was the official estimate, " he said.

"You lie!" I shouted. "Associated Press estimated the crowd to be tens of thousands, ABC news reported 60,000-70,000. Freedomworks, the organizer of the march estimated "hundreds of thousands" on their own website."

"These were estimates from bloggers who were there-"

"I guess you're right," I agreed. "People like me have been unreasonable about hearing the other side of the health care debate. What is the other side of the debate?"

"The current plan provided coverage for illegal immigrants until that was brought to light."

"You lie!" I shouted.

"I beg your pardon?"

I continued,"You lie about the plan covering illegal immigrants, you lie about health care reform leading to socialized medicine, you lie about care being denied to the elderly, you lie about the government eliminating Medicare, you lie about the President brainwashing our children-"

"That's unfair, untrue and rude-"he interrupted.

"In fact, the success of "Cash for Clunkers" is being combined with health care reform so sick old people can be traded in for younger, healthier ones. Your grandparents could end up being younger than you -- and you get a new car in the trade."

"Now you're being ridiculous-"

"Maybe if I say it loud enough and often enough people will believe it - it works for you."

He angrily snapped his laptop shut.

"There are legitimate questions about the costs," I said, "how it will be paid for, what services would be affected, how it will be implemented, what is included, what isn't - rational questions for a rational discussion-"

"I'm not interested in your idea of rational discussion." He got up to leave as the train screeched to a halt. "Our country is at risk of a government takeover of our health care system."

"I agree with you."

He looked back at me, puzzled. "You agree?"

"I agree that you're not interested in having a rational discussion."

He turned away, muttering, "You lie," under his breath.
This about covers it.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:19 AM   #337 (permalink)
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And since when is option a bad thing to have?

It'll be here eventually...the "tea bagger" (god damn, so much irony) movement did nothing but "put the brakes" on the public option as Dub said, but it didn't turn the engine off by any means and if anything, it's caused the engine to rev and redline...and they won't be able to keep the brakes depressed forever.

There will be reform and eventually we will have the very thing they fought hard against...much like Social Security (or perhaps Socialism Security, eh?), which they are using happily and hypocritically.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:21 AM   #338 (permalink)
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i sho hope not, obama has to chose whether to please a few people in california or the broad expanse of country that is america- that didnt fight 2 world wars and a cold war to put a sickle and hammer on the american flag.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:27 AM   #339 (permalink)
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yes i hope to god obama chooses to please the 45 million people in california who can't access adequate care, and the untold numbers of seniors living there who are faced with a medicare donut hole denying them the treatments and medication that keep them alive.

/facepalm

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Old 09-16-2009, 10:58 AM   #340 (permalink)
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i like that lots of people have expressed disagrements with me , its a nice way to be able to iron out your reasoning to hear all sorts of arguments from various perspectives... thats why i do this in the first place.


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